Evidence for God from Science

Mallz wrote:

Let me ask you this then, do you believe as Christians we undergo temporal punishment due to our sins? If yes (and I certainly hope your answer is affirmative), then why do you believe God's grace was not sufficient enough to take care of that?

He Has taken care of the results of our sin, death. If anything can be related to purgatory, it's our world. He has never negated the nature of reality. Cause and effect. We are incapable of being sinless until we have our new bodies, that's part of the nature of reality. Does Jesus have to die again if we sin again after believing in Him?

Here are my own thoughts on the subject of purgatory. Upon death we will face Christ where we will have to account for our deeds good or bad. Obviously there will be great shame and discomfort (on our part) and a great deal of chastisement (on Christ's part). As to the length of "time" this will take no one really knows, not even the Catholic Church. In a paper written by former Pope Benedict he stated that it is quite possible that time frame can very well be instantaneous. Does that setting sound familiar to you? It should, it's called the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. I see purgatory along those lines. It's not a coincidence the same scripture is used in support of both.

Byblos wrote:Here are my own thoughts on the subject of purgatory. Upon death we will face Christ where we will have to account for our deeds good or bad. Obviously there will be great shame and discomfort (on our part) and a great deal of chastisement (on Christ's part). As to the length of "time" this will take no one really knows, not even the Catholic Church. In a paper written by former Pope Benedict he stated that it is quite possible that time frame can very well be instantaneous. Does that setting sound familiar to you? It should, it's called the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. I see purgatory along those lines. It's not a coincidence the same scripture is used in support of both.

I can (qualifier) agree with everything you say, except equating the Bema Seat Judgement with purgatory as I see defined as: "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." (CCC 1030)

I think the purification starts upon belief and is finished upon our transformation (new bodies). We stand as new creatures in the Bema Seat; purification done. Then onto rewards and loss of rewards due to what we have done and what we have failed to do, finding our lot for eternity which is pretty much hand in hand with our personalities.
Overall, I think we basically have the same thoughts, here. I'll just have to reject the term purgatory as it's a completely pointless term that has only effectively confused the majority of the masses on what is actually taught by the CC (a too common result of the CC).

Byblos wrote:Let me ask you this then, do you believe as Christians we undergo temporal punishment due to our sins? If yes (and I certainly hope your answer is affirmative), then why do you believe God's grace was not sufficient enough to take care of that?

I'm afraid I've no idea what this argument is about. "Why do I believe....." this or that? How do you know what I believe? Have I suggested that I believe any such thing? Crotchet said that "The concept of purgatory suggests that God's grace Isn't sufficient to take care of All our sins;" and I said that it needn't. You can have both. As I explained.

Malz wrote:We are incapable of being sinless until we have our new bodies, that's part of the nature of reality. Does Jesus have to die again if we sin again after believing in Him?

Obviously not. What was the point of your question?

Byblos wrote:As to the length of "time" this will take no one really knows, not even the Catholic Church.

I'm fairly certain that time has no meaning in this context. The medieval concept of indulgences taking 'years' off purgatory has been superceded by a much more metaphysical interpretation.

RickD wrote:Thank God we've stopped talking about that horrid Ark Encounter.

Ya -- we Have gotten a bit off topic. Do you Miss that?! What part would you like to revisit

Mallz wrote:

Byblos wrote:Here are my own thoughts on the subject of purgatory. Upon death we will face Christ where we will have to account for our deeds good or bad. Obviously there will be great shame and discomfort (on our part) and a great deal of chastisement (on Christ's part). As to the length of "time" this will take no one really knows, not even the Catholic Church. In a paper written by former Pope Benedict he stated that it is quite possible that time frame can very well be instantaneous. Does that setting sound familiar to you? It should, it's called the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. I see purgatory along those lines. It's not a coincidence the same scripture is used in support of both.

I can (qualifier) agree with everything you say, except equating the Bema Seat Judgement with purgatory as I see defined as: "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." (CCC 1030)

I think the purification starts upon belief and is finished upon our transformation (new bodies). We stand as new creatures in the Bema Seat; purification done. Then onto rewards and loss of rewards due to what we have done and what we have failed to do, finding our lot for eternity which is pretty much hand in hand with our personalities.
Overall, I think we basically have the same thoughts, here. I'll just have to reject the term purgatory as it's a completely pointless term that has only effectively confused the majority of the masses on what is actually taught by the CC (a too common result of the CC).

Maybe the term 'purification' could be replaced by 'sanctification'. Upon a person's salvation -- the Holy Spirit immediately comes to indwell us. The result is that we would become more and more Christ-like. It's the Holy Spirit working in us / convicting us / our responding to the Holy Spirit's working / that enables us to Become holier inwardly. And when we receive our glorified body -- It Will be a 'purified' body.

Mallz wrote:Then onto rewards and loss of rewards due to what we have done and what we have failed to do, finding our lot for eternity which is pretty much hand in hand with our personalities.

This suggests that you think there are some sort of 'degrees' of eternal happiness, which I think is contrary to Biblical, and is certainly contrary to Catholic teaching. The concept of Purgatory - 'sanctification' has a slightly different Biblical meaning, Crotchet, but it will do if it helps you to understand - is a levelling out of all imperfections, so that in whatever state of grace we die, we can all enjoy God's presence equally.

hughfarey wrote:This suggests that you think there are some sort of 'degrees' of eternal happiness, which I think is contrary to Biblical, and is certainly contrary to Catholic teaching. The concept of Purgatory - 'sanctification' has a slightly different Biblical meaning, Crotchet, but it will do if it helps you to understand - is a levelling out of all imperfections, so that in whatever state of grace we die, we can all enjoy God's presence equally.

1 Cor. 3:11-15
1 Corinthians 4:5
2 Cor. 5:9-10
1 Tim. 6:18-19
2 Tim. 2:5

We will all enjoy Gods presence. And He is impartial to all. By nature of what we are (individual persons) we will all be enjoyed by Him differently, making each of us special to Him, impartially. So no worry there.. But who we are is expressed by our hearts to Him and everything. We will not all receive the same rewards, not all of us will respond to overcome trials which endurance leads to more (further refinement). Not all of us will have that opportunity (think of aborted babies). I think you're equating concepts with each other, here. As if someone can't be happy because they don't have a reward someone else earned. You know there is as hierarchy, right? What do you take from Jesus's letter to John in revelations regarding the churches?

Mallz wrote: Does Jesus have to die again if we sin again after believing in Him?
Hughfarey: Obviously not. What was the point of your question?
crochet1949 wrote: The concept of purgatory suggests that God's grace Isn't sufficient to take care of All our sins.
Byblos wrote: do you believe as Christians we undergo temporal punishment due to our sins? ...why do you believe God's grace was not sufficient enough to take care of [those]?

I saw Byblos conflating affects of sin and living in sin with not having the grace of God that works with us during sanctification towards purification (which we are seen through Christ as already having, currently). And (possibly) not seeing that we are sinners with His grace and He has taken care of the eternal consequences of the sins that we will all commit in the future until we receive impeccability. The mortal effects of sin remain (and can be acquired), that's just the nature of reality, but the deaths of sins has been taken from us. We will still experience the degradation.
Hebrews 9:27
Judgement is after death, not further refinement. That has no relation on continuing to grow in a relationship with Him (which is eternal. We will never stop) and all that entails. The concept of purgatory is actually very Judaic and kabbalistic.

Well, I suppose I ought to defer to all your encyclopaedic knowledge of the exact workings of life after death. But if I were on the point of meeting my maker, I'd want to have a moment to polish my shoes...

Scripture tells us that we Won't know when we'll meet our maker -- we're supposed to be living as though it Could be Now. So we Won't have that moment to polish our shoes. If we want our shoes to look nice for 'then' -- we need to keep them nice Every day -- All the time. And there's no such thing as living in sinless perfection Now -- but -- we Do have God's gift of salvation available Now. The cross has made justification possible for whomever wants to accept it. Because of Jesus's shed blood on the cross / God sees us through His blood / just as if we'd never sinned. (justified). God sees us that way until we are with Jesus Christ with glorified bodies and That is all the purification anyone needs. God wants us 'just the way we are' He knows exactly how we look and smell inside and out. Jesus blood gives our shoes all the polishing they need. He simply wants our Heart.

I disagree.

What part don't you agree with?

I don't agree with any of it. I have a different interpretation of scripture and the nature of God than you do. That's OK by me. You are welcome to your interpretation. What you may not do is to claim that your interpretation is better than mine.

hughfarey wrote:I don't agree with any of it. I have a different interpretation of scripture and the nature of God than you do. That's OK by me. You are welcome to your interpretation. What you may not do is to claim that your interpretation is better than mine.

Hugh,

That's unrealistic. We all claim our interpretations are better than someone else's. Otherwise we wouldn't hold to our interpretation, would we?

There's nothing wrong with claiming our interpretation is better, then making an argument.

You can have your interpretation of Scripture Hugh, it's all irrelevant anyway if the words of Scripture are merely human. I don't believe the RCC has the same view of Scripture, considering it is considered inspired as a source of divine revelation. Not sure how you pair that to your naturalised God-neutering beliefs?