Understanding the Trinity

[jenna]

Jenna -- I'd like to hear Your thoughts about 'a trinity'. Why the hesitancy on your part about the trinity. God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit.

haha, i was just posting the above reply.

Here it is...

...true. the issue i have with the trinity is that God and Christ are not one, in the sense that they are one being. I believe they are separate, but are One in the sense that they are of one mind. and i do not believe the HS is part of that "one".

Look at the bible...

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened..... 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. " Rom 1:20,21,23 NASB

People change the nature of God's Glory about himself revealed all around us into an human image and concept of oneness. God's oneness is not like our own. That is where your understanding errs...

Scripture points out clearly that there is none like God. Such as..

Isa 46:5 "To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike?

Jer 10:6 There is none like You, O LORD; You are great, and great is Your name in might.

Isa 46:9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me...

Deut 33:26 "There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. all verse quoted from the NASB

You idea of God make him like any form of oneness you see. God declares his Oneness is far deeper and profound than what we can imagine.

Psalms 145:3, "Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; And His greatness is unsearchable." NKJV and note Psa 147:5 Rom 11:33

Are these truths true?

If so why do you turn God's glory of oneness into an image of what is in the world thus violating Exodus 20:4?

Back to Romans 1:20 his Glory is seen in things he made so we gain a proper understanding of truth about God. Living things have their own oneness, yet, that oneness is in three.

I use this analogy so you can begin to grasp what God means about himself in the verses just mentioned.

An Orange consist in its oneness as Pealing, Fruit, and Juice. The Pealing is 100 percent all orange. The fruit is is 100 percent all orange, and the orange juice is all 100 percent orange. They share all the essentialness of the orange to produce life. One cannot be without the other, yet, each has its own expression of the personality of the Orange.

Peeling holds things together/provides zest...

The Fruit, expresses seed bearing...

The Juice, expresses the establishment of Life of the orange...

All are all Orange... Rom 1:20 points this out that in nature the eternal Godhead's fingerprint of his nature - essence can be seen in nature.

Now God is no Orange but he has his own essence and from His own living essence is how he takes care of things , does things, creates, etc and etc...

He sent forth His seed bearing fruit into our lives by coming as Jesus to redeem folks out of sin and death...

He sends forth his Holy Spirit to empower us with his own Life within our own selves...

While He the Father expresses his will to hold things together and bring things back into the unity of his will He sends forth Jesus and the Holy Spirit to carry this out. All three are one, not three but one and God's oneness is unlike anything we humans can fully comprehend for there to be absolutely none like God...

Out of God flows his own living essence (presences) to livingly carry out His will...

Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen

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I think you have forgotten one very important part of the orange here. one can never even have oranges with the seed. and that is exactly what the HS is. a seed that is planted within us by God, so that we can be grown and nurtured by His word. while the seed is not the orange itself, it has the possible potential to be a good, fruit bearing tree given the time and care. but if you let it wither and die, it is useless. (please forgive me the whole bearing fruit-thing)

[Jac3510]

You said the HS is "part of God which He gives us when we repent and are baptized." That is false. The HS cannot be construed as a part of God. If He is "part" of God at all, then He is 100% fully God. If He is not "part" of God at all, then He is 0% God. That which is not God is created. Therefore, if the HS is not God, He is a created being or created impersonal force. But all impersonal forces are material in nature, so then the HS would be a material being, which is self-contradictory. Thus He is either a created being or doesn't exist. Now, that which is created cannot share in any of the divine attributes. So the HS, if created, is not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, etc. If personal, He is merely an angel. So you are either saying:

1. The HS is a part of God, and ergo, there is no God at all (which is to say, you are an atheist); or
2. The HS is an angel; or
3. The HS does not exist

Whichever of these three views you take is wrong, of course. But one of those three necessarily is your error.

[jenna]

You said the HS is "part of God which He gives us when we repent and are baptized." That is false. The HS cannot be construed as a part of God. If He is "part" of God at all, then He is 100% fully God. If He is not "part" of God at all, then He is 0% God. That which is not God is created. Therefore, if the HS is not God, He is a created being or created impersonal force. But all impersonal forces are material in nature, so then the HS would be a material being, which is self-contradictory. Thus He is either a created being or doesn't exist. Now, that which is created cannot share in any of the divine attributes. So the HS, if created, is not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, etc. If personal, He is merely an angel. So you are either saying:

1. The HS is a part of God, and ergo, there is no God at all (which is to say, you are an atheist); or
2. The HS is an angel; or
3. The HS does not exist

Whichever of these three views you take is wrong, of course. But one of those three necessarily is your error.

just as there is a spirit in man, there is also the holy spirit, which is the spirit of God. while your spirit is part of you, it is not 100% you. the same goes for the HS.

[Kurieuo]

Jenna,

I believe Jac is heavily driving at Divine Simplicity doctrine, which I dare say you might be unacquainted with (as it is often neglected and is actually a hard doctrine to understand). If God isn't such, divinely simple (without parts), then many believe God cannot logically possess aseity (existing in and of itself). That God, cannot be the foundation to everything that exists.

I'd recommend taking a read of Jac's book on Divine Simplicity, which many have found easy to read and liked. You might find many things within it interesting also, and find much agreement with other areas. Really, Jac's beliefs here, and his statements, are based heavily upon DS doctrine. So it'd perhaps be like a prerequisite.

[Jac3510]

But the spirit of man is a part of man. It is also a created being.

So once again, if you say the same is true about the HS and God, then you are saying that the HS is a part of God. But God has no parts, and therefore, if this being you worship has parts, then it is not God. Therefore, you must say, if you are to affirm that God exists, that the HS is not a part of God. Therefore, the HS is either an intelligent, immaterial person--which is an angel--or else He is not a He but an "It." If the HS is not God and is not a person, then It is merely an impersonal force. But all impersonal forces are material in nature. Therefore, since there is no such thing as an immaterial, impersonal force, then if the HS is not an angel and not God, He/It simply does not exist.

[RickD]

You said the HS is "part of God which He gives us when we repent and are baptized." That is false. The HS cannot be construed as a part of God. If He is "part" of God at all, then He is 100% fully God. If He is not "part" of God at all, then He is 0% God. That which is not God is created. Therefore, if the HS is not God, He is a created being or created impersonal force. But all impersonal forces are material in nature, so then the HS would be a material being, which is self-contradictory. Thus He is either a created being or doesn't exist. Now, that which is created cannot share in any of the divine attributes. So the HS, if created, is not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, etc. If personal, He is merely an angel. So you are either saying:

1. The HS is a part of God, and ergo, there is no God at all (which is to say, you are an atheist); or
2. The HS is an angel; or
3. The HS does not exist

Whichever of these three views you take is wrong, of course. But one of those three necessarily is your error.

Great explanation, Jac.

[jenna]

But the spirit of man is a part of man. It is also a created being.

So once again, if you say the same is true about the HS and God, then you are saying that the HS is a part of God. But God has no parts, and therefore, if this being you worship has parts, then it is not God. Therefore, you must say, if you are to affirm that God exists, that the HS is not a part of God. Therefore, the HS is either an intelligent, immaterial person--which is an angel--or else He is not a He but an "It." If the HS is not God and is not a person, then It is merely an impersonal force. But all impersonal forces are material in nature. Therefore, since there is no such thing as an immaterial, impersonal force, then if the HS is not an angel and not God, He/It simply does not exist.

so, if i am reading this correctly, then what you are saying is that God has no parts? that He cannot give us the HS, since it is not a part of Him to give? if this is true, then what do we receive when we repent and are baptized? do you think that we are "possessed" by God, and that He (His entire being) comes into us when we receive the HS?

[PaulSacramento]

Christ is God.
the Father is God.
The Holy Spirit is not God. the holy spirit is part of God which He gives us when we repent and are baptized. it is not, however, God Himself.
and Christ and the Father are one in the sense that They are of one mind. They are not one being, they are two completely separate beings.

I am glad you put this simply and in a way that is clear.
I recall I had a hard time getting a concrete answer from you on what/who the HS is.

The Holy Spirit is NOT God but is PART of God?

The HS forgives and Judges, how can some "part" of God do that which only God can do?
To blasphemy the HS is unforgivable BUT the HS is only PART of God and not even a person ( according to you) so how can that be?

[PaulSacramento]

This may help in understanding the HS as a person and Deity:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-person.html

The Bible provides many ways to help us understand that the Holy Spirit is truly a person—that is, He is a personal being, rather than an impersonal thing. First, every pronoun used in reference to the Spirit is “he” not “it.” The original Greek language of the New Testament is explicit in confirming the person of the Holy Spirit. The word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is neuter and would naturally take neuter pronouns to have grammatical agreement. Yet, in many cases, masculine pronouns are found (e.g., John 15:26; 16:13-14). Grammatically, there is no other way to understand the pronouns of the New Testament related to the Holy Spirit—He is referred to as a “He,” as a person.

Matthew 28:19 teaches us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is a collective reference to one Triune God. Also, we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). The Spirit can be sinned against (Isaiah 63:10) and lied to (Acts 5:3). We are to obey Him (Acts 10:19–21) and honor Him (Psalm 51:11).

The personhood of the Holy Spirit is also affirmed by His many works. He was personally involved in creation (Genesis 1:2), empowers God’s people (Zechariah 4:6), guides (Romans 8:14), comforts (John 14:26), convicts (John 16:8), teaches (John 16:13), restrains sin (Isaiah 59:19), and gives commands (Acts 8:29). Each of these works requires the involvement of a person rather than a mere force, thing, or idea.

The Holy Spirit’s attributes also point to His personality. The Holy Spirit has life (Romans 8:2), has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11), is omniscient (1 Corinthians 2:10–11), is eternal (Hebrews 9:14), and is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7). A mere force could not possess all of these attributes, but the Holy Spirit does.

And the personhood of the Holy Spirit is affirmed by His role as the third Person of the Godhead. Only a being who is equal to God (Matthew 28:19) and possesses the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, and eternality could be defined as God.

In Acts 5:3–4, Peter referred to the Holy Spirit as God, stating, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” Paul likewise referred to the Holy Spirit as God in 2 Corinthians 3:17–18, stating, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”

[jenna]

Christ is God.
the Father is God.
The Holy Spirit is not God. the holy spirit is part of God which He gives us when we repent and are baptized. it is not, however, God Himself.
and Christ and the Father are one in the sense that They are of one mind. They are not one being, they are two completely separate beings.

I am glad you put this simply and in a way that is clear.
I recall I had a hard time getting a concrete answer from you on what/who the HS is.

The Holy Spirit is NOT God but is PART of God?

The HS forgives and Judges, how can some "part" of God do that which only God can do?
To blasphemy the HS is unforgivable BUT the HS is only PART of God and not even a person ( according to you) so how can that be?

because that part that is given to us gives us the ability to forgive and to judge correctly. and, if you want to say to blaspheme the HS is unforgivable, then why is it forgivable to blaspheme God?

[PaulSacramento]

and here:

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/ju ... -a-person/

[PaulSacramento]

Jenna, please read those links I posted before you comment, they may help you to understand.

[PaulSacramento]

because that part that is given to us gives us the ability to forgive and to judge correctly. and, if you want to say to blaspheme the HS is unforgivable, then why is it forgivable to blaspheme God?

I don't think you understood what I wrote.
The HS judges, not us.
Please see those links.

[jenna]

because that part that is given to us gives us the ability to forgive and to judge correctly. and, if you want to say to blaspheme the HS is unforgivable, then why is it forgivable to blaspheme God?

I don't think you understood what I wrote.
The HS judges, not us.
Please see those links.

again i ask. if blaspheming the HS is unforgivable, then why can one blaspheme God Himself and be forgiven?

[Philip]

First off, Jenna, if you believe that Jesus is God and that Jesus has a Father, then you are 2/3 the way to understanding God as a Trinity. To whom did Jesus pray to in the wilderness? Did He talk to Himself? Who turned his back briefly upon Jesus while He was on the cross? The FATHER is the answer to these. Consider Genesis 1:27: “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness." Ah, but God is ONE, according to Scripture. What is this "our" and "us" stuff - if there are not multiple persons within God? Matthew 26:53: "Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?" Note that Jesus doesn't say HE could command angels to be sent, but his "Father" - "HE" is the one Jesus references. OK, 2/3 to a Trinity.

John 14: 16-17: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be7 in you.

and verse 26: But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you

Above, you have the Trinity, all together, in one place. JESUS says the FATHER (using the separate pronoun of identification, "He," as the one Who will do the sending, AND describes another, a "Helper" - capitalized as a person, not as a pronoun, and also as identified by a pronoun ("He") - and this is not the Father Himself, but "ANOTHER" who will be SENT by the Father.

Again: John 16:13: "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

Note, of this Spirit in the verse above: "He" will guide, "He" will not speak on His own (even though "He" has his own authority), and "He" first "HEARS" from another, the things that "HE" will declare. This Person of the Trinity guides, speaks, has his own authority (but does speak per IT), and He declares future things.

OK, so God is but ONE God, and clearly their is also prolifically described a Father and a Son, with a relationship, and as self described with the possessive pronouns of "our" and "us." And then you have the Holy Spirit prolifically described as a person in many other places. Is this easy to understand? Course not! But that is because we are mortal beings with limits of understandings. God is a Being for Whom words scarcely can describe Who and What He is. This shouldn't be surprising. Most importantly, the concept of the Trinity is entirely supported in Scripture!