The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....

[KBCid]

KBC wrote: So my question still stands. Are you promoting that we don't have to obey any of the commandments?

KBC, I'm saying that believers are under grace, and not under the old covenant of the law. When you ask about "we", why are you talking about yourself as though you are a believer? Being a "weak agnostic", you haven't accepted Christ, correct?

Note here that I have not and am not saying we are not under grace 'if' we are to be saved. The works of the old sacrificial system were fullfilled so it is no longer possible to conceptually think that sacrificing animals would somehow save us from the sins we commit.
The old covenant indeed was done away since it never addressed the mind of the believer and the spirit of the law. When Christ came he redefined the laws that were to apply to us in the new covenant. In the new covenant the laws of God are to be written in the heart of the believer and they were to be observed in the spirit that they were given. New covenant with updated laws whose manner of observance was defined by Christ himself.

You should note that I stated long ago in a post that I 'was' a weak agnostic 'until' the evidence came about to allow me to know that God is the creator and that Jesus is the Christ. I never got the chance to have a belief. I went from not knowing to knowing. I have accepted the fact that my salvation will be through Christs sacrifice and I pray often that he will direct me into the truth. So the final answer is that I am a Christian in training. The goal is set. No amount of convincing at this point could ever make me alter that I have faith in God and Christ. The only questions that I want to confirm is what is required of me by the one that will ultimately judge me. God gave me my intelligence and gift of mechanical understanding. Now I pray for his direction in the proper understanding of his word.

So the question is still unanswered "are you promoting that I don't have to obey any of Gods laws as a christian believer?" are we free to individually define how we act towards God and man? I noticed that Neo-X feels safe in making the assertion that we don't have to observe any laws.

[RickD]

. I never got the chance to have a belief. I went from not knowing to knowing. I have accepted the fact that my salvation will be through Christs sacrifice and I pray often that he will direct me into the truth.

KBC, if you believe in Christ alone for your salvation, then you are saved. PERIOD.

So the final answer is that I am a Christian in training.

KBC, there's no such thing as a padawan Christian. If you place your faith in Christ for your salvation, you are just as saved as someone who had been a believer for 80 years. You now have eternal life. And If you are saved, God has given you His deposit(the Holy Spirit) guaranteeing you are sealed forever in Him. It is through God that you will persevere. Not from anything you do.

So the question is still unanswered "are you promoting that I don't have to obey any of Gods laws as a christian believer?" are we free to individually define how we act towards God and man? I noticed
that Neo-X feels safe in making the assertion that we don't have to observe any laws.

KBC, I'm saying you don't have to obey any of God's laws. If one is a believer, he now has the Holy Spirit(God himself) inside him. He will lead you to love God and your neighbor. He will convict you when you sin. Tell me KBC, do you have a conviction that you need to obey any laws except loving God and your neighbor?

[RickD]

Is Jesus Christ the believer's true Sabbath rest, or not?

Ultimately yes.. And you could argue that every day is a Shabbat, but then would you not work everyday too?

If Christ is our Sabbath rest, then all other Sabbaths were to point us to the true Sabbath. Now that we have Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ, we don't need any other Sabbaths.

Gman, I'm perfectly capable of taking enough time off from work without resting on Saturday. I'm not arguing that every day is a Sabbath. I'm arguing that Christ is my Sabbath, and I rest in Him. My conscience is crystal clear on that. All other sabbaths did what they were supposed to do. They pointed to Christ. Now that I rest in Christ, why would I want to go back to a mere shadow of the real Sabbath. Just like if I have a picture of my fiancé until we are reunited, once I'm reunited with her, I have the real "her". And it kinda means the picture has served its purpose, and is no longer needed.
All sabbaths were a picture of the true Sabbath Jesus Christ. We now have Him, why do we still want to stare at the picture?

[RickD]

KBC, for you or anyone else that feels like he "has to" obey old testament laws including sabbath laws, ask yourself why you feel you have to obey them.

[KBCid]

The indwelling holy spirit can only help point you in the right direction.

KBC, the Holy Spirit is God inside the believer.

Indeed this is correct

He fully justifies and sanctifies the believer. He doesn't merely point one in the right direction.

Then you infer that freedom of choice has been removed once God is indwelling? According to what I have read the spirit will be our guide.

. It can show you how to obey the laws that God puts in the heart.

KBC, the Holy Spirit isn't an "it". The Holy Spirit is God Himself, indwelling the believer.

God knows how my reference was intended. His spirit will guide us as it is written in how to obey the statutes and judgments;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.

It seems fairly clear that Gods indwelling spirit will guide us not simply take over and eliminate free will.

They show us what a sin is and Christ made sure to point out that is was not simply physical actions that are a sin, rather it is a sin if you break the commands in your thoughts as well. Continuing to sin separates one from God.

KBC, that's what I said. The law, including the 10 commandments, show us how utterly sinful, and in need of a savior we are.

But this is incorrect. It is not the decalogue that shows us our need for a savior for the remission of sins, it is the sacrificial laws that showed us that we needed a savior. The decalogue simply shows us what sin is. It will always show man what a sin is and with Christs magnification of the decalogue we can now understand that its not simply physical actions but mental as well.

Your message is telling me that I don't have to obey any laws. Is that your intent?

KBC, without believing in Christ, and having the indwelling Holy Spirit in you, you cannot understand what it means to live by the spirit. All you see is that I'm saying that I'm justified by faith in Christ, and I can break any laws I want. That's not living by the spirit. That would be trampling on what Christ did to save us.

Except that I do believe in Christ and God. As for the indwelling holy spirit... how exactly does one determine if a believer has the spirit indwelling?
In this reply you assert that if you live by the spirit then you will not break any laws. However, this does not jive with an assertion that there are no laws to break. Either there are laws that can be broken and the spirit keeps you from breaking them or there are no laws and the spirit doesn't need to prevent you from breaking them. This you will need to clarify.
According to the word of God;

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

There are definitely statutes that are required to be walked in and there are judgments that must be done. These are requirements that will define how we conduct ourselves. Christ echoes this same understanding by asserting that if we love him we will obey the commandments;

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

God clearly states he will put his laws in our heart. What laws do you suppose these are and if they are his laws and we don't obey them then what would the result be?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

God also points out what happens if you continue to break his laws;

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Paul defines these laws that we are obligated to obey as well;

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
He fully justifies and sanctifies the believer. He doesn't merely point one in the right direction.

KBCid wrote:
Then you infer that freedom of choice has been removed once God is indwelling? According to what I have read the spirit will be our guide.

He absolutely is our guide. But not only our guide. We still have choices we make, even though we are saved. I'm not sure how you understood that I was inferring that we have no freedom of choice, as you say. Could you explain why you think I believe that?

KBCid wrote:
It can show you how to obey the laws that God puts in the heart.




RickD wrote:
KBC, the Holy Spirit isn't an "it". The Holy Spirit is God Himself, indwelling the believer.

KBCid wrote:
God knows how my reference was intended. His spirit will guide us as it is written in how to obey the statutes and judgments;

KBC, I didn't say that as an insult to you. I think you're missing something important here. The Holy Spirit is God. The same God who justifies us through Christ, sanctifies us through His indwelling us. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

It seems fairly clear that Gods indwelling spirit will guide us not simply take over and eliminate free will.

I'm not sure how you're getting this from what I'm saying. Please explain.

But this is incorrect. It is not the decalogue that shows us our need for a savior for the remission of sins, it is the sacrificial laws that showed us that we needed a savior. The decalogue simply shows us what sin is. It will always show man what a sin is and with Christs magnification of the decalogue we can now understand that its not simply physical actions but mental as well.

The ten commandments do what you said, and by showing what sin is, it shows that we are utterly sinful, and need a redeemer.

Except that I do believe in Christ and God. As for the indwelling holy spirit... how exactly does one determine if a believer has the spirit indwelling?
In this reply you assert that if you live by the spirit then you will not break any laws. However, this does not jive with an assertion that there are no laws to break. Either there are laws that can be broken and the spirit keeps you from breaking them or there are no laws and the spirit doesn't need to prevent you from breaking them. This you will need to clarify.

If you place your faith in Christ to save you from your sins, you have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
KBC, as long as we are in this fleshly body, we can't live without sinning. The spirit is willing, bug the flesh is weak. The Holy Spirit doesn't turn us into a "God possessed" robot. Believers aren't mindless, sinless robots. We are sinners saved by God's grace.

God clearly states he will put his laws in our heart. What laws do you suppose these are and if they are his laws and we don't obey them then what would the result be?

To love God, and love our neighbor.
If believers don't always love God and our neighbor, that means we are imperfect humans, still saved by God's grace, not by our ability to perform.

[jlay]

The things that you do in serving G-d have to be because you believe in him, and you accept what he says as true and faithful. When G-d looks at us and sees righteousness, it is because of our faith.

Either faith (believing on Christ) is enough or it isn't. Again, backdoor works salvation.

Even the example of Abraham in the binding of Isaac, if you really consider it, that fact that G-d declared him righteous is not from the act of offering Isaac, since he didn’t actually complete the task, but the willingness to offer Isaac on the basis of G-d’s command. This is nothing about keeping the law unto salvation, he didn't even have the entire law back then. It's keeping the law out of respect for G-d and our fellow believers in obedience. G-d's laws are NOT evil or bad. G-d is telling us to take a day off of work so that we don't burn ourselves out. G-d forbid... How dare He..

Here, you are redifining the Sabbath to be something you can comply to. Where does the Bible define the Sabbath this way? Hint, it doesn't. This is Gman's interpretation.

You would seem that we have no laws.. Again, would you live in a country without any laws??

Do you want to live in theocratic Israel? I assume you would be the first to pick up stones to throw at me if that were the case. What you are in saying in essence is that we need to go back to that.

I disagree.. You keep saying faith and you don't even have a definition of faith.. According to this blind faith, you could say you believe in Christ and still be a murderer. Sorry that holds no water..

Faith is believing. Being convinced that something is true. And where do you think it is 'blind'? Are you implying that a murderer (David, Moses, etc.) can't be a believer? Just what are you saying here. That believers CANNOT sin? Brother, they do. You do. And, you need to be real careful with what you are saying for your own sake. James said, whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking all of it. That makes you and I murderers. Or, Christ said that if you are angry with a brother, you are guilty of the judgment of murder. So is grace not able to overcome all sin? Or does God need your performance?

Well you are wrong.. Israel is not done away with and it's still on the map.

Don't quote me out of context. I said FOR A TIME. There is no question that theocratic Isreal is broken off for a time. If, (and that is a big if) what is going on in palestine today is theocratic Israel then they are still guilty of exactly what caused them to be broken off in the 1st place. Could God's hand be providentially at work? Certainly. God worked through a chosen people and a chosen place. And, I do believe that one day He will restore those things in rule on the earth. The "Israel" you speak of today is a political entity, and it's establishment was under the authority of men. The people who live in that land today are living in rejection of Messiah. Why was Israel hardened? Because of unbelief. They rejected the Messiah. And within a matter of years the entire temple system was destroyed. Last I checked there is a Mosque on the temple mount, and unbelief in Israel. Thus theocratic Israel is not an entity today.

Christ said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-19. So bring it up with Him.

It has been fulfilled. What did Jesus not fulfill?

And His word doesn't include His commandments??

This is simply failing to 'rightly divide the word of truth.' You aren't dividing (which means to seperate and make distinctions.) you are lumping.

Paul says, "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written:" Romans 9:30,31,32,33

Be careful... I also know that anyone who professes faith in Christ name will not be saved either...
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!Matthew 7:21-27

Profession is certainly not equal to belief. But, again, the context of Jesus sermon to Israel doesn't help your point. Keep in mind he was speaking to Jews exclusively here. You know, those under the Law. These are people who DO WORKS, but their works are actually called lawlessness. I'd be careful about prooftexting and scripture hopping to attempt to condemn someone. Shameful. The will of the Father today is that we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing we may have life in His name.

So are you keeping the Sabbath? If not the more you will need His grace..

No, and neither are you. You are keeping an ammended version of it, based on your interpretations. And yes, I need His grace. I praise Him that I have it in full.

So now if you are saying the law is good, then why do you think that His Sabbath is not good? I don't understand..

Of course you don't. Neither did many in Paul's day, including Peter, who also had to be rebuked because of Judiazing, which is exactly what you are doing now.

[KBCid]

KBCid wrote: Then you infer that freedom of choice has been removed once God is indwelling? According to what I have read the spirit will be our guide.

He absolutely is our guide. But not only our guide. We still have choices we make, even though we are saved. I'm not sure how you understood that I was inferring that we have no freedom of choice, as you say. Could you explain why you think I believe that?

This is why I asked you to clarify. It was comming across that way. Perspective is a tuff animal sometimes.
So if we are not controlled and the HS is a guide then the ability to sin still exists. Until we die we can still sin. The question now is what commandments could we break in order to sin since sin is the breaking of a commandment. Can you define them?

KBC, I didn't say that as an insult to you. I think you're missing something important here. The Holy Spirit is God. The same God who justifies us through Christ, sanctifies us through His indwelling us. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

No insult was taken. You care and I recognise that spirit.
How sanctified would we be if we keep sinning? Since man at all times has a free choice then it is possible to not obey the guidance given by the HS. It is apparently possible for people to believe fully that they are doing the will of God and yet not be saved right. So how does a believer... who is fully believing in God and Christ... come to the judgement and get told;

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I take note of the ''many'' that will stand before their judge and will make that statement believing they had been doing his will. These people who know they are standing in the very presence of God himself... declare to his face that they believed they were doing his will. These are 'believers'who know they can't decieve God and they boldly assert that they believed they were doing his will.

Rick this verse holds a very important message to me;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

In this one verse God clarifies to me that believing in God and Christ and believing that you are doing God's will is going to be the position of many people who are ultimately, wrong. There must be a reason why 'many' people can be 'convinced' / 'fully believing' that they are doing Gods will and yet are deceived. How many christians in our current age would assert they are doing Gods will? How many people do we know who would make this statement at the judgment?
I have asked God to give a worthless sinner the ability to understand his words so that I can properly move forward in his will and so far my understanding has been opened to this concept, "I can believe in God and Christ and think i'm doing Gods will and yet not be."
My perception of the biblical message is that faith / belief alone will not make us worthy. God made my body and my mind and I know that I want to continue to exist with the Good and I have faith that he will lead me in the right path.
So what does one do when confronted with a doctrinal issue that is in direct opposition to the understanding they have?

The ten commandments do what you said, and by showing what sin is, it shows that we are utterly sinful, and need a redeemer.

Well according to the way you are applying it only those prior to Christs sacrifice could sin according to the decalogue since at his death the old covenant ceased to apply. If they no longer apply because of his death and I was born after that then I haven't been sinning all this time prior to my conversion. Isn't that how the logic would play out?
This brings us to the obvious realisation that this cannot be true since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. so how does one sin without a commandment to disobey?

In this reply you assert that if you live by the spirit then you will not break any laws. However, this does not jive with an assertion that there are no laws to break. Either there are laws that can be broken and the spirit keeps you from breaking them or there are no laws and the spirit doesn't need to prevent you from breaking them. This you will need to clarify.

If you place your faith in Christ to save you from your sins, you have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
KBC, as long as we are in this fleshly body, we can't live without sinning. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The Holy Spirit doesn't turn us into a "God possessed" robot. Believers aren't mindless, sinless robots. We are sinners saved by God's grace.

The way you say it, the moment I believed in God and Christ then I was given the Holy Ghost. This would also imply that my indwelling guide is opening my understanding to the truth right? So why aren't we both on the same page in doctrine?

Not exactly. We are sinners that 'could' be saved by God's grace. However as noted above belief alone does not grant us his saving grace.

God clearly states he will put his laws in our heart. What laws do you suppose these are and if they are his laws and we don't obey them then what would the result be?

To love God, and love our neighbor.
If believers don't always love God and our neighbor, that means we are imperfect humans, still saved by God's grace, not by our ability to perform.

So we don't have to love God and our neighbor to be saved? interesting, we don't have to do anything to be saved but believe

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[Gman]

Either faith (believing on Christ) is enough or it isn't. Again, backdoor works salvation.

Not at all.. A generic faith in Christ will not work.. Even the demons believe in G-d, James 2:19. Are they saved too?

Here, you are redifining the Sabbath to be something you can comply to. Where does the Bible define the Sabbath this way? Hint, it doesn't. This is Gman's interpretation.

Sure.. It's easy to comply to the Sabbath.. It's so easy you just have to take a day off to do it.. G-d's interpretation.

Do you want to live in theocratic Israel? I assume you would be the first to pick up stones to throw at me if that were the case. What you are in saying in essence is that we need to go back to that.

Well one day we will. Ezekiel 46:1-3 speaks of the weekly Sabbath being observed on Earth during the Millennium so get ready..

Faith is believing. Being convinced that something is true. And where do you think it is 'blind'? Are you implying that a murderer (David, Moses, etc.) can't be a believer? Just what are you saying here. That believers CANNOT sin? Brother, they do. You do. And, you need to be real careful with what you are saying for your own sake. James said, whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking all of it. That makes you and I murderers. Or, Christ said that if you are angry with a brother, you are guilty of the judgment of murder. So is grace not able to overcome all sin? Or does God need your performance?

No.. Faith is more than just believing. It's also doing His word James 1:22. Of course we are murderers, thieves and the likes and we can still sin. That isn't the point, are you saying that you can still remain a murderer or thief and still remain in Christ?? That is just wrong on many levels. Having Christ is not a license to sin, Hebrews 10:26.

Don't quote me out of context. I said FOR A TIME. There is no question that theocratic Isreal is broken off for a time. If, (and that is a big if) what is going on in palestine today is theocratic Israel then they are still guilty of exactly what caused them to be broken off in the 1st place. Could God's hand be providentially at work? Certainly. God worked through a chosen people and a chosen place. And, I do believe that one day He will restore those things in rule on the earth. The "Israel" you speak of today is a political entity, and it's establishment was under the authority of men. The people who live in that land today are living in rejection of Messiah. Why was Israel hardened? Because of unbelief. They rejected the Messiah. And within a matter of years the entire temple system was destroyed. Last I checked there is a Mosque on the temple mount, and unbelief in Israel. Thus theocratic Israel is not an entity today.

Again you are wrong on many levels.. For not all of Israel is corrupt as you claim. There is always a remnant saved by grace Romans 11:5. Therefore they haven't rejected the Messiah yet. In the end there will be a mass conversion.

It has been fulfilled. What did Jesus not fulfill?

Our desires to obey His commandments by grace.

This is simply failing to 'rightly divide the word of truth.' You aren't dividing (which means to seperate and make distinctions.) you are lumping.

If I'm lumping then you are subtracting.

Paul says, "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written:" Romans 9:30,31,32,33

Right... Look at the verse again.. "who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. " Which means that they pursued the law in a WRONG WAY. They tried to pursue it legally. So we need to pursue the law through Christ, the RIGHT WAY. You see there is a correct way to walk G-d's laws.

Profession is certainly not equal to belief. But, again, the context of Jesus sermon to Israel doesn't help your point. Keep in mind he was speaking to Jews exclusively here. You know, those under the Law. These are people who DO WORKS, but their works are actually called lawlessness. I'd be careful about prooftexting and scripture hopping to attempt to condemn someone. Shameful. The will of the Father today is that we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing we may have life in His name.

Why would he be talking to gentiles? Not those under the law but those who attain it legalistically.

No, and neither are you. You are keeping an ammended version of it, based on your interpretations. And yes, I need His grace. I praise Him that I have it in full.

An ammended version of the Sabbath? To take a day off a week? Right.

Of course you don't. Neither did many in Paul's day, including Peter, who also had to be rebuked because of Judiazing, which is exactly what you are doing now.

Oh the old Judiazing accusation again.. Where does Deuteronomy 5:14 say that belonged to strictly the Jews?

[PaulSacramento]

I am wondering, those that keep the Sabbath, do you keep it according to ALL the Sabbath Laws?
Do you keep it based on the Hebrew calender ( Sunday being the first day of the week) or the Gregorian calender ( Monday being the first day of the week)?

[jlay]

Not at all.. A generic faith in Christ will not work.. Even the demons believe in G-d, James 2:19. Are they saved too?

A generic faith? What is a 'generic' faith? Biblical references please. This is a common talking point of Lordship salvation. That faith isn't faith, but that faith is some mystical commodity.
Again, proper faith is placing trust in the appropiate object.

Demons are not offered salvation through faith. I think you are smart enough to know this. There have been plenty of discussions on James. If this is the line of interpreation you decide to take, you are left with no choice but to put Paul and James at odds, and thus pick which one to accept or reject.

Well one day we will. Ezekiel 46:1-3 speaks of the weekly Sabbath being observed on Earth during the Millennium so get ready..

Uhh, I think you should already be aware of dispensational views on the millenium.

No.. Faith is more than just believing. It's also doing His word James 1:22. Of course we are murderers, thieves and the likes and we can still sin. That isn't the point, are you saying that you can still remain a murderer or thief and still remain in Christ?? That is just wrong on many levels. Having Christ is not a license to sin, Hebrews 10:26.

Have you ever been angry with another? If so, Jesus says you are guilty of the judgment. Again, if you are going to take this line of interpretation, you need to follow it all the way through consistently. If faith is more than believing, then I would hate to preach that Gospel, and bear the burden of living up to it. You've made it clear, a person's efforts and performance (taking a day off) contribute to salvation. That is a false Gospel.

Having Christ is not a license to sin, Hebrews 10:26.

Not sure what a 'license to sin' is, but sounds too me like Paul was taking the same criticism. (Rom. 3:8)

There is always a remnant saved by grace Romans 11:5. Therefore they haven't rejected the Messiah yet. In the end there will be a mass conversion.

G, just curious, but do you know what "present time' means? That means, at the time of Paul writing his letter to the church in Rome.

Therefore they haven't rejected the Messiah yet. In the end there will be a mass conversion.

The conversion will be from rejecting to accepting. So at this time they are..........rejecting. Is that really that hard to figure out? And therefore are broken off.

An ammended version of the Sabbath? To take a day off a week? Right

And this makes your faith genuine and ours not??? Legalism, false Gospel. Ananthema.

Where does Deuteronomy 5:14 say that belonged to strictly the Jews?

Uhhhh, try verse 1. Hear, ISRAEL. Then go through the chapter 6 and read how many times it says, "Hear, O Israel."

[RickD]

KBC wrote:
So if we are not controlled and the HS is a guide then the ability to sin still exists. Until we die we can still sin.

I agree

KBC wrote:
The question now is what commandments could we break in order to sin since sin is the breaking of a commandment. Can you define them?

In a nutshell, I believe we sin when we don't love God, and when we don't love our neighbor as ourself. Basically, the 10 commandments are summed up in loving one's neighbor and loving God. All 10 except the 4th. Nowhere in the new testament are Christians told to follow the old testament sabbath law.

KBC wrote:
How sanctified would we be if we keep sinning?

That's a good question. Since we can't stop sinning, as our sinful nature is at war with our spirit as believers, and God is the one who sanctifies a believer, what do you think?

Since man at all times has a free choice then it is possible to not obey the guidance given by the HS

I agree.

It is apparently possible for people to believe fully that they are doing the will of God and yet not be saved right.

Yes

So how does a believer... who is fully believing in God and Christ... come to the judgement and get told;

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done any wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

One who is trusting in Christ alone for salvation, won't be told that, IMO.

Rick this verse holds a very important message to me;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1)Believe on Jesus Christ,
2) God Himself indwells us by the Holy Spirit
3) we have a desire to love Him, and our neighbor. God gives us that desire by transforming us

I'll continue later..

[RickD]

KBC wrote:
My perception of the biblical message is that faith / belief alone will not make us worthy. God made my body and my mind and I know that I want to continue to exist with the Good and I have faith that he will lead me in the right path.

KBC, faith/belief isn't what makes one worthy of salvation. God's grace through Christ's death and resurrection, is where the power is. Simply, the message of the cross.
1 Corinthians 1:18 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who [a]are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


Faith is just the means by which we accept God's grace. I guess I look at it this way: God's grace is what saves us, through Christ's efficacious work. All we do is believe on that work of Christ. Since it's Christ's work that saves, our "work", or our obeying the law, or our trying to be a good Christian, is worthless, as far as salvation and justification is concerned. Once we are saved, and God works in us(through the indwelling Holy Spirit), evidence of us being saved, will naturally be produced. Just like a tree produces fruit through no effort of itself. I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying here.

So what does one do when confronted with a doctrinal issue that is in direct opposition to the understanding they have?

I know I pray, search scripture, and ask others. And pray more. When God wants you to know, He'll show you.

The way you say it, the moment I believed in God and Christ then I was given the Holy Ghost. This would also imply that my indwelling guide is opening my understanding to the truth right? So why aren't we both on the same page in doctrine?

We will be when we no longer have our sinful nature fighting against our spirit.

So we don't have to love God and our neighbor to be saved?

That's putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. I'm saying once we are saved, as the Holy Spirit transforms us, we will love God and our neighbor more.

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
Oh the old Judiazing accusation again.. Where does Deuteronomy 5:14 say that belonged to strictly the Jews?

Gman, I know jlay answered this already, but is this meant to be a rhetorical question?

Deuteronomy 5:1-14
5 Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them:
“Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your [a]hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of [c]us alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. [d]He said,

6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [e]slavery.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods [f]before Me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself [g]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above [h]or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

11 ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not [j]leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

12 ‘Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who [k]stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.


It seems pretty specific who is being spoken to here.

[Gman]

Gman, I know jlay answered this already, but is this meant to be a rhetorical question?

Deuteronomy 5:1-14
5 Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them:
“Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your [a]hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of [c]us alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. [d]He said,

6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [e]slavery.

Very good.. You have now fallen into my trap. And who is part of Israel? That's right.. You are. Anyone who accepts Christ is part of the commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:19
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

And who brought YOU out of Egypt?

1 Corinthians 10
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ