Gman said: Because of identity? Is not Jesus G-d?? Jesus GAVE US ALL THE LAWS whether they are in the OT or NT.... Grace does not mean that we destroy G-d's laws
God also gave man the Garden. If the Laws were the way of love and perfection, then where were they in the Garden? The Law is part of God redeeming man and moving him back to that reality. The Law is not that reality. We now have that reality in Christ. Even though we are still viewing it through these dead bodies. But it is no less a reality. We are made to sit in heavenly places. That is a reality NOW.
So what is Christ's law in Christ? Answer... Just love, love, love... Make up your own rules. You have no foundation outside of G-d's commandments. And any you do have is just picking and choosing and denying the rest... So you do have a form of it, but it is deceiving also.
make up your own rules? Again, strawman. And your post lacks love.
Completely wrong... G-d's laws are not rubbish old rags.. Rather we are old rags, but not His teaching or commandments.
All of God's word is written for our benefit. But not all of it is addressed or applies directly to you. Where did I say it was rubbish? Straw man.
Galatians 3:23 in no way negates G-d's laws. Sure, some can use G-d's laws to promote legalism unto salvation, but that is NOT it's purpose. It's purpose it to promote unity among the believers, not righteousness..
You consistently use terms that I am not. I am using biblical terms, and you are setting up straw men using words that appear to work to your advantage. I agree it doesn't negate the Law. It competely changes our relationship to it.
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
The entirety of Romans is clear despite the semantically differences here. We are dead to the Law. As Hebrews says, it is obsolete.
And if you look at the greek word for "end" it means "Telos" which is the same word we get for telescope or "aim." Therefore Christ is the AIM of the law.. Not end. Holy cow...
I have no problem with that usage. You can examine the word and its usage and see that translating it ‘end’ is also a consistent translation.
There are no separate new covenants of the gentiles.. That is simply an illusion...
That is not even the topic here. But, Jesus said in His earthly ministry, "Go NOT the way of the Gentiles." Now, you keep quoting instructions from Jesus to Israel as if they are to you. Why not that command? Did something
change after the cross regarding the Gentiles? Was there a new revelation that caused the Gentile exclusion to be made OBSOLETE? But first let's just make sure. What did Paul say about the Gentile prior to the cross? "That
at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world." (Eph. 2:12) Your approach is to take whatever Christ said, ignore audience and context and then apply it as you see fit. Of course, if we follow that same method then this verse essentially destroys the entire ministry of Paul. As I've shown, your hermeneutic cannot be consistently followed. It is self-defeating. What we can see is that the covenant, which was in the Law excluded the Gentiles. That was the Law. "Here ye O' Israel!"
No way... Are you still in the flesh? Then G-d's laws are still in effect until we get into heaven.
No, and neither is anyone who has trusted Christ. Listen carefully to what this says. "
But you (the believer) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9)
Do you have the Spirit? So, I ask you, are you still in the flesh?
The Bible says that when we trust Christ we are
dead to sin. We are saints. (which is the exact same word for Holy) What you have just stated is that you do not trust that reality of this identity for yourself, or for any believer. That is the heart of legalism. Now bear in mind that I'm not saying you aren't saved. What I'm saying is that you now don't trust who you are In Christ. You trust the old man, who Paul says is DEAD. There is still some performance standard you see, outside of yourself (The OT law) that you must live up to. In your case you claim on one end that you don’t think it saves you. You just think that it is evidence that you are saved. Which is really just slipping it in the back door. And thus it is no surprise to me why you would say a believer is still "in the flesh."
Paul says that the Law arouses the sinful desires. Where are the sinful desires? In the flesh. Romans 7:5
So, how would following something that arouses the sinful desires be the way to walk in the spirit. That creates a problem.
“And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an
obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” (Rom. 8:11,12,13)
So what is our source of Godly living? The spirit which is 100% in us. The sinful nature, which is aroused by the Law can be put to death, but this is done by the Spirit. That is by trusting who we were made In Christ. Paul is teaching this for the same reason. The Romans didn’t believe it. Like us, they see their behavior and thoughts in light of the Law, and thus do not believe that they are righteous and Holy. They judge themselves by their behavior. The inclination is to try and do better. But that too is birthed in the flesh, which is death. But Paul points the believer to the source of life. A source that is ALREADY within them.
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. (Rom. 8:15)
I'm amazed at how many people just see Jesus as some super person who did a great job following the written law. But that was not the source of His perfection. After all Jesus violated the written code of the Sabbath. Of course He was without sin, because He was always in the will of the Father. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." Jesus was living out of the sourcing of God, not merely living up to a standard.
Paul then instructs us, "Let this mind that is in Christ be in you." (Phil 2:5) That is obedience. An obedience to trust who we are in Christ. You conflate any statement of 'obedience' or 'command' to the Law, which is no wonder you mock Free Gracers and sound like a Pharisee.
Why go back to G-d's laws?? Because that is commanded by Jesus Himself. To promote unity, love, and identity. They are not evil...
Do you mean the unity and love of calling Free Gracers crapology?
That is a wrong hermeneutic. It doesn't consider audience, time, or conditions. (the fact that it occurred pre-cross.) As you know, we are incapable of love had not God first loved us. You really think the way to love is by following the law? So what does RELEASED from the law mean? Following the law is not a measure of how one is loving God.
No.. You are missing the point of Paul's message. Now jump down to verse 7. We never destroy G-d's law.
The point of Paul's message? Where did I say destroyed? God's law in the OT, as well as the moral reality written on the conscience. What Paul says in Romans 7:7 has to be read in light of what else was quoted prior, which of course I had already done. That in Christ, you have DIED to the Law. (Romans 7:6) It says that the Law helps us to see our need of saving. How is that a command to follow the Law? It isn't. Proof texting is fine as long as the quote is used in a way that is consistent with the context.
There is no truth if you choose to separate from G-d's commandments.
God has fulfilled that program and has revealed a better way. If you choose to live in the old then so be it.
We will never be able to fulfill G-d's commandments outside of the Holy Spirit or Christ's messages.
Christ already fulfilled the Law. Walking in the HS is not about just doing a better job keeping the Law. The believer has an entire new relationship with God “In Christ.”
Again if you think that laws are so bad, why don't you remove all the millions of laws that make up the United States? Even more than the commandments of G-d.. Do you propose we live in chaos?
I'm not sure what that means? Living in Chaos is a result of people either breaking the civil laws, or everyone being a law unto themselves. In regards to Christian living, I am proposing neither. It's a strawman. This thinking is a refusal to see that there is a reality that transcends legal living. What do you think it's like in Heaven. Just good rule following? No.
cheezerrox wrote:That was a very long post, and it looks like this one will be too. Apologies to anyone who reads the whole thing. I would disagree about Paul not instructing believers to follow the Torah, but regardless, that's just an argument from silence. Obviously you won't find him saying, "Brethren, follow the Law." You won't find statements like that in the Talmud either. To the 1st Century Jewish mind, there was literally no other way to follow G-d. The Torah is assumed; good works, commandments, all those things are assumed to be derived from Torah. There were only disagreements on HOW to follow the Torah. Now, one might say that this wasn't just some new sect of 1st Century Judaism, but a new way inaugurated by G-d. But you'll never find Yeshua or any of the apostles (including Paul) making any claim to be breaking away from Judaism in any way; they only parted with those who chose to accept the authority of men and rabbis as opposed to the Mashiach of Israel.
Again, breaking away from Judaism isn’t my claim. Gentiles were never Jews to begin with.
In Romans 1:32 Paul condemns those who reject G-d and give away their bodies for degrading passions, specifically in homosexuality, and uses the Torah as the basis for this judgement. The verse says,
"and although they know the ordinance of G-d, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."
Where are the "ordinance(s) of G-d" found? Where is there found the death penalty for homosexual intercourse? In the Torah.
What are you advocating here? The death penalty for gays?
Oh wait, we don’t have to stone gays today because there is no priesthood. So, when the priesthood reforms, we can go back to stoning the heathen. Of course I’m being facetious, but this really does speak the issue. The Law is the Law. It’s penalties are harsh. The simple truth is that God has fulfilled that dispensation.
To stick with Romans, note also verses 13:8-10.
In the context of this chapter, this is certainly not a command to follow the Torah. It is a very practical reality of love. You see, what you are stating is actually backwards. What you guys are really saying is that your ability to keep the law produces love. Paul is saying the exact opposite. That love fulfills the Law. What was shadowed in the Law, you rightly point out. Don’t murder, don’t steal, etc. Of course. But you are flipping the entire message on its head to advocate a legal code that is no longer in effect.
Anyone can keep the law without love. However, when one knows the love of God, then they in turn will naturally fulfill those things. They won’t covet, or steal, or murder. Why? Love does no wrong to a neighbor. How you can see this as a promotion of the law is beyond me. It’s a promotion of something better. Let's not forget that we simply aren't talking about doing right versus wrong, which is what those commands deal with. You are advocating something much more. You are speaking of THE TORAH. Paul references the very real moral truths listed in the Law, and then it is conflated to an endorsement of keeping the Torah. Have you guys got some desire to stone people?
Right here Paul instructs believers to obey the Torah and its commandments.
Not even close.
Paul is enlightening the believer to the redeemed life that they have IN CHRIST.
Also, let's not forget Romans 7, which says in verse 7 that Paul knows what sin is only through the Torah, and in verse 12 says that the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
In light of Romans 1, where Paul has already stated that even lawless Gentiles know right from wrong.
Then, there's verse 14. This is a kicker for those who believe that there's one way of the Law, and then the way of the spirit/faith. Paul says that the Law is spiritual, as in of the spirit! They are not opposed, but go together.
Of course. It shows that we are wholy incapable of keeping the Law. "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." (Romans 7:10) That is a good thing. Again, not an instruction to keep the Law.
On to verse 16, Paul affirms that he agrees with the Torah, confessing that the Torah is good. Verse 22 says that he joyfully concurs with the Torah of G-d in the inner man, and verse 25 again reaffirms that Paul wanted to serve the Torah of G-d, although in his flesh he continued to struggle with sin and disobedience.
The Torah is good. Let's pleae stop implying otherwise.
Of course Paul says, "For I know that
good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I
cannot carry it out."
Paul is building a case. He is building towards chapter 8, where he speaks of walking in the Spirit. It seems that you think any reference to the Law is an endorsement to continue in it.
As far as your argument that without a Temple and a priesthood there's no relevance in the Torah right now, what do you think of the Babylonian exile? Was obedience to Torah obligatory when Israel was exiled from the Land (and the Temple) and couldn't perform the sacrificial ministry?
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It is an interesting question, but it is not related. Was God still working in the prophetic then? Of course. Israel has not been in exile for the past 2,000 years. Under the exile Israel was being chastened, and prophecy fulfilled.
