Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote: A generic faith? What is a 'generic' faith? Biblical references please. This is a common talking point of Lordship salvation. That faith isn't faith, but that faith is some mystical commodity.
Again, proper faith is placing trust in the appropiate object.

Again.. Having a knowledge or generic faith of the Lord doesn't save you. That is not a saving faith. Faith is also an action that is found in the willingness to be obedient to His word.

Acts 5:32, “And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Acts 24:14, Paul speaking, “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.”

Romans 2:13, “for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

jlay wrote:Demons are not offered salvation through faith. I think you are smart enough to know this. There have been plenty of discussions on James. If this is the line of interpreation you decide to take, you are left with no choice but to put Paul and James at odds, and thus pick which one to accept or reject.

Well according to James you are blessed in following the law..

James 1:25
But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

And according to Paul the law is not a sin so they are not contradicting themselves.

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

jlay wrote:Uhh, I think you should already be aware of dispensational views on the millenium.

Gladly.

jlay wrote:Have you ever been angry with another? If so, Jesus says you are guilty of the judgment. Again, if you are going to take this line of interpretation, you need to follow it all the way through consistently. If faith is more than believing, then I would hate to preach that Gospel, and bear the burden of living up to it. You've made it clear, a person's efforts and performance (taking a day off) contribute to salvation. That is a false Gospel.

No you are confusing the two.. Faith is also action but that action doesn't get you saved, its your faith or willingness that get's you saved. Sure we are guilty of judgement when we sin against our neighbor, but we are not under any condemnation..

Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,"

There is always a remnant saved by grace Romans 11:5. Therefore they haven't rejected the Messiah yet. In the end there will be a mass conversion.

jlay wrote:G, just curious, but do you know what "present time' means? That means, at the time of Paul writing his letter to the church in Rome.

And we still have the Jews today so nothing has changed. Where the Jews are there will always be a remnant living among them.

jlay wrote:The conversion will be from rejecting to accepting. So at this time they are..........rejecting. Is that really that hard to figure out? And therefore are broken off.

No.. Some maybe rejecting now, but later and NOW they are being grafted back in.

Romans 11:11-22

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

jlay wrote:And this makes your faith genuine and ours not??? Legalism, false Gospel. Ananthema.

No one is claiming a higher authority here..

jlay wrote:Uhhhh, try verse 1. Hear, ISRAEL. Then go through the chapter 6 and read how many times it says, "Hear, O Israel."

Well welcome to Israel...

Ephesians 2:19
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

The many dangers of trying to "proof text" ones understanding of scripture.
There are enough "proof texts" to lend weight to either position so, in the end, it is as Paul stated:
One man may hold a day as special and another may not, let each one be guided by their own conscience (paraphrasing of course).

RickD wrote:Gman, I know jlay answered this already, but is this meant to be a rhetorical question?

Deuteronomy 5:1-14
5 Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them:
“Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your [a]hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of [c]us alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. [d]He said,

6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [e]slavery.

Gman wrote:
Very good.. You have now fallen into my trap. And who is part of Israel? That's right.. You are. Anyone who accepts Christ is part of the commonwealth of Israel.

Ok, let's look at the verses you posted in support of your view that "Anyone who accepts Christ is part of the commonwealth of Israel."

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Verse 12: Gentiles were separate from Christ, because salvation was found only within the theocracy of Israel. Since Gentiles were foreigners and aliens to Israel, gentiles were without hope, and without God.

Verse 13: Gentiles have been brought near to God, by the blood of Christ.

Neither of these verses say that Gentiles have been transformed into Israelites.

Ephesians 2:19
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Gentiles were foreigners and strangers in the Theocracy of Israel, and since they weren't part of Israel, they had no way for salvation. Now, gentiles are fellow citizens in God's household. After Christ's death, salvation was offered outside of Israel, to the gentiles.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Believing gentiles are now heirs together with Israel, members of one body,...This doesn't say that Gentiles are now part of Israel. But, by the sacrifice of Christ, salvation has been offered to those outside of Israel.

RickD wrote:Is Jesus Christ the believer's true Sabbath rest, or not?


Gman wrote:
Ultimately yes..

To those who think all believers need to obey the sabbath laws, remember, Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest. Just like all Old Testament animal sacrifices were mere shadows of Christ's sacrifice, all Old Testament Sabbaths were mere shadows of Christ, who is the believer's Sabbath rest. Animal sacrifice is no longer needed to cover sins, because Christ's sacrifice covered sins once and for all. In the same way, Sabbath adherence is no longer needed, because we now have Sabbath rest in Christ. Animal sacrifices served their purpose, to point to Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. Old testament Sabbath laws served their purpose. They pointed to Christ, the true Sabbath rest.

Again.. Having a knowledge or generic faith of the Lord doesn't save you.

Gman, sorry but now you are playing with definitions. The words 'knowledge' and 'faith' are not synonomous, and no one is using them as such. I have provided a basic definition of how I am using the term. If you want to challenge that, I suggest you do so and stop attacking straw men, as that is not how I am using the word.

James 1:25
But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Let's see, you conflate every usage of the word 'law' to be the Hebrew convenant, specifically regarding Sabbath keeping. Then Paul equates the Law (the Hebrew covenant) to bondage in one sense, (Gal. 4) and you imply that James is saying the opposite, that it (or keeping the Sabbath in this case) offers freedom. I hope you see that this exegesis is a mess of contradiction .

Sure we are guilty of judgement when we sin against our neighbor, but we are not under any condemnation..

Then consistently apply that. So, when you get angry with someone post salvation, you don't lose your salvation. Then why do you imply that some sins will?
Or, maybe you can elaborate on what you mean here,

That isn't the point, are you saying that you can still remain a murderer or thief and still remain in Christ?? That is just wrong on many levels.

No one is claiming a higher authority here..

You are claiming that Sabbath keeping is still to be done. Not that it is merely what one decides in his own heart, but that it is required. And not only that, but it is an evidence that one loves God and has "genuine" faith. Therefore, this strongly implies that those who reject a Sabbath in this dispensation are disobedient, don't love God, and aren't really saved.

RickD wrote: Ok, let's look at the verses you posted in support of your view that "Anyone who accepts Christ is part of the commonwealth of Israel."

Verse 12: Gentiles were separate from Christ, because salvation was found only within the theocracy of Israel. Since Gentiles were foreigners and aliens to Israel, gentiles were without hope, and without God.

Verse 13: Gentiles have been brought near to God, by the blood of Christ.

Neither of these verses say that Gentiles have been transformed into Israelites.

No Rick.. Read it again. "Salvation was found ONLY within the theocracy of Israel." Read Jeremiah 31: 31-34. The new covenant is only being made to the house of Israel. You don't want to belong to the people of Israel? You have to jump down to Ephesians 2:19 for the full context..

Jeremiah 31: 31-34

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

RickD wrote:Gentiles were foreigners and strangers in the Theocracy of Israel, and since they weren't part of Israel, they had no way for salvation. Now, gentiles are fellow citizens in God's household. After Christ's death, salvation was offered outside of Israel, to the gentiles.

Ephesians 2:19 says Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, We are co-citizens with house of Israel.. It's NOT the house of gentiles, it's the house of Israel.

RickD wrote:Believing gentiles are now heirs together with Israel, members of one body,...This doesn't say that Gentiles are now part of Israel. But, by the sacrifice of Christ, salvation has been offered to those outside of Israel.

No.. Ephesians 3:6 says we are co-heirs together WITH Israel..If we are members of one body how can we be separate from Israel?

jlay wrote:Gman, sorry but now you are playing with definitions. The words 'knowledge' and 'faith' are not synonomous, and no one is using them as such. I have provided a basic definition of how I am using the term. If you want to challenge that, I suggest you do so and stop attacking straw men, as that is not how I am using the word.

You have given no real definition of a saving faith or sin. Your definitions are separated from G-d's commandments, calling them cursed, therefore what you have is only pure conjecture based on nothing. Sorry to be so blunt..

jlay wrote:Let's see, you conflate every usage of the word 'law' to be the Hebrew convenant, specifically regarding Sabbath keeping. Then Paul equates the Law (the Hebrew covenant) to bondage in one sense, (Gal. 4) and you imply that James is saying the opposite, that it (or keeping the Sabbath in this case) offers freedom. I hope you see that this exegesis is a mess of contradiction.

Gal. 4 says nothing about G-d's laws as being bondage.. That is just silly. The Bible on the other hand says that those who call the Sabbath a delight will find your joy in the LORD.

Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

jlay wrote:Then consistently apply that. So, when you get angry with someone post salvation, you don't lose your salvation. Then why do you imply that some sins will?
Or, maybe you can elaborate on what you mean here

I have never said that when someone sins they will loose their salvation since we all do. If someone wants to willing disobey it's possible they were never saved to begin with.

jlay wrote:You are claiming that Sabbath keeping is still to be done. Not that it is merely what one decides in his own heart, but that it is required. And not only that, but it is an evidence that one loves God and has "genuine" faith. Therefore, this strongly implies that those who reject a Sabbath in this dispensation are disobedient, don't love God, and aren't really saved.

Yes.. We keep the Sabbath because we want to love and obey Him. It is possible however that people that do not understand the commandment are saved too. I'm not sure on that since I'm not G-d. But if you call G-d's laws a curse that is rather strange.

No Rick.. Read it again. "Salvation was found ONLY within the theocracy of Israel." Read Jeremiah 31: 31-34. The new covenant is only being made to the house of Israel. You don't want to belong to the people of Israel? You have to jump down to Ephesians 2:19 for the full context..

Gman, I agree that salvation WAS found only in the theocracy of Israel, in the old covenant. Where specifically does the bible say the new covenant under Christ is being made ONLY to the house of Israel? Gentiles now have the opportunity for salvation, along WITH Israel. Not as a part OF Israel.

Ephesians 2:19 says Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, We are co-citizens with house of Israel.. It's NOT the house of gentiles, it's the house of Israel.

No Gman. We are co-citizens with Israel in GOD's household.

No.. Ephesians 3:6 says we are co-heirs together WITH Israel..If we are members of one body how can we be separate from Israel?

I agree that we are co-heirs together with Israel. We are members of one body. I agree. But we are not the theocracy of Israel which is the only place that the old testament laws apply.

Again we are co-heirs WITH Israel. We are not theocratic Israel.

Gman wrote:
I have never said that when someone sins they will loose their salvation since we all do. If someone wants to willing disobey it's possible they were never saved to begin with.

Since we're talking about obeying the OT sabbath laws, and some of us are "willfully disobeying" laws that we don't believe apply to us, I hope you're not saying that believers who willfully don't obey OT sabbath laws may never have been saved to begin with.

RickD wrote: Gman, I agree that salvation WAS found only in the theocracy of Israel, in the old covenant. Where specifically does the bible say the new covenant under Christ is being made ONLY to the house of Israel? Gentiles now have the opportunity for salvation, along WITH Israel. Not as a part OF Israel.

Right here amigo... I already gave you Jeremiah 31: 31-34 but here it is also in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Hebrews 8:6-13

6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

No Gman. We are co-citizens with Israel in GOD's household.

G-d's household includes Israel no doubt about that.. But it also includes Judah, Jeremiah 31: 31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13.

I agree that we are co-heirs together with Israel. We are members of one body. I agree. But we are not the theocracy of Israel which is the only place that the old testament laws apply.
Again we are co-heirs WITH Israel. We are not theocratic Israel.

We better be apart of the theocracy of Israel. That is who Christ is coming for and to eventually restore...

Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Acts 1:6
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

RickD wrote: Since we're talking about obeying the OT sabbath laws, and some of us are "willfully disobeying" laws that we don't believe apply to us, I hope you're not saying that believers who willfully don't obey OT sabbath laws may never have been saved to begin with.

If you are saying that the Sabbath doesn't apply to you then how could you be disobeying it? Again, I believe the Holy Spirit needs to convict you of it. Not me or anyone else.

RickD wrote:
Gman, I agree that salvation WAS found only in the theocracy of Israel, in the old covenant. Where specifically does the bible say the new covenant under Christ is being made ONLY to the house of Israel? Gentiles now have the opportunity for salvation, along WITH Israel. Not as a part OF Israel.


Right here amigo... I already gave you Jeremiah 31: 31-34 but here it is also in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Ok, I guess we're at an impasse. Obviously we read the same verses, and see something different.

After going over this myself, something came to mind. Israel of God vs. The nation of Israel. Is there a difference?

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote: Since we're talking about obeying the OT sabbath laws, and some of us are "willfully disobeying" laws that we don't believe apply to us, I hope you're not saying that believers who willfully don't obey OT sabbath laws may never have been saved to begin with.

If you are saying that the Sabbath doesn't apply to you then how could you be disobeying it? Again, I believe the Holy Spirit needs to convict you of it. Not me or anyone else.

Ok. So, until and IF the Holy Spirit convicts me, would it be fair to say that Sabbath worship is a matter of conscience between a believer and God?

RickD wrote: Ok, I guess we're at an impasse. Obviously we read the same verses, and see something different.

After going over this myself, something came to mind. Israel of God vs. The nation of Israel. Is there a difference?

Well Israel is a secular nation right now.. So I wouldn't exactly say the current nation of Israel is G-dly.. So yes there is a difference. But I believe G-d has gathered His people (the Jewish remnant) back to the land to complete His promise. Also I believe that part of your answer resides in Romans 9:6. Not all of Israel is Israel...

Romans 9:6 " But the present condition of Isra’el does not mean that the Word of God has failed. For not everyone from Israel is truly part of Israel."

Right now we have secular Zion, eventually however it will transform to Biblical Zion.

RickD wrote: Ok. So, until and IF the Holy Spirit convicts me, would it be fair to say that Sabbath worship is a matter of conscience between a believer and God?

I don't have a straight answer for you Rick.. Actually I don't believe we HAVE to do the commandments to get saved.. We do them because we want to please Him. We react out of love and respect. Perhaps some are still blind to this, some aren't, I don't know...

I would say for myself, that as a believer if I disobey His commandments as explained in the Torah, I sin.