Evidence for God from Science

zacchaeus wrote:...but, what if you knew beforehand, without doubt, the plane WILL crash- can you choose to believe it won't?

well, I suppose you could but that would be a bit daft, wouldn`t it?

Storyteller wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:...but, what if you knew beforehand, without doubt, the plane WILL crash- can you choose to believe it won't?

well, I suppose you could but that would be a bit daft, wouldn`t it?

Daft is it.
The chooserites are looserites.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Nicki wrote:I personally think there's not much choice involved in belief. If something's obviously true and you're fully convinced of it you can hardly believe otherwise - but that's knowing rather than believing. If something's more unknown you can be influenced by evidence one way or the other but that leads you to a certain level of belief - not so much belief that you've chosen. You can decide that the evidence is enough to trust in God, that he wants us to have faith in him even though he doesn't make himself completely obvious. Maybe that's what you 'choice' people were talking about

be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.


It really isn't that difficult.

We ALL choose what to believe in and by that very act, what NOT to believe in.

There are two different words for a very important reason: they mean different things.

Try this": You are falling from an airplane. You can choose (an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.) to think it is not true.

or you can believe it.

Ha. I gave you an either / or, two possibilities. Choose one!

If you are falling from a plane, there isn`t a choice though is there? A better example may be that you board the plane and believe that it won`t crash, despite the fact that sometimes they do. You choose to believe it won`t even though there is a chance it will.

There you go.

It seems to me that what we have here are two ways of looking at things:

1) People that understand that everything we do, including believing, involves a choice of some sort.
2) People that believe there is no choice, that you either believe or you don't and that, somehow, what you believe or do not believe is NOT a choice you make.

Binary thinking comes trundling in, on cue.

zacchaeus wrote:...but, what if you knew beforehand, without doubt, the plane WILL crash- can you choose to believe it won't?

Let's see if this helps:
You would choose to either believe or not that the information you have the leads to you knowing the plane will crash is true.
Its not about choosing to believe the plane would crash, its about choosing IF the evidence you have that makes you believe the plan will crash is true.

As much as you can try to take choice out of the equation, you simply can't.
Unless you through reasoning out the window ( or the plane).

zacchaeus wrote:Plane example was good

Only if you don't understand the question.

The issue is NOT believing if you are falling out of the plane because that is a given fact ( unless you are dreaming of course but that is a different issue).


My question is actually very simple and no one has answered it:

Do you believe that you have a choice in what you believe?

If you say that belief is not a choice then that means that what you believe , you have no choice but to believe in.

Is that what you are saying? that you have no choice in what to believe?

PaulSacramento wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:Plane example was good

Only if you don't understand the question.

The issue is NOT believing if you are falling out of the plane because that is a given fact ( unless you are dreaming of course but that is a different issue).


My question is actually very simple and no one has answered it:

Do you believe that you have a choice in what you believe?

If you say that belief is not a choice then that means that what you believe , you have no choice but to believe in.

Is that what you are saying? that you have no choice in what to believe?

Sometimes it is a choice, a sort of negative example being "willing suspension of disbelief".

Or you can provisionally choose to believe someone's story.

I chose to believe that a counselor would be helpful to me, dealing with trauma. She wasnt. It wasnt a crushing world changing thing for me to find she was not helpful, that was another provisional belief.

I cannot choose to believe in god, because I do not, and it would simply be self deception.

And here we come to the crux of the matter and why belief has become such a "taboo" word with some atheists (like faith and hope for some).

I cannot choose to believe in god, because I do not, and it would simply be self deception.

Choosing to believe in God is like choosing to believe in any other intangible, anything else that one can't, TYPICALLY ( becomes some can) see, hear, touch, smell and taste.
Putting aside personal revelation for now.
There is evidence for God, there are multiple lines of evidence for God.
It is up to the individual to decide, ie, choose, if the evidence adds up enough for belief.
The point is that we CHOOSE whether the evidence is enough or not.
In short we choose to either believe or not.

You say that choosing to believe in God would be, for you, self deception.
Well, that all depends on what evidence, if any, you choose to believe.
You have been, I am sure, presented evidence and you have decided, ie: chosen, to not believe that the evidence is good enough to believe in God.
Correct?

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:
No Ken, you are misunderstanding what choosing to believe means.
Either you choose what to believe or don't believe in ( based on evidence, reasoning, personal experience, etc) or you are saying that you have NO CHOICE in what to believe or don't.
So which is it?

If Bill Gates (the richest man on Earth) offered to give you a billion dollars if you could choose to believe you could fly like a bird, could you convince yourself that you could do it? I can't; I may be able to pretend I have convinced myself in order to get the money, but deep down I would know I was lying. If I were able to choose what I beleive, I would be able to do this

Ken

That is not what I asked you Ken.

I’ve got a feeling we have different definitions of what it means to choose to believe. In an effort to prevent us from talking past each other let me get a few things straight first so I can know where you are coming from. Before you said we choose to believe based upon evidence, reasoning, or personal experience. Is this required? Or do you believe you can still choose to believe something without evidence, reason, or personal experience.

Ken

Choice is choice ken,m don't over complicate it.
People choose to believe that evidence = A or they choose NOT believe it.

I think choose is the wrong word; I think conclude is a better word. If I am looking for evidence to support "A" I will come to the conclusion that the evidence is either credible or not. If I choose to believe it, I think that is being biased.

K

Semantics ken.

choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Your "conclusion" is a choice, a decision based on the evidence showing you the possibilities.

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:...but, what if you knew beforehand, without doubt, the plane WILL crash- can you choose to believe it won't?

well, I suppose you could but that would be a bit daft, wouldn`t it?

Daft is it.
The chooserites are looserites.

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:...but, what if you knew beforehand, without doubt, the plane WILL crash- can you choose to believe it won't?

well, I suppose you could but that would be a bit daft, wouldn`t it?

Daft is it.
The chooserites are looserites.

Audie, so you know the difference between loose and lose?

Hilarious, if drinking the 'daft light'

Audie, so you know the difference between loose and lose?

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:...but, what if you knew beforehand, without doubt, the plane WILL crash- can you choose to believe it won't?

well, I suppose you could but that would be a bit daft, wouldn`t it?

Daft is it.
The chooserites are looserites.

Audie, so you know the difference between loose and lose?

Do you know the diff between a touch of poesy and drab ol' prose?

PaulSacramento wrote:Semantics ken.

choice
CHois/Submit
noun
1.an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Your "conclusion" is a choice, a decision based on the evidence showing you the possibilities.

At the risk of over complicating things again; here is how I see it.

I think to believe is similar to learning. I can choose to not learn (example) Algebra by refusing to educate myself in that field. Once I choose to allow myself to become educated, I wouldn’t say I chose to learn but rather that learning is the natural result of allowing myself to receive this information.

Now receiving algebra education is not always going to result in learning, some people will allow themselves the same education but for some reason they still don’t understand algebra and probably never will understand it. Its not that they are choosing not to learn it, it’s just that the natural process of learning upon receiving algebra information does not apply to everyone.

By the same token, I would also say someone could choose NOT to believe “A” by refusing to look at evidence that supports it. Once a person chooses to look at the evidence that supports “A”, I wouldn’t say they chose to believe “A” but rather believing is the natural result of receiving evidence that supports “A”.

Now receiving evidence that supports “A” isn’t always going to result in believing it, there are some who will look at the evidence and doubt it even though someone else will receive the evidence and believe. Now I would’t claim one person is choosing to believe and the other is choosing not to, I would say the natural process of believing “A” doesn’t always result when receiving evidence that supports it.

Hope that helps.

Ken

So you can choose to not believe something but you can`t choose to believe something?