The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....

[RickD]

I don't have a straight answer for you Rick.. Actually I don't believe we HAVE to do the commandments to get saved.. We do them because we want to please Him. We react out of love and respect. Perhaps some are still blind to this, some aren't, I don't know...

That's interesting, Gman. I think I come at this from a different perspective than you. I simply obey the commandments(to love God and my neighbor), because my conscience and the Holy Spirit convicts me to. When I obey(because too often I fail) the love God and neighbor commandments,
I obey because the commands are written in my heart so to speak. When I "love my neighbor as myself" in a certain situation, I do it because God has given me the desire to do it. Not because I try to please God. And of course there are too many times that I fail miserably because at those times, I love myself more than I love God or my neighbor. Nevertheless, I think it's an interesting distinction.

[Gman]

That's interesting, Gman. I think I come at this from a different perspective than you. I simply obey the commandments(to love God and my neighbor), because my conscience and the Holy Spirit convicts me to. When I obey(because too often I fail) the love God and neighbor commandments,
I obey because the commands are written in my heart so to speak. When I "love my neighbor as myself" in a certain situation, I do it because God has given me the desire to do it. Not because I try to please God. And of course there are too many times that I fail miserably because at those times, I love myself more than I love God or my neighbor. Nevertheless, I think it's an interesting distinction.

Oh yes... And you ARE fulfilling G-d's laws when you "love my neighbor as myself" Leviticus 19:18. There is no question there.. But true we all fail in certain areas of His laws. So I don't claim to be an expert in His laws either.. If I did I would be really worried about myself..

[jlay]

I have never said that when someone sins they will loose their salvation since we all do. If someone wants to willing disobey it's possible they were never saved to begin with.

OK, But what if someone willingly sins? Can a saved person willingly sin, yes or no? Even murder?

Your definitions are separated from G-d's commandments, calling them cursed, therefore what you have is only pure conjecture based on nothing. Sorry to be so blunt..

I have no problem with you being blunt. So to put it bluntly, you are misrepresenting me and now making bald assertions.

Gal. 4 says nothing about G-d's laws as being bondage.. That is just silly.

Gal. 4:9,Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

The Bible on the other hand says that those who call the Sabbath a delight will find your joy in the LORD.

Isaiah 58:13-14

Which covenant in effect here?

But if you call G-d's laws a curse that is rather strange.

What are you talking about?
Gal. 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law
Gal. 4:17.21Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them.
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
Gal. 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

[RickD]

If anyone is interested in this subject, I happened upon a blog that is about the old covenant and the new covenant. The blog itself is good, but the discussion in the replies gets into a great discussion, and the sabbath law is discussed. Here's the blog, and be sure to read the comments, especially those of brianhyde. He makes some great points.http://outoftheoverflow.com/2009/09/22/ ... the-bible/

[B. W.]

If anyone is interested in this subject, I happened upon a blog that is about the old covenant and the new covenant. The blog itself is good, but the discussion in the replies gets into a great discussion, and the sabbath law is discussed. Here's the blog, and be sure to read the comments, especially those of brianhyde. He makes some great points.http://outoftheoverflow.com/2009/09/22/ ... the-bible/

Quote from Rick's suggested Link...

http://outoftheoverflow.com/2009/09/22/ ... the-bible/

Likewise, there are three kinds of laws in the Old Testament.

First, there are ceremonial laws, which are related to the priesthood, sacrifices, temple, and cleanness. These are now fulfilled in Jesus (for example, nearly the entire book of Hebrews addresses this issue for Jews who struggled with the Old Testament laws once they were saved). These laws are no longer binding on us because Jesus is our Priest, Sacrifice, Temple, and Cleanser.

Second, there are civil laws, which refer to the governing of Israel as a nation ruled by God. Since we are no longer a theocracy, these laws, while insightful, are not directly binding on us. As Romans 13 says, we must now obey our pagan government because God will work through it, too.

Third, there are moral laws, which prohibit such things as stealing, murdering, and lying. These laws are still binding on us even though Jesus fulfilled their requirements through His sinless life. Jesus Himself repeats and reinforces nine of the Ten Commandments. The only exception is the Sabbath, because that is part of the ceremonial law. Now our rest is in the finished work of Jesus, not just a day.

In Summary, the ceremonial and civil laws of the Old Testament are no longer binding on us, while the moral laws are.

Interesting way to bring this to light.

As I read these post listed on this thread, it appears to me that those writing should try to define what each person means by "Obeying the Lord"

I think Obeying means different things to differing people here and not understanding what each person means presents a problem...

So what does Obeying the Lord mean to you all?
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[Gman]

OK, But what if someone willingly sins? Can a saved person willingly sin, yes or no? Even murder?

The decision is theirs.. If they don't want to follow G-d, then that is their choice.

Gal. 4:9,Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

That verse say's nothing about G-d's laws as being enslavement. That is your interpretation. The only enslavement that happens is when you take a legalistic approach to G-d laws to where you think you can "work" your way to salvation. Consequently, we are NOT to let anyone pass judgment on us in regard to a Biblical festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. Why? Because these are a shadow of the things that are COMING in Christ. Not something in the past, something for the future..

Colossians 2:16-17
So don’t let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Biblical festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. 17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.

Which covenant in effect here?

G-d's...

What are you talking about?
Gal. 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law

Amen!! Christ saved us from the CURSE of the law.. That does not say that the law is a curse however...

Galatians 3:13
13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the Torah by becoming cursed on our behalf; for the Tanakh says, “Everyone who hangs from a stake comes under a curse.

Gal. 4:17.21Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them.

Again those perverting the Torah into legalism... But not the Torah itself.

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
Gal. 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Nothing again that say's G-d's laws are slavery.. People can turn them into legalism, but when it is practiced correctly it brings blessings and freedom.

James 1:25
But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

[Gman]

In Summary, the ceremonial and civil laws of the Old Testament are no longer binding on us, while the moral laws are.

Sorry I use to believe this too.. But not anymore. I don't see anything, especially in the NT that says that G-d's laws in the Tanach are done away with now. Rather Christ showed us how to walk G-d's laws, but not destroy them. Actually it's kind of funny that many churches talk about the moral laws but then leave in other commandments like tithing and say we should do those.

Interesting way to bring this to light.

As I read these post listed on this thread, it appears to me that those writing should try to define what each person means by "Obeying the Lord"

I think Obeying means different things to differing people here and not understanding what each person means presents a problem...

So what does Obeying the Lord mean to you all?

That obeying is synonymous with faith.. They go hand in hand.

[B. W.]

...That obeying is synonymous with faith.. They go hand in hand.

So for you obeying is defined as Faith, is that what you mean?

Can you explain this a bit more?
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[Gman]

...That obeying is synonymous with faith.. They go hand in hand.

So for you obeying is defined as Faith, is that what you mean?

Can you explain this a bit more?
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Sure Bryan.. We know that faith is a trust, but it is also an action. So obeying would fit into that as well.. Much like faith without works is dead James 2:14-26. Again, I would say the type of work defines the faith. But holiness or faith actions only come from G-d.

[RickD]

B. W. Asked:
So what does Obeying the Lord mean to you all?

obey:
1. To comply with the commands, orders or instructions of a superior, or with the requirements of law, moral, political or municipal; to do that which is commanded or required, or to forbear doing that which is prohibited.

Gman wrote:
That obeying is synonymous with faith.. They go hand in hand.

Gman, I couldn't agree more. I think this, from the link I posted, explains how we obey according to the new covenant:

The OC (Law through Moses) ministered law externally, demanding outward obedience (behaviour) in exchange for physical blessings but it was unable to produce a change of heart or attitude. The NC (Spirit through Christ) ministers law internally (Jer 31:31-34) creating obedience from the heart. The heart is renewed (), resulting in a change of spirit, attitude and behaviour. The OC law was written on stone or paper (2 Cor 3); the NC law is written on the heart. The NC is not the Ten Commandments but a reformulation of ALL old covenant laws (“moral” and “ceremonial”) into their highest spiritual intent and summed up in divine love. In other words, it is the same law but with a change of form and mode of expression. The first is “letter”; the second is “spirit”. Result? – Obedience.

[Gman]

The OC (Law through Moses) ministered law externally, demanding outward obedience (behaviour) in exchange for physical blessings but it was unable to produce a change of heart or attitude. The NC (Spirit through Christ) ministers law internally (Jer 31:31-34) creating obedience from the heart. The heart is renewed (), resulting in a change of spirit, attitude and behaviour. The OC law was written on stone or paper (2 Cor 3); the NC law is written on the heart. The NC is not the Ten Commandments but a reformulation of ALL old covenant laws (“moral” and “ceremonial”) into their highest spiritual intent and summed up in divine love. In other words, it is the same law but with a change of form and mode of expression. The first is “letter”; the second is “spirit”. Result? – Obedience.

Sure I don't have a problem with that. Christ revealed how to walk G-d's commandments... Therefore we need the NT on how to decrypt the OT, but we don't replace the OT or G-d's commandments now either. That is all I'm saying. Sure, Christ fulfilled the payments for our sins, we don't need animal sacrifices for that anymore although in the millennium that will come back as a memorial to Him according to Ezekiel.

But the rest? Hey if G-d' wants me to party and take a day off of work.. I WANT THAT TOO..

[KBCid]

Christ revealed how to walk G-d's commandments...

This is a key understanding G.

Christ revealed / magnified how to walk G-d's commandments. The question for those who assert that there are no commandments to obey anymore should be requird to explain why Christ magnified his fathers commandments if in fact they had no further use past his resurection.
Why would anyone teach something that was being done away with? what logical sense would that make? Further, if the only thing we are required to obey is to believe in Christ for forgiveness of sins then why waste time and effort to magnify old out of date commandments?
To assert that the decalogue was a temporary institution that only applied to jews for a limited time completely ignores where it came from and where it was intended to eventually reside.
Gods laws existed outside the heart in a written state for the jews and the world to comprehend. In the new covenant those same commandments along with the magnification that Christ applied to them were to be written on the heart. These laws are supposed to 'govern' our actions. They are there to help guide those who are actively "by choice" trying to become holy. So if anyone asserts that the commands hold no meaning for our salvation or they try to be selective on which ones have application then they are denying the meaning given to them by the source who gave them.

This thread is ultimately about the sabbath day and not about the decalogue and as such we should also be looking at that part specifically.
The first thing we should consider about this is that the seventh day was made holy and blessed by God. Second this was done long before there was a jew. Third this has not and cannot be overturned.

So if we al know that God himself made it holy and his act of observation for the day he made holy was to rest and not labor then what actions are we (who assert to love him with all our being) supposed to do on that day? If we work on that day are we showing God that we love him and honor his actions?
I would say no. To work on the day he made holy is to disrespect both the holiness of the day and the one who made it holy. To assert that we have the power to apply that holiness to any day of the week is imply to Gods face that you have the power to change what he has set from the beginning of the creation.

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,
The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday! –p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937. (First published in 1566)

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God...

If it is the sabbath of the Lord 'our' God is seventh day then why would it not also be ours if we love him with all our being?

[RickD]

Genesis 2:1-4 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [a]and made.

KBC, if the first six days weren't 24 hours, why do you assume the 7th day in verse 2, is 24 hours? How do you know the 7th day isn't still ongoing? And furthermore, how do you know the sabbath commandment isn't a symbol of God's ongoing rest from creation. Not to mention, a symbol or foreshadowing of our ultimate sabbath rest in Christ?

[jlay]

The question for those who assert that there are no commandments to obey anymore should be requird to explain why Christ magnified his fathers commandments if in fact they had no further use past his resurection.
Why would anyone teach something that was being done away with? what logical sense would that make? Further, if the only thing we are required to obey is to believe in Christ for forgiveness of sins then why waste time and effort to magnify old out of date commandments?
To assert that the decalogue was a temporary institution that only applied to jews for a limited time completely ignores where it came from and where it was intended to eventually reside.

this logically fails. Here is why. Did Jesus tell His disciples that the food laws would be done away with after the resurrection? There is nothing to indicate such. Yet, do you consider Peter's vision in Acts scriptural?
I think Jac pointed out that the Law hasn't changed. But, the Law is contingent on a literal, physical, earthly theocracy. That was established at Sinai and fell, and is not currently in affect. (That isn't an argument against God restoring Israel at some future time.)

So if anyone asserts that the commands hold no meaning for our salvation or they try to be selective on which ones have application then they are denying the meaning given to them by the source who gave them.

No one is saying they don't have meaning. But I don't think that is what you are saying. I think you are saying that following the commandments, in this case, keeping the Sabbath, is contingent to salvation. By which, you have just questioned the salvation of nearly every Christian poster on this forum.

To work on the day he made holy is to disrespect both the holiness of the day and the one who made it holy.

Well perhaps you can access a Jewish calendar and let us all know which day it is that we are disrespecting God.

[KBCid]

Genesis 2:1-4 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [a]and made.
KBC, if the first six days weren't 24 hours, why do you assume the 7th day in verse 2, is 24 hours?

Who is assuming that a day equals anything other than a period of time? I certainly don't infer any specific set of hours and minutes for the creation days. What I do know is that our creator performed acts during 7 distinct time periods. Periods that he defined. Now he defined those periods during that 'time' as having distinct separation points or dividing points;

Gen 1:5 ...And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:8 ...And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:13 ...And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:19 ...And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:23 ...And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:31 ...And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

A significant part of the creation week description was this defining of the divisions of it. None of these time periods was defined by hours and minutes which is a human interpretation. How long was an evening for God? How long was a morning? how long was his day?
No one here can empirically define these things. In fact if we look at genesis carefully there was evenings and mornings before there was a sun to make our perception of evening and morning occur. So how could God possibly experience an evening and a morning before he Formed the stars and planets which currently define our time keeping?
We should not assume anything more than what God himself is pointing out. He created in between mornings and evenings and when these things occur he called it a day or a specific period of time. For me I have chosen not to go beyond what is being stated by our maker.
He has stated clearly that our perception of time is not the same as his and when he inspired the genesis account he used a symbolic way of communication that man could comprehend. We experience time periods that also have evenings and mornings and we also divide our seven day weeks based on the same rules he set forth about dividing periods we call days.
Being the 'same' amount of hours and minutes has nothing whatsoever to do with observing time periods in the same manner as our maker does. He knows we don't possess the same sight he does this is why he gives us physical queue's so that we may be able to mimic what he does just as our children mimic what we do. Our hope is to be as much like our maker as he wishes us to be and we can do this by observing the same points that he has provided for our use.

How do you know the 7th day isn't still ongoing?

Because if it was then God could never have commanded a cyclical observation of it.

And furthermore, how do you know the sabbath commandment isn't a symbol of God's ongoing rest from creation.

Note here Rick that I am not referring to the commandment. The seventh day was made holy and blessed from the creation and since that time the first day of the week keeps coming after the seventh. Time did not stop at the seventh day and it did not continue to be counted up. God made the week cyclical... a symbolic reliving of the same week over and over. Seven periods of time that will ultimately end in the final day... the seventh symbolic day when those who overcome will be able to rest in Christ and God. Note also that no where in scripture is Gods rest referenced to anything other than the seventh day or seventh period of time. God made the seventh day holy and blessed... forever. That day or symbolic period of cyclical time will never cease to be observed for its symbolic meaning.

Not to mention, a symbol or foreshadowing of our ultimate sabbath rest in Christ?

indeed the seventh day is also symbolic of the rest we could at some point have in Christ. So why honor any other period of time as the sabbath? The seventh day sabbath is our symbolic day to honor everything represented by it.