Evidence for God from Science

there was one other person earlier on that said he could not say in good conscience that you could sin and still go to heaven.

I'm not saying that it is a condition but it is evidence that we are saved. It is the evidence of things not seen.



that is why I refer to these two verses

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Isn't that what this two verse are saying if not then what are they saying

jpbg33 wrote:there was one other person earlier on that said he could not say in good conscience that you could sin and still go to heaven.

I'm not saying that it is a condition but it is evidence that we are saved. It is the evidence of things not seen.


that is why I refer to these two verses

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Isn't that what this two verse are saying if not then what are they saying

YOU STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND! BY MAKING GOOD WORKS THE EVIDENCE, YOU ARE MAKING IT A CONDITION!

These verses are talking about having a close relationship with God. Not about being saved. It's about having an intimate relationship with God. It's not about salvation.

And it gets back to the point you're still not understanding. One can be saved, yet not really know God. Just like one can be married, but not really know one's spouse. One can be saved, and not produce good works. Good works is a condition of abiding in Christ. Not a condition of salvation.

1) If a believer abides in Christ, he will produce good works.

2) If a believer does not abide in Christ, he may not produce good works.

Notice that in 1 and 2, both are believers. Both are saved.

I do not believe we can be a Christian and not abides in Christ. I'm really curious where do you get that.

a question was asked how can I love God all the time

Well I believe it is like this. In my life there are people that I love very much but I'm not thinking on them all the time, but just because I'm not thinking on them does not mean I stop loving them. If I mistakenly hurt them it is because of and accident, or I was no think on them when I did what I did. That is why the bible say to walk after the Spirit not after the flesh. Because if you are walking after the flesh you may end up hurting Him. Not because you do not love Him but because you were not thinking on Him.

jpbg33 wrote:I do not believe we can be a Christian and not abides in Christ. I'm really curious where do you get that.

Those who are disciplined, were they abiding in Christ? Why they were reproved?

Hebrews 12:5-6 ESV
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives

jpbg wrote:
I do not believe we can be a Christian and not abides in Christ. I'm really curious where do you get that.

One place is John 15:1-11
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [c]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [d]prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

I wrote:
I do not believe we can be a Christian and not abides in Christ. I'm really curious where do you get that.

RickD wrote:
One place is John 15:1-11
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [c]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [d]prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

How do you explain verse 6

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

it sounds like to me here that if you do not abide in Jesus then you are thrown into hell. So if that is true then all Christians abide in Christ.

1over137 wrote:
Those who are disciplined, were they abiding in Christ? Why they were reproved?

Hebrews 12:5-6 ESV
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives

I believe that is talking about people who have sinned unwillfully God allows the consequences of there sin to come on them. To show them that they are wrong and why He can't allow us to live that way, and to give us a chance to repent before he has to remove us from the vine. That is his mercy.


I am not trying to say NO YOU ARE WRONG but I am trying to see where these believes come from and y'alls opinion on where y'all think I am getting it wrong.
I do not think I am getting it wrong, but I would like to understand y'alls point of view better.

jpbg wrote:
How do you explain verse 6

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

it sounds like to me here that if you do not abide in Jesus then you are thrown into hell. So if that is true then all Christians abide in Christ.

Of course that sounds like that to you, because you are letting your theology interpret the verses. Instead of letting the verses, in their proper context, interpret themselves. Only by reading into the verse would you think it's talking about hell. It doesn't even mention hell. Fire doesn't always mean hell.

Fire is used throughout scripture to symbolize judgement of believers and non-believers. So maybe the fire symbolizes the judgement of believers(judgement pertaining to rewards). Or maybe the mention of fire is incidental, since vinedressers burned the branches they cut off during pruning.

The point of the story, is that Jesus encouraged his disciples to abide in him, so they would bear fruit.

Saying it means loss of salvation goes against John's writing that salvation is by grace, through faith alone.

I wrote:
How do you explain verse 6

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

it sounds like to me here that if you do not abide in Jesus then you are thrown into hell. So if that is true then all Christians abide in Christ.

RickD wrote:

Of course that sounds like that to you, because you are letting your theology interpret the verses. Instead of letting the verses, in their proper context, interpret themselves. Only by reading into the verse would you think it's talking about hell. It doesn't even mention hell. Fire doesn't always mean hell.

Fire is used throughout scripture to symbolize judgement of believers and non-believers. So maybe the fire symbolizes the judgement of believers(judgement pertaining to rewards). Or maybe the mention of fire is incidental, since vinedressers burned the branches they cut off during pruning.

The point of the story, is that Jesus encouraged his disciples to abide in him, so they would bear fruit.

Saying it means loss of salvation goes against John's writing that salvation is by grace, through faith alone.

Semper fidelis (always faithful). That is what God is. He will always remain true to what He promises. Count on it.

I am not saying that I am saved by anything other then faith. What I am saying is that I know that I am saved by my works.

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


according to the Hebrew and Greek dictionary the word G3129; a learner, that is, pupil: - disciple.

all Christians are suppose to be leaners of Jesus Christ

Christians are not all Apostles, but all Christians are disciple.


I see why you have to say that, but I do not agree with it. I do not think any thing is in the bible incidentally. I think that just like sinners that has never been saved are gathered up as trash and are burned. The ones that are taken away from the vine are taken away as trash and are burned the same as sinners as trash.


Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

this fire sure means hell.


But I see how you thing that that fire dose not mean hell because if it did and you can not backslide the it would mean that some Christians would go to hell.

I think we both agree that Christians do not go to hell, but how do you explain the parable of the talents.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

jpbg,

The Matthew 7 verses you posted are talking about false prophets who aren't saved. You can't just cherry pick verses that seem to back up your theology. YOU NEED TO SEE THE PROPER CONTEXT!!!!

I cannot continue this conversation if you keep doing this.

We are going around in circles.

RickD wrote:

jpbg,

The Matthew 7 verses you posted are talking about false prophets who aren't saved. You can't just cherry pick verses that seem to back up your theology. YOU NEED TO SEE THE PROPER CONTEXT!!!!

I cannot continue this conversation if you keep doing this.

We are going around in circles.

I know Y'all do not think that was talking about everyone but just false prophets. I was meaning it in the way you took it. I should of been more clear, but I guess I didn't type what I meant by those verses clear enough. You said that the fire in john wasn't talking about people going to hell and, I was just showing where trees being cut down and burned in Matthew was talking about hell, and that fire was very similar to the fire in John. So that leads me to believe the fire in John was meaning hell also.

One other thing about that just wondering. So say a Christian not some one that thinks they are a Christina but a real Christian for some reason or another maybe he gets mad at God, but for some reason he starts teaching false doctrine. Then while he is teach false doctrine he dies. Does he go to heaven because he was saved or does he go to hell because he is a false prophet.

I do not think I have asked that yet just wondering.

I wrote:
How do you explain verse 6

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

it sounds like to me here that if you do not abide in Jesus then you are thrown into hell. So if that is true then all Christians abide in Christ.





RickD wrote:

Of course that sounds like that to you, because you are letting your theology interpret the verses. Instead of letting the verses, in their proper context, interpret themselves. Only by reading into the verse would you think it's talking about hell. It doesn't even mention hell. Fire doesn't always mean hell.

Fire is used throughout scripture to symbolize judgement of believers and non-believers. So maybe the fire symbolizes the judgement of believers(judgement pertaining to rewards). Or maybe the mention of fire is incidental, since vinedressers burned the branches they cut off during pruning.

The point of the story, is that Jesus encouraged his disciples to abide in him, so they would bear fruit.

Saying it means loss of salvation goes against John's writing that salvation is by grace, through faith alone.

Semper fidelis (always faithful). That is what God is. He will always remain true to what He promises. Count on it.



I am not saying that I am saved by anything other then faith. What I am saying is that I know that I am saved by my works.

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


according to the Hebrew and Greek dictionary the word G3129; a learner, that is, pupil: - disciple.

all Christians are suppose to be leaners of Jesus Christ

Christians are not all Apostles, but all Christians are disciple.


I see why you have to say that, but I do not agree with it. I do not think any thing is in the bible incidentally. I think that just like sinners that has never been saved are gathered up as trash and are burned. The ones that are taken away from the vine are taken away as trash and are burned the same as sinners as trash.


Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

this fire sure means hell I'm not referring to people going to hell I'm referring to the meant of fire in this passage.


But I see how you thing that that fire dose not mean hell because if it did and you can not backslide the it would mean that some Christians would go to hell.

I think we both agree that Christians do not go to hell, but how do you explain the parable of the talents.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jpbg,

It is clear that you believe that believers can lose salvation. And I believe they cannot. It is pointless to discuss this any further.

But I will respond to your question about the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. Again, at the risk of beating a dead horse, CONTEXT IS KEY. The parable of the talents, as well as the parable of the 10 virgins, is about Jews during the tribulation. It's not about believers during the church age.

All I ask is that you read the bible for what it says, without reading your theology into it. We all do it sometimes. I'm guilty of it as well.

And please make sure you're not just googling verses that back up your theology. If you do come upon verses that seem to back your theology, please read the chapter in its proper context. Like who was the original audience of the story.

The reason why I seem to push osas so much, is not just because I believe it's biblical. It also will feel like a huge weight has been lifted off your shoulders, when you rest on God's promise that He will keep you secure. Instead of feeling like you have to perform up to some impossible level of being good, in order to keep salvation.

And not to mention that if you have trusted Christ for salvation, and if osas is correct, it doesn't really matter if you believe osas is true or not. Because if it's true, and you have trusted Christ for salvation, you are eternally secure in Christ, whether you believe it or not.

jpbg33 wrote:

1over137 wrote:
Those who are disciplined, were they abiding in Christ? Why they were reproved?

Hebrews 12:5-6 ESV
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives

I believe that is talking about people who have sinned unwillfully God allows the consequences of there sin to come on them. To show them that they are wrong and why He can't allow us to live that way, and to give us a chance to repent before he has to remove us from the vine. That is his mercy.


I am not trying to say NO YOU ARE WRONG but I am trying to see where these believes come from and y'alls opinion on where y'all think I am getting it wrong.
I do not think I am getting it wrong, but I would like to understand y'alls point of view better.

What in your opinion is the difference between willful and unwillful sin?

1over137 wrote:
Those who are disciplined, were they abiding in Christ? Why they were reproved?

Hebrews 12:5-6 ESV
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives

I wrote
I believe that is talking about people who have sinned unwillfully God allows the consequences of there sin to come on them. To show them that they are wrong and why He can't allow us to live that way, and to give us a chance to repent before he has to remove us from the vine. That is his mercy.


I am not trying to say NO YOU ARE WRONG but I am trying to see where these believes come from and y'alls opinion on where y'all think I am getting it wrong.
I do not think I am getting it wrong, but I would like to understand y'alls point of view better.

1over137 wrote:
What in your opinion is the difference between willful and unwillful sin?

I believe that an unwillful sin is a sin committed out of ignorance or sin that you fell into because you are not walking after the Spirit and get overwhelmed by this world, but I believe that a willful sin is a sin that you do when you are not walking after the Spirit and you sin because you wont to or you fill you can, and unwillful sin that you commit will become willful sin if when God has reproved you of it and you choose you not repent.


RickD

What about the parable of the 10 virgins?

jpbg wrote:
What about the parable of the 10 virgins?

What about it?

I think it's about ten Jewish disciples in the tribulation who are awaiting the return of the King.

RickD wrote:
What about it?

I think it's about ten Jewish disciples in the tribulation who are awaiting the return of the King.

I'm not trying to say you are wrong just trying to understand what you are saying. I may write something later if I do not agree, but I am not clear on what you are saying here. Are you saying that disciples can backslid or are you saying that all disciples are not saved or are you saying that you can not get saved in the but you can be a disciple in the tribulation and you believe post trib or pre trib.