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Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:51 am
by RickD
jpbg wrote:
I will give you this you are the only one who has held true to what you are saying but still with the true definition of the word "unbeliever" the person you are talking about would be an unbeliever when they die, to stay true to osas you must say that if he truly does not believe when he dies then that is because he really didn't believe before he seem to stop believing because not all that say they believe really believe.
:swhat:
Again, you show you have no idea what osas is, and you have no idea what you're talking about.
jpbg wrote:
The bible is clear that no unbeliever who dies on earth will go heave.
After I read your posts, I feel like I have to go heave.
:xxpuke:

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:02 am
by Philip
Jpbg: Philip what y'all are over looking is that in language there are statements that can be taken deferent ways depending on the way you read it, and then there are statements that can only mean one thing.

That verse could mean A. That God would run them into the ground getting what he wonted from them whether they wonted to do Gods will or not or B. That he had confidence in the fact that God would continue His work in them to the end because he felt that they were strong Christians that would not give up.
The problem you have with taking Paul's statement in your way is A) he plainly states WHY he has a confidence in their salvation and B) his ONLY basis for that confidence is that the Lord Who began the work would COMPLETE it! Period. There's no effort of man that one can possibly read into that statement.
Jpbg: RickD I believe that one who does not believe in Jesus as there savior is an unbeliever and that is as far as the bible defines them which leads me to believe that is enough.
Of course! A believer is always defined in Scripture as one who has FAITH in Jesus (or pre-Christ birth into the world, in the promises of God - of Whom Christ is a part - but of Whom was yet to come, ) - and not mere knowledge, like that of the Devil, Judas, the chattering crowds of Jerusalem.

Jpbg, of all you have argued, you have not been able to substantiate that some who merely have KNOWLEDGE of Christ, who even for awhile (and maybe even a LONG while) APPEAR to talk the talk, take part in Christian ACTIVITIES, claim to be a BEliever, have actually ever had a true, committed/submitted faith in Jesus. There is an enormous difference. These are those that God says He will one day say, "I never knew you." The Holy Spirit never resided in these people. So all you saw that made them APPEAR to be Christians would be on the OUTSIDE.

Again, you did not address my question about God intimately knowing hearts and minds now AND in the FUTURE. Does God TEMPORARILY save - and WHY, knowing people are ultimately going to reject Him? That presents and enormous problem with what you are asserting. The question is: Did a person who APPEARS to have embraced Christ EVER truly have FAITH? As well, YOU apply a addition to what Scripture teaches prolifically, that faith in Christ is the ONLY way to salvation. But you are saying it requires Jesus PLUS one's ability to persevere to the end. So you've added a human beings effort to their salvation. And yet, you should know that NO effort of man has one thing to do with one being saved, OTHER THAN, RECEIVING a free, unearnable gift - HOW - through FAITH!

Notice Romans 10:9: "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you WILL be saved. Jpbg, it doesn't say that a person doing/having faith in what this says is necessary has a TEMPORARY effect - it doesn't say they ARE saved (in the moment), but, to echo Paul's confidence we discussed, it states they "WILL" be saved. Also, as for the qualifier of a TRUE believer: "AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you. There is mere intellectual belief, and a saving belief of the heart. Different things, with vastly different end results.

Funny how in Scripture, all of this back and forth Jpbg insists is possible (some are saved, later they aren't, perhaps later they will be again) - this is completely absent, without even ONE clear statement that such an assertion is true. That reveals you are reading into words what is not clearly stated, and that what IS clearly stated, per the Scriptures I've discussed, are the definitive truths of the matter.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:38 pm
by jpbg33
Philp you know you can get both A. and B. meaning that I presented out of that verse it just depends on how you believe. But there are verses you have to over look if you believe the A. MEANING and that makes that meaning wrong. The true meaning goes with the whole bible. Not just puts of the bible.

So what RickD I misspell a word we all know what I meant

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:44 pm
by jpbg33
RickD if I do not know what I am talking about then explain to me are unbelievers who die going to heaven. I know where they are going. Apparently you do not. A unbeliever is someone who does not believe in Jesus. everyone but you seems to know that, and you are clamming that I do not know what I am talking about.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:26 pm
by RickD
jpbg33 wrote:RickD if I do not know what I am talking about then explain to me are unbelievers who die going to heaven. I know where they are going. Apparently you do not. A unbeliever is someone who does not believe in Jesus. everyone but you seems to know that, and you are clamming that I do not know what I am talking about.
Here's me, clamming that you don't know what you're talking about.
Image

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:20 pm
by jpbg33
You are the only one that hasn't answered yet. must mean you do not have an answer and it wasn't even a hard question. The question is where do unbelievers go when they die.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:55 pm
by RickD
jpbg33 wrote:You are the only one that hasn't answered yet. must mean you do not have an answer and it wasn't even a hard question. The question is where do unbelievers go when they die.
They go clamming with Jacob's bosom, in Parricide.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:30 pm
by Kurieuo
jpbg33 wrote:I believe that even though all will believe not all will go to heaven. I believe that the difference in the ones that go to heaven and the ones that go to hell is when they believe. I believe that in the bible where it says every knee shaw bow and every tongues shaw confesses it is talking about unbelievers believing ones they face the judgement seat of God but that is to lat and if that is where someone stars believing that is to lat and they will still end up in hell even though at that point they believe.

I believe that the difference in the two is "true believer" is one who believes in Jesus as there savoir and one that is just a "believer" is one who just believes Jesus is real and who he says he is.
Is it good enough with you that we agree with John 3:16:
  • God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Indeed, we agree all will believe in God. To add further those without Christ here and now resist and fear God, and not everyone believes in Christ as we understand belief. Not even all self-identifying Christians truly believe in Christ as I see matters.

Here I say let God be judge and not us. With cases where "former" Christians for whatever reason rebelled against God and became "unbelievers"... it could be such are going through a very dark time, but even unbeknown to themselves they deep inside their heart still harvest a buried belief in Christ that is simply deeply wounded and afflicted. Let God be judge and we simply reach out in love and grace to point people in the right direction.

John 3:16 clearly says those who believe in Christ are saved. I think we can agree there, but I also suspect you intend something perhaps more legalistic and judgmental in flavour, and while an important component to truly understand the Gospel -- that all have sinned and fall short of God and into judgement -- the more positive message Christ pursued was that God doesn't want judgement but reconciliation at any cost.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:03 pm
by crochet1949
Yes, most Definitely our Reconciliation to Himself. That's why He Provided us with the Cross / Salvation made possible.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:28 pm
by abelcainsbrother

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:43 am
by jpbg33
So RickD do you agree with this point. I know that no unbeliever is going to heaven it says so in the bible.

Kurieuo
Here I say let God be judge and not us. With cases where "former" Christians for whatever reason rebelled against God and became "unbelievers"... it could be such are going through a very dark time, but even unbeknown to themselves they deep inside their heart still harvest a buried belief in Christ that is simply deeply wounded and afflicted. Let God be judge and we simply reach out in love and grace to point people in the right direction

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:49 am
by jpbg33
Every one but RickD seem to agree that if someone dies an unbeliever then they will end up in hell. Why do we believe that? Because that is what the bible says. So I guess RickD really doesn't believe the bible is true.

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Every one but RickD believes that to be true. So I wonder who is right and who is wrong.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:42 am
by jpbg33
So I guess RickD is just going to admit that he is wrong by not answering. So I will step to the next part of the argument without him. By not awnsering that is proof he knows he has been beat, but really this is not suppost to be about who beat who in the debate, but about what is right. I have answered questions without fell because it is not about what I think or what you think but it is about what is right. If a question proves I am wrong then I am man enough to admit to it and move on. I guess everyone is not that way.

Everyone here including RickD he just doesn't wont to admit it, believes that if you die a unbeliever you will end up in hell. Why is this important to know? It is because Jesus said you can believe and then later stop believing. So if you can believe and stop believing then osas can not be true. Jesus did not say that if you believe then stop believing that you really still believe way down deep in your heart you just do not realize it at that time, but He said that there will be some that believe but later on in life because of the temptation stop believing.



Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

So according to Jesus if you believe then later stop believing later when in temptation then you are no longer a believer.

we know Jesus is talking about believers becoming unbelievers because he said they believe for a while so there was a time maybe short maybe long that they were believers but when fasted with temptation they according to Jesus became unbeliever once again.

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

the wages of sin is death.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:54 am
by AreEl
RickD wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:You are the only one that hasn't answered yet. must mean you do not have an answer and it wasn't even a hard question. The question is where do unbelievers go when they die.
They go clamming with Jacob's bosom, in Parricide.
This is true. Godly unbeleevers hoove done good things on Earth go to Parricide when their dead. but they only stay in Parricide untill their reincarnated. God is a god of forgivniss and he gives godly unbeleevers a seckind chance. God doesint want to see godly unbeleevers go to Hull.

Re: Miraculous healings today

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:18 am
by RickD
AreEl wrote:
RickD wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:You are the only one that hasn't answered yet. must mean you do not have an answer and it wasn't even a hard question. The question is where do unbelievers go when they die.
They go clamming with Jacob's bosom, in Parricide.
This is true. Godly unbeleevers hoove done good things on Earth go to Parricide when their dead. but they only stay in Parricide untill their reincarnated. God is a god of forgivniss and he gives godly unbeleevers a seckind chance. God doesint want to see godly unbeleevers go to Hull.
:pound: