Hi B.W, if you're still reading.
Thank you very much for the book, I've read it once and went back to read over sections many times.
I've been mulling over this for a while. I'm beginning to see the futility in claiming that morality is subjective. I'm thinking I adopted this response as a reaction to the idea that morality is objective. As a good friend pointed out the disbelief in the objective will lead to doubt in the subjective. It's tough to believe in one and not the other. When objectivity and subjectivity become the opinion of the subject things become blurry.
Knots: When something is made into a knot and unexpectedly stops being a knot, in hindsight it may be said to have been a bad knot. Knots which cease to be knots can be referred to as bad knots? Or perhaps, as I have suggested, knots which don't live up to their expectations can be said to be bad knots, but that involves opinions on expected performance, not absolutes.
So the knot makers can tie knots wrongly??? How can that be????
I don't believe I said that. Knot makers may produce knots which do not live up to the the expectations of themselves or that of others.
In fact, the Christian messages can be summed up as: learning how to be free from one sin one day at a time - Discovering the Goodness of God as a reality not a matter of grey dullness.
I feel that is due to sin being a cornerstone of the Abrahamic faiths. Most of the world's religions could be explained in learning to become free one day at a time. I may be a little corny but I always liked Kris Kristofferson's angle on freedom - just another word for nothing left to lose. In my experience as I grow older my freedoms become more limited and I have much more to lose, yet my joy in life increases.
What inside you sets a compass marker that tells you that premeditated murder is wrong — what is it inside you that stops you from doing this act?
I don't think I do have a compass that tells me it is wrong. I'm not keen on it but in context premeditated murder may be acceptable. Things like the death penalty, abortion, assassination of dictators or war all include premeditated murder to me and I can't say that my moral compass always tells me it is wrong. I'm not sure it's something inside me that stops me from doing this act but more that things outside me have never put me in the position of having to. If I need to murder someone to save the lives of my family one day my moral compass may allow it.
Again the knot maker — simply tied the knot wrongly. As matter of fact, how can you assign value to your love if values do not exist? ...... Values also guide us and teach us what makes values right or wrong…Do you take responsibility for what you value if values do not really exist?
Yes, I take responsibility for what I value if value, or responsibility, does not objectively exist. Values teach me that everyone has different values.
If there are no rights or wrongs, then why do you find some of Mother Theresa and Ghandi's morals wrong? What makes them wrong — questionable - if all morals are merely subjective?
I didn't say they were wrong. If morals are not objective, or we don't have reliable access to objective morality, then all morals are questionable. I question some more than others.
Do trees reproduce after their own kind? How do they do that? By their fruit, whether it be kernel, pine cone, nut, flower, apple, etc… A Tree is known by its fruit and its fruit can be either bad or good as well
Yes, trees reproduce by various means. A tree is known by more than its fruit, as I am known beyond my daughter. You may call the produce of a tree either good or bad but that does not make it so.
Question: Does an apple tree produce oranges?
Not to my knowledge
There are absolutes even in nature! Yet, it take the brilliance of a human being to deny the empirical evidences of absolutes in nature and mathematics.
Labeling something an apple tree and defining an orange, then saying one does not flow from the other does give an absolute. It brings convenience and ease of communication based upon agreement.
Do you really take responsibility for denying such absolutes? What of the airport control tower staff if they denied responsibility for providing absolute flight paths for in and outbound flights?
Absolute flight paths would require omniscience, I want relative flight paths, complete with delays and diversions which allow for the unexpected.
Question: Does a pear tree produce olives?
Not to my knowledge.
Then how can you not say that food that is food poisoned is bad for you if all is only grey?
Some things are obvious — did you wife give birth to your daughter or a tree? Things are obviously this or that.
Bad food poisons — nothing grey about this except maybe the moldy patches on the spinach or meat…
Poison is a matter of dosage, not an inherent quality.
Paracelsus, the father of toxicology, once wrote: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison."
How do you define which of these are wrong? Have them done unto you or your family, or your country. Was 911 wrong? Islam's support of honor killings — wrong?
I don't think things have to be done to myself, my family or my country for me to form an opinion on them. I may form a stronger opinion the closer it relates to myself but I can relate to many things further from home and form an opinion. As for 9/11 and honour killings, I've seen the pain they cause and think we should try to understand the causes and look for ways to resolve these issues - I'm not convinced war or hated of Islam is the way forward but this seems to be what is happening.
Why does it seek to cure physical disease if there are no rights or wrongs? However, the disease I spoke about in my example was the disease of sin. Only Christ Jesus offers the cure for this. All others ways offer only ointments and temporary suaves that leaves the infection inside. This infection is our own moral subjective relativity… which creates the issues of sin...
Why do we need objective right and wrong to want to help those suffering? I do agree that Jesus offers the cure for sin but I'm not convinced that sin exists. Once one accepts the issue of sin the rest follows, I'm stuck at the first hurdle. Once one accepts that attachment is the cause of suffering the path of the Buddha may be only cure - you have to first accept the premise before you can convince yourself of the need for a cure.
Things like tea, music, or wine do not involve morality. Comparing theses as examples to morality is in itself a contradiction.
They do involve morality. Hardcore Gangsta rap, or evangelical Christian rock? Fairtrade organic tea or tea which is the product of child labour and vast profit margins? A nice Bordeaux over dinner or drinking wine all day everyday?
Issues of Morality have nothing to do with tea — unless it has been poisoned…
Again, poison is a matter of dosage.
does a peach tree produce cabbage? True or false?
Again, not to my knowledge. If someone were to get a peach tree to produce a cabbage would you renounce all faith in objective truth?
If relationship is, as you state, what matters to you — then the objective reality of that relationship proves that relationships are possible and if possible, then one with God is also possible through Jesus Christ. Why delay?
A relationship with Brahman via one of the avatars of Vishnu is then also possible, please don't delay in forming this.
If there were no people and our solar system existed, how many objects would be between the earth and the sun?
What counts as an object? space junk? atoms? Do we run with the current idea of things over a certain size? If there are no people there is no one to count, no one to ask and no one to answer. No question and no answer. If there is no one around there is no question and no answer. Is there an objective line which marks the end of the earth and the start of the sun - what of a solar flare that impacts the earth, or on a more everyday note the energy which the earth receives from the sun.
Why does science have scientist?
Without scientists there would be no science. Without Islam there would be no Muslims, without artists there would be no art.
Science doesn't have scientists, science is scientists.
Why does Christianity have Christians?
We human beings exist and can count and label things — and through such we discover…objective reality.
I would argue that human beings can count and label things and through this counting and labeling we count and label, no more, no less.
If objects can be named and labeled then objective reality exist and if objective reality exists then objective morality exist as well helping one to discover what is dangerous and what is not and the whys things are wrong or right…preparing one for an eternal design…
That's quite a leap. As you know I'd dispute that there are objects, although for convenience I play along. But to then go from objects existing, which I think is shaky ground, to say that objective morality exists is quite a leap. There are x amount of objects between two points, therefore the universal law of karma exits - it just seems odd to me.
There are different ways of looking at things but for someone to take their view and elevate it to the level of objective truth is, to me, man attempting to become God.
