"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
B. W. Lemme ask you a question. Do you believe it is a sin for a believer to eat bacon?B. W. wrote:We must remember, doing is okay if the doing is not a show of one-up-man-ship to prove who loves God best.
Kureiuo stated a truth here we need to heed: They (actions) come out of a love that already exist...
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Homosexual love is still a type of love (venus), even if it is misdirected.Gman wrote:Again... If you say that all a person has to do is "love" and that somehow fills all the commandments. Fine.. Next question is what type of "love" are we talking about here? How about homosexual love? Christ never taught against that... Is that now somehow ok to do? You talk about caring, what if my version of love somehow is biased? What are we basing that bias on? Our own morals? You see, loving needs direction, purpose and definition otherwise we are casting it to the wind... Therefore we can use the Torah for that direction and purpose.. It's really not that hard.PaulSacramento wrote:Which is great but the fact is that unless you take ALL of the Torah and observe it as an orthodox Jew would, then you are still "picking and choosing" which parts to follow and how.Gman wrote:No one is denying that love is the ultimate goal of G-d's commandments. In fact you will find that feeding and caring for the poor or stranger is actually programed into the Torah.. The problem however is writing off huge sections of the Bible to a "love" that is not clearly defied. And many of those commandments also have to do with a process known as UNIFICATION in the body of Christ. Otherwise we will throw our own guidelines into it. As an example let's take the sabbath.. Bob wants the sabbath to be on Sunday because he have a golf game on Saturday. Susie doesn't want the sabbath to be on Saturday or Sunday because she has yoga class on those days. Their younger son Eric, has soccer practice on Saturday and he wants the Sabbath to be on Tuesday...PaulSacramento wrote: Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked ( those in need of clothes), care for the ill, care for those in prison, care for strangers in need of shelter.
Also note that those that are judged to be unrighteous defend themselves by saying that they didn't know that that it was Christ that they were ignoring.
Therefore as we can see this brings a process known as CONFUSION to the Church... We do not want to bring confusion to G-d, we want to bring unity to G-d and to the body... If we all can't agree on the time for fellowship and start making up our own rules, this brings division. In other words, we will have to sacrifice our time to bring unity to the body of Christ..
Ok.. So if love isn't an action, I can lay on the ground dead as a tree stump, profess I love somebody and that would be justified as true love? Do you honestly think that would work in a marriage situation? I mean our women have suffered enough with our man cave TV sets and sports and such, but living with a tree stump in my opinion would be taking death in marriage to a whole new level. But hey, there are actually people that live this way too, so who I'm I to judge..Kurieuo wrote:If my child can love me as their father, then I'm sure I can love God as my Father.
Love is not an action or actions. Actions are not love. Actions demonstrate the love that is. Even if loving actions are misdirected, they come out of a love that exists.
Actually the act of homosexuality was never explicitly mentioned by Christ, although you could argue that Christ alluded to it. To get the depth of sexual immorality you would need a further understanding of Torah.Kurieuo wrote: Homosexual love is still a type of love (venus), even if it is misdirected.
Christ spoke against anything that would compromise God's intended design from the beginning (Matthew 19:8), as anything other than one man and one woman cleaving together (Matthew 19:3-7).
Of course we need definitions to what love is... Otherwise we will fill in the blanks with our own definitions. Some say it's ok to rob a bank if you love someone, others don't..Kurieuo wrote:"Loving needs direction"? This is different to a "pure love".
Change us to what? The Holy Spirit told the apostle Paul that we need to purge ourselves from all evil desires of our hearts. Was the Holy Spirit wrong for saying this if pure love was in him already?Kurieuo wrote:One can act loving without love, which entails just doing what appears to be loving actions. One can act loving towards another, but have some ulteria motive.
However, one cannot be loving without love. Being loving requires that a pure love first exists. Paul says those who refrain from eating meat do so out of love for God; those who eat meat also do so out of love for God with thanksgiving. The rightness or wrongness of the action had not bearing on the person's love. Each were being "loving" in their love for God. And THAT is what matters to God.
If one is trying to love through actions, then this misunderstands what "love" is. One can't love through actions, rather loving actions ("being loving") is an outworking of one's existing love. And if there is something detrimentally wrong with our loving behaviour, than I have every confidence that the Holy Spirit will guide and change us.
No one is denying grace between the father and the son, so if you hold your kid against his will in the direction he desires for his life and he doesn't want to heed your corrections, then how is that considered unloving if you let him do his own thing?Kurieuo wrote:Sometimes my son just whacks me because he's being playful. He loves me and wants me to play with him. But sometimes it's at the most unexpected and inconvenient times that it is annoying. His actions are by no means loving, but yet he does it out of love for his Daddy which he is desiring the attention of. Yet, besides being annoyed by his actions at times, I don't tell tell him you're loving me wrong. It doesn't even come into my mind that he's being unloving, rather the opposite. He really must love me because he's doing everything he can to get my attention. Yet, if his actions are at an inappropriate time, I'll correct him.
If I can do that for my own children, then why can't God His?
The Holy Spirit wrote down our entire Bible... All of it.. The Holy Spirit is also IN us... So why would we be opposed to the Bible for wisdom and instruction since it is all the work of the Holy Spirit anyway?? I just don't get it..RickD wrote:
But seriously, you said a believer can't love without knowing how to love by following the OT laws. I'm saying that a believer can know how to love his neighbor, because a believer has God inside him. I'm not saying that since a believer has the HS, then he shouldn't read the bible anymore.
And I'm certainly not saying that being saved is a license to sin.
Gman wrote:
The Holy Spirit is guiding and teaching us against what? Emotions?
Rick.. What is the Holy Spirit guiding us in? Emotional consequences or the Bible, G-d's Holy words?RickD wrote:G, is this a real question? I don't understand your point here.
Sure like I said before, you don't have to do anything. Just make up your own rules and call it love.. Again, it's what we all do anyway..RickD wrote: Who said we are commanded not to follow God's commandments?
G, you have the freedom as a believer to observe the sabbath if you choose to. But remember that other believers also have the freedom to choose not to follow the Sabbath.
Just because you can't see the heart of someone, doesn't mean God can't.Gman wrote:Ok.. So if love isn't an action, I can lay on the ground dead as a tree stump, profess I love somebody and that would be justified as true love? Do you honestly think that would work in a marriage situation? I mean our women have suffered enough with our man cave TV sets and sports and such, but living with a tree stump in my opinion would be taking death in marriage to a whole new level. But hey, there are actually people that live this way too, so who I'm I to judge..Kurieuo wrote:If my child can love me as their father, then I'm sure I can love God as my Father.
Love is not an action or actions. Actions are not love. Actions demonstrate the love that is. Even if loving actions are misdirected, they come out of a love that exists.
What kind of Love? I think you mean how is loved expressed?Gman wrote:Again... If you say that all a person has to do is "love" and that somehow fills all the commandments. Fine.. Next question is what type of "love" are we talking about here? How about homosexual love? Christ never taught against that... Is that now somehow ok to do? You talk about caring, what if my version of love somehow is biased? What are we basing that bias on? Our own morals? You see, loving needs direction, purpose and definition otherwise we are casting it to the wind... Therefore we can use the Torah for that direction and purpose.. It's really not that hard.PaulSacramento wrote:Which is great but the fact is that unless you take ALL of the Torah and observe it as an orthodox Jew would, then you are still "picking and choosing" which parts to follow and how.Gman wrote:No one is denying that love is the ultimate goal of G-d's commandments. In fact you will find that feeding and caring for the poor or stranger is actually programed into the Torah.. The problem however is writing off huge sections of the Bible to a "love" that is not clearly defied. And many of those commandments also have to do with a process known as UNIFICATION in the body of Christ. Otherwise we will throw our own guidelines into it. As an example let's take the sabbath.. Bob wants the sabbath to be on Sunday because he have a golf game on Saturday. Susie doesn't want the sabbath to be on Saturday or Sunday because she has yoga class on those days. Their younger son Eric, has soccer practice on Saturday and he wants the Sabbath to be on Tuesday...PaulSacramento wrote: Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked ( those in need of clothes), care for the ill, care for those in prison, care for strangers in need of shelter.
Also note that those that are judged to be unrighteous defend themselves by saying that they didn't know that that it was Christ that they were ignoring.
Therefore as we can see this brings a process known as CONFUSION to the Church... We do not want to bring confusion to G-d, we want to bring unity to G-d and to the body... If we all can't agree on the time for fellowship and start making up our own rules, this brings division. In other words, we will have to sacrifice our time to bring unity to the body of Christ..
No - if that is the case - I am in trouble - a world without BLT sandwiches and pulled pork BBQ just imagine!RickD wrote:B. W. Lemme ask you a question. Do you believe it is a sin for a believer to eat bacon?B. W. wrote:We must remember, doing is okay if the doing is not a show of one-up-man-ship to prove who loves God best.
Kureiuo stated a truth here we need to heed: They (actions) come out of a love that already exist...
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But B. W. God commanded "US'' to not eat swine, right? So, you are sinning by going against God's command to US, RIGHT?B. W. wrote:No - if that is the case - I am in trouble - a world without BLT sandwiches and pulled pork BBQ just imagine!RickD wrote:B. W. Lemme ask you a question. Do you believe it is a sin for a believer to eat bacon?B. W. wrote:We must remember, doing is okay if the doing is not a show of one-up-man-ship to prove who loves God best.
Kureiuo stated a truth here we need to heed: They (actions) come out of a love that already exist...
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I edited last post a bit...RickD wrote:But B. W. God commanded "US'' to not eat swine, right? So, you are sinning by going against God's command to US, RIGHT?B. W. wrote:No - if that is the case - I am in trouble - a world without BLT sandwiches and pulled pork BBQ just imagine!RickD wrote:B. W. Lemme ask you a question. Do you believe it is a sin for a believer to eat bacon?B. W. wrote:We must remember, doing is okay if the doing is not a show of one-up-man-ship to prove who loves God best.
Kureiuo stated a truth here we need to heed: They (actions) come out of a love that already exist...
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It does help me B. W. , as much as it reiterates what I've been trying to say all along. Summed up beautifully with what you wrote here:B. W. wrote:I edited last post a bit...RickD wrote:But B. W. God commanded "US'' to not eat swine, right? So, you are sinning by going against God's command to US, RIGHT?B. W. wrote:No - if that is the case - I am in trouble - a world without BLT sandwiches and pulled pork BBQ just imagine!RickD wrote:B. W. Lemme ask you a question. Do you believe it is a sin for a believer to eat bacon?B. W. wrote:We must remember, doing is okay if the doing is not a show of one-up-man-ship to prove who loves God best.
Kureiuo stated a truth here we need to heed: They (actions) come out of a love that already exist...
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Love expresses itself and God's love to us - expressed itself to us thru Jesus Christ work on the Cross and Resurrection.
We Love God because he first loved us (1 John 4:19c) - not the other way around.
So often we turn that statement around to read -- I Love God because I first loved God...
I do not think Gman is saying that at all. Nor are you and others either.
Recall that Abram was a gentile and so was Adam and Eve, from God, God choosing to make his own nation of folk from amongst all nations. There was also a necessity for a change in the law because by the law came the knowledge of sin. Love teaches and instructs. A new law, by a new covenant, was foretold to come in which the law of God would be written within a new heart.
This love is not defined merely as only unconditional, after all, that does not define anything – grants no true lasting understanding at all. God’s love is deeper than a mere unconditional condition. Take the composite of the old Hebrew word for love and old Greek word Agape and you’ll discover what love is, how God loves, that causes us to love him because he loved first.
In the KJV translation 1 Co 13 uses the word Charity to translate agape. Back in 1611, Charity had a fuller, deeper meaning than merely giving alms or such but rather was the expression of living Cherishing, Nurturing, Training, Edifying, Chastening, Building up – a new Character within a person.
How? By a living Cherishing, Nurturing, Training, Edifying, Chastening, Building up kind of Love that is patient, is kind and is not jealous; does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; does not seek its own, is not easily provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, in order to build a new identity (character) within a person. Note - 1Co 13:4-7 and Romans 8:29, Eph 4:24. Eph 5:1-7…
That is how God acts towards us and we are likewise to learn to express that to fellow believers in Christ and what it means to actually love one another as Christ so loved us.
For many, this expression is too difficult, so they hide behind sentimentally of a flower smelling ahhh kind of love and not the kind that changes diapers and transforms one’s character out of darkness into God’s marvelous light.
It is far eiaser to keep on doing a do-do list to show God how much one love's God but that misses the point…
We Love God because he first loved us, 1 John 4:19c
As El Shaddai (the Nurturing One) who is Our Banner, who rears us – The one who is our Shepherd is the one’s love we are to learn to dispense (express) – how?
Answer: by that living Cherishing, Nurturing, Training, Edifying, Chastening, Building up kind of Love that is patient, kind and not jealous; does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; does not seek its own, is not easily provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, in order to build a new identity (character) within a person.
1 John 4:19, 20, 21 We love Him because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. NKJV
So likewise our love for God is express to God – How?
Answer: by Cherishing, Nurturing, Training, Edifying , Building a relationship towards God that is patient, kind, not jealous; does not brag - is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly to or toward God; does not seek one’s own ways/terms with God, not easily provoked by God’s Chastening, does not take into account a wrong suffered (used to train us and change us), does not rejoice in unrighteousness acts we do, but rejoices with the truth to be changed into a new person so that our relationship with God certainly can bear all things, believe all things of His, hopes all things, endures all things, in order to build a relationship with the Lord of Glory.
This cannot come by deeds of following written codes – it comes by a living relationship that certainly expresses itself many diverse ways. To whom who has, more will be given and what one think he has, taken away…
This is rather a long answer to you Rick but hope it helps…
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This cannot come by deeds of following written codes – it comes by a living relationship that certainly expresses itself many diverse ways.
B. W. wrote:
I also see as i read this that G and Rick are saying the same things but not in the same way.
I'm not sure K.. What do you think? If love is only found in mere words and not backed up by any action or deeds.. Would you really want to live in this kind of world? Are you insinuating that we could live in love in a virtual world? I don't know about you, but a talking animated loony charter barking the words of "I love you" to me 50 million times a day would drive me crazy.Kurieuo wrote: Just because you can't see the heart of someone, doesn't mean God can't.
Does God need corroborating evidence to know whether or not someone loves Him?
I have no idea where you are going with this, but our Bibles also talks about love using the right motives.. So you could actually "love" all you want... However, if the motive is wrong, then that love would be wrong as well..PaulSacramento wrote:
What kind of Love? I think you mean how is loved expressed?
Look back at Matthew 25 and the parable of sheep and goats, that kind of love.
Look at James and the caring of widows and orphans and to not gossip, that kind of love.
Look at John and Christ saying that no greater love exists than a man to give his life for his brother.
That type of love.
If one chooses to base his/her expression of love on by what is written in the Torah, I can respect and accept that.
If one chooses to base his/her expression of love by what was written in the NT, by the apostles, I can respect and accept that.
We need to remember that, as Jeremiah said, the law has been altered by the lying pen of the scribes:
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
Has made it into a lie.
We must remember that, as Ezekiel said, some laws were made not good on purpose:
Ezekiel 20:23-26
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
23 Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands, 24 because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers. 25 I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the Lord.”’
We must dis concern what is right and wrong in the Torah and the bible, it falls on US by the guidance of the HS.
As were have been taught:
Test everything.
Ok.. Now you are just being cute..RickD wrote:G, you are making the argument that if God(the Holy Spirit) commanded something, then since God was doing the commanding, it must pertain to everyone. Let's take the commandment by God to Abraham. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Since that command came directly from God, should we heed that commandment, and sacrifice our first born sons? Abraham was blessed because by faith, Abraham obeyed God. So, will we be blessed if we obey God's command to sacrifice our sons?
Obviously we already know that Christ is the ultimate sacrifice..Actually the covenants given to Israel is not just of land... It's a people too... AND the covenant's made to Israel are also EVERLASTING covenants, 1 Chronicles 16:15-18, Psalm 105:9-11, Jeremiah 31:35-37... Which means Israel and the covenants will NEVER go away..RickD wrote:Since it's impossible for a believer in modern America to follow the sabbath command as it was laid out by God to Israel, you suggest we just try our best to follow the Sabbath how we can now in America.
Ok funny guy... Read Hebrews 9:23-28..RickD wrote:So with that rationale, we don't have to take our sons to a mountain in the region of Moriah. We can just amble on up to our local hill, and do it there. Remember, it was a command from God. You can't on one hand say that it was a command only for Abraham, and on the other hand say the OT law was given to everyone not just the OT nation of Israel. God's commands are God's commands. And who are we to brush them aside?
Surely you can see this Gman, can't you?