Evidence for God from Science

Bill McEnaney wrote:I'm not an expert on hell, but I have a thought or two about whether ancient people needed to figure things out on their own before Christ came. We Catholics believe in what some theologians call the Limbo of the Fathers. The Apostle's Creed, not the Nicene one, tells me that Our Lord "descended into hell." That hell can't be the one for the damned because they stay there forever. Since they stay there forever, Our Lord wouldn't go there to rescue anyone. He certainly wouldn't drop in to say "I told you so," partly because the damned already know why they're in it and that they're too proud to repent. In Chapter 8 of his Gospel, Saint Matthew writes about people who'll be in heaven with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob died before Our Blessed Lord came, and He would hardly blame them for not accepting God the Son who would come to earth after their deaths. Their couldn't get into heaven before He died. So they needed somewhere to wait to enter it. Maybe they they waited in the Limbo of the Fathers. (See Matthew 8:11)

Mmm, most would call it Abraham's bosom or Paradise.

CeT-To wrote:Mmm, most would call it Abraham's bosom or Paradise.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

CeT-To wrote:

Bill McEnaney wrote:I'm not an expert on hell, but I have a thought or two about whether ancient people needed to figure things out on their own before Christ came. We Catholics believe in what some theologians call the Limbo of the Fathers. The Apostle's Creed, not the Nicene one, tells me that Our Lord "descended into hell." That hell can't be the one for the damned because they stay there forever. Since they stay there forever, Our Lord wouldn't go there to rescue anyone. He certainly wouldn't drop in to say "I told you so," partly because the damned already know why they're in it and that they're too proud to repent. In Chapter 8 of his Gospel, Saint Matthew writes about people who'll be in heaven with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob died before Our Blessed Lord came, and He would hardly blame them for not accepting God the Son who would come to earth after their deaths. Their couldn't get into heaven before He died. So they needed somewhere to wait to enter it. Maybe they they waited in the Limbo of the Fathers. (See Matthew 8:11)

Mmm, most would call it Abraham's bosom or Paradise.

Then before Christ died, He redeemed Abraham? Catholics believe that Our Lord redeemed His Blessed Mother before she conceived Him because then she would be free from original sin. If she was free from it, her Son didn't inherit it from her. If He didn't inherit it from her, she didn't inherit it and neither did He.

Dr Shoe wrote:There is no such thing as a finite sin. You punch a grown man, that's bad. You punch a baby its much worse because he's so innocent. You punch God, he is absolutely infinitely innocent. That sin goes on infinitely. The only way to atone is to suffer for eternity or let God who is infinite pay infinitely on your behalf. Whew!

Remember the difference between a sin and how much it offends God. I can offend Him infinitely with a sin that takes only a second to commit. If I think an impure thought, I won't think it for infinitely long. at least not here on earth.

Bill M wrote:

she didn't inherit it and neither did He.

Bill, correct me if I'm wrong here, but if Mary didn't inherit original sin, then her parents had to be sinless, correct?

Bill McEnaney wrote:

Dr Shoe wrote:There is no such thing as a finite sin. You punch a grown man, that's bad. You punch a baby its much worse because he's so innocent. You punch God, he is absolutely infinitely innocent. That sin goes on infinitely. The only way to atone is to suffer for eternity or let God who is infinite pay infinitely on your behalf. Whew!

Remember the difference between a sin and how much it offends God. I can offend Him infinitely with a sin that takes only a second to commit. If think an impure thought, I won't think it for infinitely long. at least not here on earth.

So why is god Infinitely Innocent but not infinitely responsible? I personally think that if presented before a god after death most people would be surprised at who this god is. This god would reject people who think that for certain they have "won the game" and would accept some people based on criteria that are far above human ones. To put it in perspective, To Err is human and to forgive is divine. I see no way to comfortably believe that someone could possibly be damned for eternity because in my lifetime the one "theme" that seems to push me onwards is that there is always hope, people should never give up, never surrender and if they are making a effort to search for the truth then why hate them? I have no Idea what god want's, I could never understand the mind of god without understanding every single fibre or atom of the universe's structure. So i really find it incredibly crazy that there are people who claim that they know the mind of god when the level of their qualification seems to be incredibly inane.

However, I do like Crazy. The world would be a lot better place if everyone was more thoughtful and ready to believe some really "insane" or "rad" things. Like there always being hope perhaps. Or maybe, "communism, not a bad idea! Oh but those communists, oops look like they got it a bit wrong." Some things have a good aspect and a bad aspect even the things that seem really strange and appear to have no goodness at all. I would like to think that hope springs eternal and that death if it is just the beginning of a journey and not the end means that your fate is not sealed. However, lets not go into fate. I could talk a Camels head off talking about something like that, It seems to me that it really is a Fate/Free will Interplay, some things I must accept as they are no matter how much I would love to be in control.

Oh and err, thank the British for inventing the bible.(seriously the Brutish invented everything, its true)

RickD wrote:Bill M wrote:

she didn't inherit it and neither did He.

Bill, correct me if I'm wrong here, but if Mary didn't inherit original sin, then her parents had to be sinless, correct?

Not quite, Rick. Catholics believe that God protected Mary from original sin because He knew that she would be His Son's mother. God ensured that His Son to get the best mom He could get. Like you and me, she needed a redeemer. So God the Son redeemed her before He died. For Catholics, original sin is the absence of the blessedness we would have been born with if Adam and Eve kept the blessedness they forfeited when they fell.

BoniPastoris wrote:So why is god Infinitely Innocent but not infinitely responsible? I personally think that if presented before a god after death most people would be surprised at who this god is. This god would reject people who think that for certain they have "won the game" and would accept some people based on criteria that are far above human ones. To put it in perspective, To Err is human and to forgive is divine. I see no way to comfortably believe that someone could possibly be damned for eternity because in my lifetime the one "theme" that seems to push me onwards is that there is always hope, people should never give up, never surrender and if they are making a effort to search for the truth then why hate them? I have no Idea what god want's, I could never understand the mind of god without understanding every single fibre or atom of the universe's structure. So i really find it incredibly crazy that there are people who claim that they know the mind of god when the level of their qualification seems to be incredibly inane.

Catholics believe that in Romans 2, Saint Paul already answers part of Boni's post when that Apostle describes Natural Law Theory that you might call a God-given, innate knowledge about morality.

For there is no respect of persons with God. For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, who have not the law do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: Who shew the the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another (Romans 2:11-15 Douay-Rheims Version).

God will hold us responsible for what we know. The people Saint Paul writes about may not know in detail what God expects of them, but they can do the right thing when He helps them do it. They need to do their best with the graces He gives them. Innocent ignorance won't save me, but God won't blame me for it. Even if I can't help being ignorant about some things my salvation would normally depend on, I'll go to hell anyway if I die impenitently. Natural virtue won't get anyone a heavenly home. To go to heaven, we need supernatural virtues that only God can give us. If we die without those virtues, we'll go to hell.

The British invented the Bible? Who'd a thunk it? Then again, what do I know? I'm only an American.