Evidence for God from Science

zacchaeus wrote:The law metaphor is neat and interesting, I think its inaccurate. Lets look at it from my view... I say "my view" loosely.

Lets say you and your neighbor have differ curfews or even the same as you alluded, but the punishment would differ and not universally apply. But lets say even if you don't have a curfew (but even if you do)- lets say despite yalls set curfews that the LAW had a mandate curfew of 9pm or there would be a fine set in place for law breakers. At this point all would be under the law including yours and your neighbors child. Lets say this is set in place for so many years, then a gov official comes along and changes the law (or if fulfilled or served its purpose). Lets say I move to the neighborhood and being an advocate of law and politics I read the old law (that is of no effect)- I realize the good in it, a great example can be applicable and practical for my children. Therefore I observe and though not required I set the standard in my house of a 9pm curfew. I have the freedom to do so- correct? Is there a requirement- NO? Is it bad or hurtful- No? Will the LAW punish or fine me or my children for breaking or keeping a 9pm curfew- NO? I think it quite simple... Its not a requirement, and we aren't trying to earn favor with the government, as a suck-up, nor trying to think ourselves any better than you and your neighbor, after all we would all be neighbors- and we are to love each other correct? I wouldn't pass judgment, nor would it be morally, ethically, or anything wrong nor right with whether you or your neighbor "chose" to keep the curfew or not. Thank God that the official changed the LAW right- even though its GOOD, its just not required... Amazing Grace!!!

Zac,
First of all, it is important to understand something about analogies. Not everything is analogous.
Although I'm curious why you say inaccurate and then follow the analogy in a way that actually seems to support what I'm talking about.
You said it, 'practical.'
At that point it isn't a matter of the law. It is a matter of love. You are motivated by what is 'good' for your child. You see the practical truth in a rule. Getting rid of the law didn't change the practical truth behind it. On that point, I'd say we agree. Is that what G is arguing for? Hardly, which all the more confuses why he would agree with you, when we seem to be agreeing. Oh wait, I know. You said it, not me.

As far as G. Anyone with a modicum of sense can read the thread and draw their own conclusions. I simply have no interest in discussing anything with him.

In the early days of the Christian religion, when Christians were Jews who believed in Jesus, they would go to synagogue on the Sabbath just as they had always done. That explains why Paul went into the synagogues to find Christians (Acts 9:2; 22:19; 26:11), and it also explains how Christian worship services got started on Sunday. The early Christians were already going to synagogue on the Sabbath, so they met on Sunday as Christians. This practice became the norm as the Jews began to force the Christians out of the synagogues and as Gentiles became Christians but could not participate in the synagogue services.
Quoted from this article for reference

Also Please read the Summery section within this article PDF: PDF Aticle

It is amazing that long ago in the early church gentiles were streaming into the faith. Yet, they were not permitted to share the synagogues every Sabbath due to being Gentiles deemed unclean by the law to hear the word of God being read there unless they were proselytes in training willing to convert to Judaism. Circumcision became a big issue in those days for Gentiles in order for them to participate in the Passover due to the Torah commandment that only circumcised males could partake of it. This created much controversy due to gentiles being saved and the Apostle Paul addressed this issue head on.

It got so bad, that Christian Gentiles began to meet on the first day of the week due to Jewish persecution and rule making. I encounter another form of this today when planting an assembly in South Dakota. That group meeting on Sunday would create strife for other Sunday Churches in the area, so I suggested that they meet on Saturday night, not because it is considered the seventh day but rather to avoid strife and live at peace with all folks as the bible teaches us. That assembly’s numbers have doubled and are still growing. The other churches still have their members and strife avoided.

I cam image the strife the Jewish folks were stirring during the First century toward Gentiles who converted to follow Jesus. Should they be allowed in the synagogues every Sabbath to hear the word of God, pray, and share community life? How could they unless they be converted to Judaism and circumcised? What of the Jewish followers of Christ who were bringing them in? How should these Jewish believers in Christ be reined in and back to the rabbinic mold?

This was great controversy back then and similarly resurfaces today in some circles of the modern era Messianic movement thought life. It is as though the words of James spoken in Acts 15:9-23 mean nothing. Following the written Law is now a supreme duty for gentiles and no longer is the true law written in the heart of every believer described in Deut 30:6 and as the New Covenant defines in Jeremiah 31:31, 32, 33c heeded very well. Instead, it is a must to observe certain things to prove that you love God. What happened to Grace?

Free Grace People are Holy People. The majority of them do not hold to sinning so that greasey grace abounds. They live quiet and lives and are sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Law of God is inscribed in their hearts and they live by it. Do they worship on the alleged seventh day dictated by rabbinical Judaism? No, such folks as this were long ago forced out of the synagogues, and to avoid strife, worshiped on a day that commemorated Christ’s resurrection. Let’s not forget that sad chapter in Church history.

For some, the words of Paul mean nothing that are written in Romans 14:1-23 and Col 2:16 so that the order of strife pervades, today. Why? Hmmm, is following the written letter of the Law now the means to keep oneself saved? So, should all gentiles become Rabbinic Jews to maintain their salvation and follow the dictates of Rabbi’s again? Does one new man mean now that gentiles must become a ‘Jewish converted legalist?’

One new man does not mean we all must absolutely become Jewish legalist. That debate was settled long ago. Notice, one new man describes the means to make peace between two bounded together in heartfelt love for God, which of that love produces heartfelt obedience to God and his will. Not a love that forces one to demonstrate obeisance by the principles of legalistic obedience.

Ephesians 2:15-22, "Through his body on the cross, Christ put an end to the law with all its commands and rules. He wanted to create one new group of people out of the two. He wanted to make peace between them. 16 He planned to bring both of them as one body back to God because of the cross. Christ put their hatred to death on that cross.

17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away. He also preached peace to those who were near. 18 Through Christ we both come to the Father by the power of one Holy Spirit. 19 So you are no longer strangers and outsiders. You are citizens together with God's people. You are members of God's family.

20 You are a building that is built on the apostles and prophets. They are the foundation. Christ Jesus himself is the most important stone in the building. 21 The whole building is held together by him. It rises to become a holy temple because it belongs to the Lord. 22 And because you belong to him, you too are being built together. You are being made into a house where God lives through his Spirit." NIrV

To accuse fellow Christians from any group who, by their life and conduct live to the inner workings of purification by the Holy Spirit, who’s love is for God and do not live in accord to worldliness, of violating God’s law comes close to heresy and borderlines falling from Grace into works. There is no peace between two, only strife and whom this strife comes from should heed 1 Co 3:3 and James 3:15, 16, James 3:17, 18…

For some, becoming a Jewish legalist is more important than becoming Christ like in conduct and character. So I ask, what does the bible say about this? Who are we to become more like?

Christ? (Gal 3:28, 1 Co 11:1) who By God’s love helps shed from our hearts our sins by profound grace that teaches us - Titus 2:11 - NIV Titus 2:12 NIV.

Or a Jewish Legalist? (Gal 6:13 - Philippians 3:5, 6, 7, 8, 9c)

Which of the two do the writers of the NT warn the most about and teach us to become more like?

You all decide…
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In the early days of the Christian religion, when Christians were Jews who believed in Jesus, they would go to synagogue on the Sabbath just as they had always done. That explains why Paul went into the synagogues to find Christians (Acts 9:2; 22:19; 26:11), and it also explains how Christian worship services got started on Sunday. The early Christians were already going to synagogue on the Sabbath, so they met on Sunday as Christians. This practice became the norm as the Jews began to force the Christians out of the synagogues and as Gentiles became Christians but could not participate in the synagogue services.
Quoted from this article for reference

Also Please read the Summery section within this article PDF: PDF Aticle

Actually the reason why many Christians changed the normal sabbath from Saturday to Sunday was due to the Babylonian sun-god worship. When Christians began to flock to the faith, they started to incorporate their own form of worship which included their own days of worship..

It's easy to demonize Jews for wanting to keep the sabbath and not start instituting "new ideas" to the faith.. They wanted to do that so that they could keep in step with the commandment Exodus 20:8-11, AND promote CORPORATE UNITY in the body of believers. Otherwise we create a term known as DIVISION in the body. Someone worshiping on one day, someone else another..

This does not create unity....

jlay wrote: At that point it isn't a matter of the law. It is a matter of love. You are motivated by what is 'good' for your child. You see the practical truth in a rule. Getting rid of the law didn't change the practical truth behind it. On that point, I'd say we agree. Is that what G is arguing for? Hardly, which all the more confuses why he would agree with you, when we seem to be agreeing. Oh wait, I know. You said it, not me.

As far as G. Anyone with a modicum of sense can read the thread and draw their own conclusions. I simply have no interest in discussing anything with him.

How are you promoting love?? By creating division in the corporate body of believers? So that people can worship on their own day regardless of what the Bible says? This doesn't promote corporate unity among the believers...

Gman wrote:
How are you promoting love?? By creating division in the corporate body of believers? So that people can worship on their own day regardless of what the Bible says? This doesn't promote corporate unity among the believers...

Romans 14:1-12 is clear on this issue. It's up to an individual believer's conscience if one day is more important than another. Scripture couldn't be more clear that God has given the believer the liberty to live according to his conscience. If you want to worship on Saturday, you are free to do so, and other believers shouldn't judge you if your conscience is clear. And, if another believer doesn't want to worship on Saturday, and his conscience is clear, then scripture shows he is granted that liberty too. And he shouldn't be judged by another believer in regards to that.


Romans 14:1-12:

1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

Gman wrote:
It's easy to demonize Jews for wanting to keep the sabbath and not start instituting "new ideas" to the faith.. They wanted to do that so that they could keep in step with the commandment Exodus 20:8-11, AND promote CORPORATE UNITY in the body of believers. Otherwise we create a term known as DIVISION in the body. Someone worshiping on one day, someone else another..

So I guess all believers should worship on the Sabbath, Jerusalem time then, right? That way all believers wherever they are in the world, can worship at the same time. If all believers worship on Saturday at there own local time, then believers would be worshiping at different times. And according to your logic, wouldn't that create division in the body? Sydney, Australia is 18 hours ahead of Honolulu, Hawaii. So, when it's the Sabbath in Hawaii, it very likely would be Sunday in Sydney. Wouldn't that have to promote division according to your belief?

RickD wrote: Romans 14:1-12 is clear on this issue. It's up to an individual believer's conscience if one day is more important than another. Scripture couldn't be more clear that God has given the believer the liberty to live according to his conscience. If you want to worship on Saturday, you are free to do so, and other believers shouldn't judge you if your conscience is clear. And, if another believer doesn't want to worship on Saturday, and his conscience is clear, then scripture shows he is granted that liberty too. And he shouldn't be judged by another believer in regards to that.

No Rick... "Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind" does NOT equate to "Do whatever you like." Being convinced in your own mind is dealing with doctrinal and practical disputes. Where scripture give a clear word, personal opinion must give way.. But where the Word of G-d is subject to various possible interpretations, let each be persuaded in his own mind while at the same time having respect for one another.

So I guess all believers should worship on the Sabbath, Jerusalem time then, right? That way all believers wherever they are in the world, can worship at the same time. If all believers worship on Saturday at there own local time, then believers would be worshiping at different times. And according to your logic, wouldn't that create division in the body? Sydney, Australia is 18 hours ahead of Honolulu, Hawaii. So, when it's the Sabbath in Hawaii, it very likely would be Sunday in Sydney. Wouldn't that have to promote division according to your belief?

Well of course if we look at the world we all can't worship on the same time zone. Didn't you know that we all live in different time zones? So of course people's times of worship will be different. But when we all worship according to our time zone, G-d get's worship for every zone of the earth while the sabbath passes around the earth full circle!!!

Now go to bed Rick.. It's getting late.

Gman wrote:
No Rick... "Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind" does NOT equate to "Do whatever you like."

I think we're going to change your screen name from "Gman" to "Straw man". G, nobody is advocating, "Do whatever you like".

Gman wrote:
Being convinced in your own mind is dealing with doctrinal and practical disputes. Where scripture give a clear word, personal opinion must give way.. But where the Word of G-d is subject to various possible interpretations, let each be persuaded in his own mind while at the same time having respect for one another.

G, some people hold Saturday as more holy than the other days. Some people think Sunday is more important. Others believe all days are alike. Seems like scripture is crystal clear on that.

G, the Sabbath laws ultimately pointed forward to Christ, because He is our Sabbath rest. Since Christ came, He is the fulfillment of the Sabbath laws, and He is our Sabbath. Your saying that all believers have to worship on the Sabbath(without being convinced in one's own mind), is actually promoting the idea that Christ failed at what He came to do. Gman, by preaching that believers must observe the Sabbath, you are denying Christ's work, and are preaching a different gospel.

Okay... now I have to re-intervene...

Concerning the Sabbath...
Jesus is our sabbath- we REST in HIM!!! We can go to church (people) or have worship 7days a week, or simply on a Monday- or has "tradition" has it, Sunday or even Saturday!!!

RickD wrote:
Zacchaeus, that's interesting you should mention that. Do you think, at least in your case, your former beliefs about a believer being able to lose his salvation, ties into being legalistic, and following the law?

Yes it ties into being "Super-legalistic", and no not sure it had anything to do with the law- not in my case!!! My position has nothing to do with the levitical law = Holiness (Holy Living). I was simply told if I died while in a state of unrepentant sin, my belief in Christ was irrelevant and I'm expedited to HELL based on the simple fact I wasn't good enough, I didn't repent enough, believing in Christ and being a "whosoever" means nothing and has no bearing. I have no clue why I used to believe that... but go read my old posts, I was pretty good at defending it, lol (Men in Black Style).

and I know I'll get "Christ-slapped" for separating law from legalism- as we've established before that we define that term differently, but yes can apply and most apply to following a law. I say there is a difference in following, observing, and even living by. But hay, who am I???

This makes for an interesting READ...

http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/ ... fmoses.htm

zacchaeus wrote:This makes for an interesting READ...

http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/ ... fmoses.htm

Excellent article.
He makes so very valid points.
In the end, it is up to each individual to decide for themselves base don their own understanding.
IF our salvation is based on following the bible to the best of our understanding, do you want to leave that understanding ( and salvation) to someone elses interpretation and understanding of scripture?

PaulSacramento wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:This makes for an interesting READ...

http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/ ... fmoses.htm

Excellent article.
He makes so very valid points.
In the end, it is up to each individual to decide for themselves base don their own understanding.
IF our salvation is based on following the bible to the best of our understanding, do you want to leave that understanding ( and salvation) to someone elses interpretation and understanding of scripture?

Yes Paul.
Matthew 27:50-51:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the [a]veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

With the tearing of the veil, the way of access to God was opened and made available to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ. Every believer in Jesus can come directly to God through His shed blood. We do not need any priest, pope, church leader, or intermediary. The way has been opened for every believer.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:This makes for an interesting READ...

http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/ ... fmoses.htm

Excellent article.
He makes so very valid points.
In the end, it is up to each individual to decide for themselves base don their own understanding.
IF our salvation is based on following the bible to the best of our understanding, do you want to leave that understanding ( and salvation) to someone elses interpretation and understanding of scripture?

Yes Paul.
Matthew 27:50-51:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the [a]veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

With the tearing of the veil, the way of access to God was opened and made available to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ. Every believer in Jesus can come directly to God through His shed blood. We do not need any priest, pope, church leader, or intermediary. The way has been opened for every believer.

Yes, I agree also.
That said, and to further discussion, does that mean each believer is responsible for their own "education" in regards to the Gospel?