Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote: Would have to look to the original Hebrew on that one.

In English, if I'm asked to help someone, it can be said I was told to help "them" -- but "them" here is still singular.

Maybe God's saying "help them" (the donkey) with it's owner who's obviously also hating his donkey by burdening it so much.

Somehow I'm getting this strange feeling that RickD posted this message..

Gman wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: Would have to look to the original Hebrew on that one.

In English, if I'm asked to help someone, it can be said I was told to help "them" -- but "them" here is still singular.

Maybe God's saying "help them" (the donkey) with it's owner who's obviously also hating his donkey by burdening it so much.

Somehow I'm getting this strange feeling that RickD posted this message..

The clowns got to me.

NO, Jesus made the law spiritual. I do not follow the "letter" of the law but the "spirit" of the law. Romans 2 "all of it" important verse is 29!!

This is an extremely important question because Christians need to be able to discern what is sin and what is not. Simply quoting the big ten doesn't cover it. For instance, is sex before marriage allowable ? The big 10 only covers adultery, adultery is sex with another person's spouse. The big 10 does not cover the issue of homosexuality either. Don't just brush off these issues, there are major Church schisms happening right now as Christians struggle with these questions. The Episcopal church is dividing on the issue of homosexuality right now. Sex before marriage is an issue that many Christians struggle with, some have expressed it on this forum. So the question remains, which parts of the Mosiac law are still considered sin ?

Topanga wrote:So the question remains, which parts of the Mosiac law are still considered sin ?

The answer:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." - Matthew 5:17
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew 5:18

When will all be fulfilled?
When heaven and earth passes away!!! (as per above quote)
Not when Christ died on the cross, as most Christian ministers assert.

This leaves only one conclusion - the "apostle" Paul was a false prophet.
He persecuted Christians, contradicted what Christ said above, after claiming to be reformed by Christ and called himself an Apostle when he was not one of the twelve apostles.

There are Christians who say that Paul did not do away with the law of Moses, but although some quotes say show he is pro-law, others indicate he is definitely not pro the law of Moses and is pro his own idea of the law and thus contradicts Christ as per above quote.

LostTribesNotLost wrote:

Topanga wrote:So the question remains, which parts of the Mosiac law are still considered sin ?

The answer:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." - Matthew 5:17
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew 5:18

When will all be fulfilled?
When heaven and earth passes away!!! (as per above quote)
Not when Christ died on the cross, as most Christian ministers assert.

This leaves only one conclusion - the "apostle" Paul was a false prophet.
He persecuted Christians, contradicted what Christ said above, after claiming to be reformed by Christ and called himself an Apostle when he was not one of the twelve apostles.

There are Christians who say that Paul did not do away with the law of Moses, but although some quotes say show he is pro-law, others indicate he is definitely not pro the law of Moses and is pro his own idea of the law and thus contradicts Christ as per above quote.

The apostle Paul was a false prophet? Really? First British Israelism. Now Paul was a false prophet. Any other doozies you feel like sharing with us?

You have some serious issues understanding scripture.

I have not read the previous posts, but I am certain that someone, if not many, have mentioned the difference between the 10 commandments which were written by the finger of God, and placed in the ark, and the other laws which Moses or his scribe wrote, concerning civil and ceremonial laws.

Many of those civil, agricultural and health laws are good and can be followed today. The Jews have also included many laws into their life style such as kosher traditions, which are excellent for hygiene and health.

But the ceremonial laws applicable to the sanctuary and its services were particular to the ceremonial year which pointed to the lamb of God, the messiah.
Once He died, that was the end of the sanctuary service on earth and its laws.
However the laws of the ceremonial on earth were kept in mind by the apostles and often referred to, because they were full of lessons and illustrations of the real sanctuary service in heaven which had begun when Jesus ascended into heaven.

But it is clear that these laws were no longer of any value for salvation, because the sacrificial system was gone.
They were never of any value for salvation in the past unless the believer placed his faith in the future redeemer, but the Jews had reduced that sacred trust into vain rituals, which are included in the term "works of the law."
Faith has always been the criterion for salvation.

Strictly speaking the world is under the obligation to keep the law of God which He wrote, but not to the laws of Moses given for Israel, even though, apart from the ceremonial laws, many of those ancient laws are valuable in society today.

Are we still required to follow Mosaic law?
Short answer: No.

neo-x wrote:Are we still required to follow Mosaic law?
Short answer: No.

If Mosaic law is the ten commandments written by God then, yes.

I John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous."

The whole of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation endorses the keeping of the commandments of God.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man."

Satan makes war against the commandment keepers. Revelation 12:17.

Some people tell others that the commandments of Jesus are not the ten commandments of God, that Jesus had another set of rules which are easier to keep, a general love rule that embraces all ideas to unify the world as one happy vegetable.
If that is the case then Satan does not have the whole world (except the few remnant saints) on his side as the Bible says.
But the Bible makes it plain that the world is not interested in keeping the commandments, and that only a few are faithful to God.

If Jesus did not teach the laws of Moses in their full application, that is, as applying to motive as well as the outward actions, we would have to prove from the Bible that the commandments that Jesus upheld were not the ten laws He gave to Moses, but something else.
And if that is true, then the Son of God made a mistake for having the ten laws in the first place. We'd be worshiping a vacillating and unwise god.

I will only direct your attention to the passage below:
2 Corinthians:

3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.

3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as {coming} from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

3:6 who also made us adequate {as} servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading {as} it was,

3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses {it.}

3:11 For if that which fades away {was} with glory, much more that which remains {is} in glory.

3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in {our} speech,

3:13 and {are} not like Moses, {who} used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, {there} is liberty.

3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

What was written on the stone tablets? ofcourse the ten commandments, one should just see what Paul is saying here.

All the texts you quoted are excellent because they show that an outward keeping of the law is of no value, it has to be written in the heart. Christ lived the law of God, He is the living example and source of righteousness.

The letter of the law only sets a standard which cannot save the sinner, but Christ enables the sinner to be renewed in mind and spirit.

But to say that the spirit contradicts or dismisses the law of God is another thing not supported by scripture. The Spirit is not going to celebrate the inability of the law to save, but He rejoices that Christ has honored the law and fulfilled it by living a life pleasing to God. Jesus never sinned. Only as the same Spirit lives in our hearts and minds is the law fulfilled.

Jesus said before His death "I am not come to destroy the law." or to diminish it, or change it, or make it redundant.

If the law is so disposable as modern Christendom thinks, then King David would not have talked about its everlasting and eternal status. What is more Jesus would never have needed to die for it being broken. God never made an error when He gave that law, and if people died when they trampled on sacred ground near the burning Mt Sinai, then how much worse will it be for those who trample on the living example of righteousness in Christ? That's what Paul was saying.

The spirit does dismiss the law of the O.T and gives a new law. Had that O.T law been perfect, we wouldn't need Christ, it was precisely the fact that the law is not perfect is why Christ had to die. Therefore while it was the law of God, it was neither eternal nor perfect.

In the analogy of husband and wife which Paul give in the N.T, he say when a woman's husband is dead is only when she can marry a new husband.

Romans 7:1-3
Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.

and then

Romans 7:4

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.

See how Paul applies the analogy

WE AS BELIEVERS = THE WIFE

THE LAW = THE FORMER HUSBAND

THE NEW HUSBAND = JESUS CHRIST

We could not be joined to Christ if the former husband was alive but he, the Law, is not, because we have been made to die to the Law.

THE LAW IS DEAD TO US and WE ARE DEAD TO THE LAW.

King David would not have talked about its everlasting and eternal status.

Poetic exaggeration is pretty common in the O.T.

If Christians are required to follow that Law then it would have been EXPLICITLY stated in the NT ( It is NOT) ANY they would have had to follow ALL the Laws.
So, there are 612 Laws and while many are ceremonial, MOST are NOT.
To those Christians that believe we most follow the Laws of the OT I ask this:
Are you following all of them? if not then WHO decides which ones to follow?

Neo X ,

Can you see Christ as the embodiment of the law, the spiritual essence of God's character? Or do you just see a law that simply was a mistake?
God does not make mistakes does He?

PaulSacramento wrote:If Christians are required to follow that Law then it would have been EXPLICITLY stated in the NT ( It is NOT) ANY they would have had to follow ALL the Laws.
So, there are 612 Laws and while many are ceremonial, MOST are NOT.
To those Christians that believe we most follow the Laws of the OT I ask this:
Are you following all of them? if not then WHO decides which ones to follow?

Sorry Paul, but the 612 laws were not the ten that God wrote with His own finger, which Christ often referred to.
They are by- laws all under the principle of the ten. But the 600 odd by- laws would not have been written if some of the crowd were not so thick. As Jesus said, Moses gave you the divorce law because you couldn't work out your marriages, but in the beginning it was not so with Adam and Eve. So marriage and the Sabbath were already in the garden.
The law given on Mt Sinai was from a perfect world - heaven, and a copy of them lie in the ark to this day, both in the heavenly sanctuary and on earth in the ark Moses made.

Once we have established what Christ said about the ten, then we can move on safely to what Paul said without getting wrong ideas.

In regards to which ones we follow, all of the ten God wrote, but please tell me which commandment of the ten is repulsive and wrong? Which particular commandment is worthless?