Evidence for God from Science

jpbg33 wrote:I do not see any way around the fact that if we are saved by faith in Jesus. Then if we stop haveing faith in Jesus. How are we still saved because there is no faith.

Not only that but in the parable of the sower the seeps that fell on stony ground after they sprung up they died.

I can't recall any time in the bible where it says that a Chistian can be dead spiritually.

And when Jesus said they fell away He was referring to there belief.

I believe that if we believe then we are saved

So Philip you keep asking me to show you a verse well this is one. We may not know if someone truly believes or not but Jesus does and He said they believed for a while then fell away(stoped believing).

If you read the BBE bible it says that the seeds in the rocky ground is people who have faith for a time then when testing comes they give up.

What it is talking about they give up. If you can not lose your salvation then it would not make any sense to say they gave up. What is it talking about? They gave up what?

I do not use the BBE bible but I checked 7 different versions of the bible and they all read the same. The BBE bible sound the funniest when applying osas to it though. If it doesn't matter if you stop having faith why would the bible say they gave up.

The whole verse was about them getting saved then referring to that the end of the verse said they gave up.

In order for a person to 'get saved' , they have to realize that they are Lost -- that they don't have a shepherd and they Need one. And a person Will know when they have 'been saved'. I know when I was 'saved'. They will have a 'testimony' to share with others.

And it would depend on What a person does believe about Jesus Christ. He was / Is the Son of God.

There are people who Hear the Word and pray a prayer, but don't actually believe in their heart -- thus, Jesus Christ has not really become their Personal Savior.

And a person Can realize that they have Not actually accepted Christ and stop and talk to God about their salvation and make their decision TO accept Christ -- thus, no more reason to Doubt their salvation.

Jpbg: Does the Devil not BELIEVE that Jesus is who He said He is? One can BELIEVE but not truly RECEIVE. This is clear. And that is your problem. Paul states he has confidence those he is addressing will be saved because, not of those who have the faith are of such great Christian character and convinced belief, but because OF THE ONE WHO BEGAN THEIR FAITH will complete it. Note that there is no way that Paul could otherwise know the truth of their futures. He also couldn't know for certain if any certain person was truly saved, but he knew that ANY God had ALREADY began this good work (their salvation), would see it through to the end. One cannot even BELIEVE and have faith without God making that possible. IF they DESIRE to have faith, He'll make that happen for them. It is their faith, but it is impossible without God. It is impossible without His Spirit FIRST wooing, enlightening and drawing them. Scripture says that God chooses those He will save - and this is first based upon His Will and criteria for that - those who will not permanently resist Him, as well as His foreknowledge of all things, hearts and actions. You cannot separate any of that. Man can only RECEIVE the offer of salvation, and then God seals the deal if they do by remaining faithful.

Consider 2 Timothy 2:13: "if we are FAITHLESS, HE remains faithful— (WHY???!!!) for He cannot deny Himself." [/b]What does that mean???!!! It means HIS will WILL be done in those HE begins that good work in! Again, as for God's foreknowledge - and Jpbg, you did not answer this - does God make a mistake in saving people who He would definitely know are ultimately later going to desert Him? What doe Scripture say? "But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His" (2 Timothy 2:19). What about Peter the Disciple - He denied the Jesus three times. He deserted Him in His time of need. But did God abandon Peter? What did Jesus ask Pete afterward - ALSO three times? "Simon son of John, do you love me?" (John 21:13). What doe God tell us? "“For He Himself has said, ‘I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.’ So we may BOLDLY say: ‘The Lord is my helper; I will not fear.'" (Hebrews 13:5-6). A Christian who thinks that his continued salvation rests upon his sinful, fleshly, pathetic ability to resist even everyday sins, should tremble at the false belief that he might, in a sudden crisis of faith, lose that faith. Again, consider 2 Timothy 2:13!

So y'all are puting y'all's self above Jesus. He said they believed I think He would know if they believed for real or not. So are we to now read the bible as Jesus not know if we believe or not.

Jesus said they believed so they were saved.

Jpbg: So y'all are puting y'all's self above Jesus. He said they believed I think He would know if they believed for real or not. So are we to now read the bible as Jesus not know if we believe or not.


Jesus sad they believed so they were saved.

Seriously, Jpbg - THAT is your response???!!! You are not addressing the Scripture that I challenged you with.

Note what Scripture says of mere BELIEF! James says, "Even the demons BELIEVE—and shudder!"

Do people not SAY they believe, SEEM to walk the walk, talk the talk, and YET:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

So, there are people that APPEAR to be Christians, but are not! And such people even respond, "did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’"

"And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

And we see this - that there are: "false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:13)

The above, Jpbg, references those that have some level of BELIEF that has not penetrated their hearts and minds with faith and a commitment of desire for Jesus. It's all on the outside, but is not received in their heart. So, please respond to my previous post's content, and not just a superficial comment. So, mere BELIEF, as I've clearly shown here from Scripture, is meaningless to salvation!

Jpbg -- Seriously, That is your response ??!!! (I'm agreeing with Philip)
Are you simply wanting to play 'the devil's advocate' game?! Kinda sounds like it.

y'all can not be right. The belief Jesus was talking about here was real saving belief. How do we know that because the those by the way side Jesus said "lest they should believe and be saved". So Jesus is talking about the belief we have when we are saved not the belief devils have. In this Parable the seed is the word of God So they believed the word of God.

Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 
Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 
Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 
Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.  (jpbg33 my thoughts on Luke 8:14 "I'm not sure if these people here are saved or not might be because it does not say they stop believing. So I assume they are if so this is the reason we do not see the gifts of the Spirit all the time because we are not living a life separated from the world.")

Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 

crochet1949 wrote:AreEl -- you're spilling --- sounds like a bit of RCC beleefs -- Purgitorry (Parricide) -- the but reencarnashon isnt part of RCC.

And, your rite -- God dusn't want Anyone to go to Hull -- He wood that Everyone wood accipt Jesus Christ as they're personnal Saver. Because Hull is meant Only for Satin, the false profit and the beest. Peple only end up in hull because they Dont accipt Gods gift of salvashon.

Scripchure tells us that NOW is the thyme for salvashon --once this buddy dyes -- we are in eternity -- No More Chances.

Yes. I agree. You really must watch your spelling. You're a little difficult to understand.

AreEl wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:AreEl -- you're spilling --- sounds like a bit of RCC beleefs -- Purgitorry (Parricide) -- the but reencarnashon isnt part of RCC.

And, your rite -- God dusn't want Anyone to go to Hull -- He wood that Everyone wood accipt Jesus Christ as they're personnal Saver. Because Hull is meant Only for Satin, the false profit and the beest. Peple only end up in hull because they Dont accipt Gods gift of salvashon.

Scripchure tells us that NOW is the thyme for salvashon --once this buddy dyes -- we are in eternity -- No More Chances.

Yes. I agree. You really must watch your spelling. You're a little difficult to understand.

AreEl -- I don't know How / Why you did that -- but we both know that you changed My spelling -- and I don't appreciate that. And anyone who's trying to read it can see that.

Philip I have already showed you how the verse you are referring to could mean something other then what you are saying it means. This verse can not mean any thing else. Philip you wont me to go to that verse because you can read it two different ways but this one you can not.

I guess this clears every thing up

jpbg33 my post
y'all can not be right. The belief Jesus was talking about here was real saving belief. How do we know that because the those by the way side Jesus said "lest they should believe and be saved". So Jesus is talking about the belief we have when we are saved not the belief devils have. In this Parable the seed is the word of God So they believed the word of God.

Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 
Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 
Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 
Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.  (jpbg33 my thoughts on Luke 8:14 "I'm not sure if these people here are saved or not might be because it does not say they stop believing. So I assume they are if so this is the reason we do not see the gifts of the Spirit all the time because we are not living a life separated from the world.")

Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 

So people if you are reading this tread do not let others persuade you into thinking you can not lose your salvation because as I have show in this last post Jesus said you can. Let God be true and everyone else a liar.

Jpbg,

Why are you fighting for, and trying to convince people of the unbiblical idea that God will not keep those whom He has given The Holy Spirit, as a guarantee?

What Spirit possesses you to say that God will not do as He promised?

I am not fighting against God but my post say y'all may very well be. It is essay to see where you are wrong by my post.

jpbg33 my post
y'all can not be right. The belief Jesus was talking about here was real saving belief. How do we know that because the those by the way side Jesus said "lest they should believe and be saved". So Jesus is talking about the belief we have when we are saved not the belief devils have. In this Parable the seed is the word of God So they believed the word of God.

Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 
Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 
Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 
Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.  (jpbg33 my thoughts on Luke 8:14 "I'm not sure if these people here are saved or not might be because it does not say they stop believing. So I assume they are if so this is the reason we do not see the gifts of the Spirit all the time because we are not living a life separated from the world.")

Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 

So people if you are reading this tread do not let others persuade you into thinking you can not lose your salvation because as I have show in this last post Jesus said you can. Let God be true and everyone else a liar.

if y'all do not see these is proof that Y'all are wrong then y'all are blind

God promises to keep whosoever believes in Christ.

Jpbg tries to convince people that God is wrong, and believers have to keep from sinning, in order to remain saved.

God's way is by His power, by the Holy Spirit.

Jpbg's way is by man's power, trying not to sin.

Jpbg's way sounds like every other works/performance based false religion.

still no proof what I said is wrong. you can not say that my post is wrong so you say something crazy. I am not say work based. if I am saying any thing other then belief based I do not know there you are getting it. I am saying the same thing Jesus said if you stop believing then you have fallen away. You know my post was right that is why you can not dispute it.

here it is if you think I am wrong then prove it. I did.

jpbg33 my post
y'all can not be right. The belief Jesus was talking about here was real saving belief. How do we know that because the those by the way side Jesus said "lest they should believe and be saved". So Jesus is talking about the belief we have when we are saved not the belief devils have. In this Parable the seed is the word of God So they believed the word of God.

Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 
Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 
Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 
Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.  (jpbg33 my thoughts on Luke 8:14 "I'm not sure if these people here are saved or not might be because it does not say they stop believing. So I assume they are if so this is the reason we do not see the gifts of the Spirit all the time because we are not living a life separated from the world.")

Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 

So people if you are reading this tread do not let others persuade you into thinking you can not lose your salvation because as I have show in this last post Jesus said you can. Let God be true and everyone else a liar.

if y'all do not see these is proof that Y'all are wrong then y'all are blind

jpbg33 wrote:still no proof what I said is wrong. you can not say that my post is wrong so you say something crazy. I am not say work based. if I am saying any thing other then belief based I do not know there you are getting it. I am saying the same thing Jesus said if you stop believing then you have fallen away. You know my post was right that is why you can not dispute it.

here it is if you think I am wrong then prove it. I did.

jpbg33 my post
y'all can not be right. The belief Jesus was talking about here was real saving belief. How do we know that because the those by the way side Jesus said "lest they should believe and be saved". So Jesus is talking about the belief we have when we are saved not the belief devils have. In this Parable the seed is the word of God So they believed the word of God.

Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 
Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 
Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 
Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.  (jpbg33 my thoughts on Luke 8:14 "I'm not sure if these people here are saved or not might be because it does not say they stop believing. So I assume they are if so this is the reason we do not see the gifts of the Spirit all the time because we are not living a life separated from the world.")

Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 

So people if you are reading this tread do not let others persuade you into thinking you can not lose your salvation because as I have show in this last post Jesus said you can. Let God be true and everyone else a liar.

if y'all do not see these is proof that Y'all are wrong then y'all are blind

You have not proven anything. Where specifically in those verses does Jesus say someone can lose salvation? Keep in mind, if you're saying that "falling away" means losing salvation, the onus is on you to explain why aphistēmi should be defined as "losing salvation". You made the claim that Jesus said in those verses that people can lose salvation. Now prove it!

Falling away means losing salvation because in this verse because Jesus was referring to them being saved by believing. then Jesus said they fell away which could only mean they fell away from there belief which Jesus said saved them. There end result was the same as the people on the way side. Because they died and withered away. How it is write falling away could mean nothing but losing there belief.