Evidence for God from Science

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote: The difference, of course, is that Christian fundamentalists (if they are violent) have no Biblical support for their violence. With Islam, though, the extremists are actually the moderates-they're following all the verses in the Koran, and I believe that they call the "moderates" apostates.

Most Christian fundamentalists are anti-violence. Since we can't get rid of Islam, we need to push reform within it.

bizzt wrote: See I don't have a problem with the Islamic part of your Argument. It is the Jewish God that you proclaim is different from the Christian one. Jesus said he was the Alpha and the Omega! Jesus always was and always will be. The Jews may not have recognized the Triune God but Indeed Worshiped the Same God that we do.

The Jews worship an incomplete version of God.

ochotseat wrote:

bizzt wrote: See I don't have a problem with the Islamic part of your Argument. It is the Jewish God that you proclaim is different from the Christian one. Jesus said he was the Alpha and the Omega! Jesus always was and always will be. The Jews may not have recognized the Triune God but Indeed Worshiped the Same God that we do.

The Jews worship an incomplete version of God.

Noooooooooooo!!! No, no, no, no, noooooo!!!

Ocho, God has not changed. He was not incomplete once and complete now. He has always been complete. There is no such thing as an incomplete version of Him.

What is incomplete is the current day Jewish beliefs about Him.

It is the Jewish belief that is incomplete, not God who is incomplete.

God is NOT incomplete. There is no incomplete version of Him around for the Jews to worship.

The adjective "incomplete" must be applied to the noun "belief" and NOT to the proper noun "God".

Oh boy, is this a language problem we have here?
Maybe ocho just has a different way of expressing the same thing.... I dunno.

ochotseat wrote:

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote: The difference, of course, is that Christian fundamentalists (if they are violent) have no Biblical support for their violence. With Islam, though, the extremists are actually the moderates-they're following all the verses in the Koran, and I believe that they call the "moderates" apostates.

Most Christian fundamentalists are anti-violence. Since we can't get rid of Islam, we need to push reform within it.

bizzt wrote: See I don't have a problem with the Islamic part of your Argument. It is the Jewish God that you proclaim is different from the Christian one. Jesus said he was the Alpha and the Omega! Jesus always was and always will be. The Jews may not have recognized the Triune God but Indeed Worshiped the Same God that we do.

The Jews worship an incomplete version of God.

Show me Scriptural Evidence then OC... I have shown you mine!

God is NOT incomplete

I never thought he is.

Show me Scriptural Evidence then OC... I have shown you mine!

I don't need to, because you said you agree with what I said: the Jews' beliefs on their version of God are incomplete.

ochotseat wrote: I don't need to, because you said you agree with what I said: the Jews' beliefs on their version of God are incomplete.

In what post did I Say that?? Stop beating around the Bush!

Jews and Christians worship the same God, but we have a different understanding of Him.

The God the Jews worship and the God the Christians worship comes from the same source--from the Jewish Scriptures of the OT. We as Christians accept the Jewish Scriptures; they do not accept the NT because they do not believe that Jesus was their Messiah.

Allah is an entirely different subject. I do not believe that the Muslim god, Allah, comes from the same source even though the Muslims say it is so. They claim the Jewish prophets as their prophets.

There are too many major differences between Allah and YHVH. Allah says he has no son, even in the figurative sense; YHVH claims that He does. Allah says that Jesus didn't die, yet Jesus died; Allah says that one of Noah's sons died in the flood; YHVH says that Noah's three sons were saved in the flood; Allah says that Jesus made clay birds that could fly when He was a child; this is not in the NT, but in later myth books; Allah says that Jesus spoke as an infant; this is not in the NT, but in later myth books; Allah does not seem to know what mainstream Christianity believed as far as the Trinity is concerned. The closest that the Qur'an comes to a Trinity is God, Jesus and Mary. Nowhere can you find the true concept of the Trinity in the Qur'an—Father, Son (Word) and Holy Spirit. The Qur'an has no concept of the incarnation of the Word of God in Jesus' human body; the Qur'an says in essence that Jesus could not have been God because He ate and slept. Well, Christians have always believed that Jesus was 100% human and needed sleep and food. Why didn't Allah understand what Christians believed? YHVH would have understood. How do we reconcile the fact that Allah allowed Muhammad to have many, many wives when in the OT, YHVH said not to multiply wives? How do we reconcile the fact that Allah allows divorce after YHVH said He hates divorce, taking into consideration what Jesus said about divorce in the NT? I could go on and on with this one.

However, I do believe that the Muslims believe that they are worshipping the same God, the Only God, and the Creator of all. Would this be good enough for God? We could all probably make up a religion and make it similar to the teachings of the Bible and say that the revelations of this new religion came from God. Would that make it so? How similar to the Bible would I have to be in order to get some believers? How different in the teachings from the Bible would it take for me to be accused of being a fraud? In the days of Muhammad the Jews accused him of being a fraud; they knew their Scriptures.

Christian2 wrote:Jews and Christians worship the same God, but we have a different understanding of Him.

The God the Jews worship and the God the Christians worship comes from the same source--from the Jewish Scriptures of the OT. We as Christians accept the Jewish Scriptures; they do not accept the NT because they do not believe that Jesus was their Messiah.

That I agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the days of Muhammad the Jews accused him of being a fraud; they knew their Scriptures.

If they knew their scriptures, what was the excuse for them not following gods instructions?

Ocho simply changed his tune from:

ochotseat wrote: The Jews worship an incomplete version of God.

...to this:

ochotseat wrote: ...the Jews' beliefs on their version of God are incomplete.

A subtle but huge difference.

Christian2, we are singing to the same hymn book.
But it is amazing how much resistance I am getting to this idea on other forums, including from senior clergy.
I'm sure we are not wrong... Allah was a more recent invention fashioned to resemble God, but being manmade, failed abyssmally.

That I agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have all along.

Judah wrote:Ocho simply changed his tune from

Not really, because I just didn't elaborate on what I said earlier.
The Jewish God is our Christian God, but by rejecting God's full resplendence (Trinity), the Jews are rejecting God.

Allah was a more recent invention fashioned to resemble God, but being manmade, failed abyssmally.

Muhammad may had been deceived by a demon.

Judah wrote: Christian2, we are singing to the same hymn book.
But it is amazing how much resistance I am getting to this idea on other forums, including from senior clergy. quote]

I think that it is quite possible that many of the people you encounter including senior clergy are misinformed about Islam and that they lack the experience and the knowledge of Islam to make an intelligent assessment. It took me years of study to get where I am today.

Think of it this way. If someone says that the Muslims are worshipping the same God that Christians do and the Qur'an and the Bible come from the same source, this means that Muhammad was a prophet of God, sent to all from the same God--YHVH. If these people who give you such resistance believe this, then why aren't they Muslims?

The Muslims believe that the Comforter in the Gospel of John is Muhammad. They believe that Jesus prophesized the coming of a prophet after Him and this prophet was Muhammad.

I'm sure we are not wrong... Allah was a more recent invention fashioned to resemble God, but being manmade, failed abyssmally.

Christians believe that the way to salvation is through Jesus. Jesus said no one comes to the Father accept through Him. We believe that He died and rose from the dead. What happens to people who do not believe this? What being would be happier than a pig in mud to have people disbelieve that Jesus died for our sins?

Muslims believe that their good deeds offset their bad deeds. They rely on the mercy of Allah for their salvation. None of them knows for sure whether Allah will forgive them except those who die as martyrs.

Christian2 wrote: The Muslims believe that the Comforter in the Gospel of John is Muhammad. They believe that Jesus prophesized the coming of a prophet after Him and this prophet was Muhammad.

Christian2, can you give me a reference for that? Is there a surah that says just that? I would like to be able to make that point in any future debate with some of the folk I talk with.

One Bishop quoted me a Vatican paper that was very lenient towards the idea that Muslims worship our God. Unfortunately the site is down just right now or I would find you the link to the Vatican statement.
I suspected that there was a large measure of political diplomacy in the statement, but as it stood, I saw it to be just plain wrong. Being honest just gets to be seen as naivety sometimes. So I am naive in my honesty!

The site is back up again, and this is what was quoted me by an Anglo-Catholic Bishop. The Church is clearly the Roman Catholic Church.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

(You can read the entire document at http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... te_en.html)

You would surely think that those supposedly so well educated in Christianity would know much better than that, or do they have another agenda?

Judah,

Christian2, can you give me a reference for that? Is there a surah that says just that? I would like to be able to make that point in any future debate with some of the folk I talk with.

It is Surah 61, verse 6: 061.006
YUSUFALI: And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

Notice the word "Ahmad." In the commentary of my Qur'an it says the following: "Ahmad", or "Muhammad", the Praised One, is almost a translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the present Gospel of John …the word, "Comforter" in the English version is for the Greek word "Paracletos", which means "Advocate", one called to help of another, a kind friend" rather than "Comforter". Our doctors contend that Paracletos is a corrupt reading for Periclytos, and that in their original saying of Jesus there was a prophecy of our holy Prophet Ahmad by name. Even if we read Paraclete, it would apply to the holy Prophet who is "a Mercy for all creatures" (xxi. 107) and "most kind and merciful to the Believers" (ix 128).

Here is an article analyzing the claim that Muhammad is the Comforter: http://answering-islam.org/Silas/comforter.htm

I have made many arguments to Muslims about the Comforter. First of all Jesus was speaking to His disciples. He said the Comforter would be in them. How could that be when Muhammad came 600 years later?

It is not just the Comforter that Muslims claim foretells of Muhammad. They are so desperate to have Muhammad foretold in the Bible that they take verses out of context and put their own spin on them. It is really very sad. Just when I think I have heard the last claim, up pops another one. One of the funniest is where they try to get Muhammad's name in the Song of Songs. The lady is describing her beloved and right in the middle of her little speech, up pops Muhammad's name.

I suspected that there was a large measure of political diplomacy in the statement, but as it stood, I saw it to be just plain wrong. You would surely think that those supposedly so well educated in Christianity would know much better than that, or do they have another agenda?

I read the statment by the Vatican very carefully. There is some truth to it. Muslims do revere Jesus and Mary and believe in the last day, etc. I think that the statement was a very cleverly crafted politically correct statement with the purpose of promoting religious tolerance. What do you expect them to say? Would you expect the Vatican to make a statement similar to what you and I would make?

Didn't the Pope meet recently with some Muslim leaders and basically say that we should work together to put an end to terrorism? He stopped short of saying that the Qur'an and the Hadiths are the source of that terrorism, but I think that the implication was there.

BTW: I just found this little document in response to the Vatican statement that you might be interested in reading:

http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htm

Christian2, thanks for such an excellent response.
I have noted those surahs for future reference.

I believe that there is no need to inflame Islam and that Christian leaders at this high level have to tread extremely carefully. That is what I read into the Vatican document.
But the sad thing is that others, unaware of the real truth, may believe what is written on face value. It appears on the surface to support the idea of Christians and Muslims worshipping the same God, and those who have not thought very deeply about the issue may easily see this as the stance of the Church when indeed, it is truly something else.
That was my point in mentioning (I meant it rhetorically) "another agenda".

It is very important that Christians work with Muslims to reduce the terrorism and this aggressive thrust of evil.
But I do keep coming back to a basic first principle, as I see it, which I have mentioned before by way of analogy with alcoholism... that the problem must stop being denied in order for real change to take place. Muslim clergy must admit that the Qur'an does indeed incite violence and deal with the problem at source, in other words, with their own so-called holy book.

That article in response to the Vatican paper was very helpful.
And thanks also for the link to the article analyzing the (false) claim that Muhammad is the Comforter.