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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:56 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bigbang.html

The highlights:

This is the blink of an eye I was talking about-

If that doesn't defend my case, well, nothing will...(that is most of the essay...LOL)
I am sorry KMart, I tire of this conversation. No this doesn't defend your case. Are you arguing for someone else? These are somone elses thoughts, and they are based on outdated scientific information. On what basis does he determine something is impossible? He is only stating beleifs without evidence.

I was at first willing to go through the document and point out each flaw and error but it is a waste of time. Examine the evidence yourself, don't quote outdated opinions of others.

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:28 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
I figured you would want me to elaborate so I have done so, but I do not expect a full responce from you, however much I would like one.
The standard evolutionary story describes an earth bombarded by meteorites from its origin 4.5 billion years ago until almost 3.8 billion years ago. Within only 100 million years the first life evolved following the cessation of this celestial onslaught. This, in and of itself, is a huge evolutionary hurdle without explanation.
So, if science does not have an explanation for the origin of life and explanation for evolution is invalid? Nonsence.
For the next 3 billion years, little else but single- celled life forms ruled the planet. Then suddenly, in the Cambrian geological period, the earth is populated with a huge diversity of complex multicellular life forms. This has always looked suspiciously like some form of creation event, and paleontologists frequently seemed rather embarrassed by the reality of the Cambrian Explosion.
This information is incorrect, what of the other times mass speciation occurred? There were many periods where there was even greater diversity and complexity in a short period of time. Were they creation events too?

Even a smaller timeframe...
Yet, here is the real puzzle of the Cambrian Explosion for the theory of evolution. All the known phyla, except one, along with the oddities with which I began this discussion, first appear in the Cambrian period.
Not true, just at the time of the Burgess Shale discovery, these were the earliest known examples of many animal phyla. Now this information is out of date, you can appreciate that I would think.
There are no ancestors. There are no intermediates. Fossil experts used to think that the Cambrian lasted 75 million years. But even that seemed to be a pretty short time for all this evolutionary change. Eventually the Cambrian was shortened to only 30 million years. And if that wasn't bad enough, the time frame of the real work of bringing all these different creatures into existence was limited to the first five to ten million years of the Cambrian.
Again based on out of date fossil evidence.
This is extraordinarily fast! Harvard's Stephen Jay Gould says, "Fast is now a lot faster than we thought, and that is extraordinarily interesting." What an understatement! "Extraordinarily impossible" might be a better phrase!
How does he determine the impossibility of the event? You must answer this question above all else.

In the Time magazine article (p. 70), paleontologist Samuel Bowring says, "We now know how fast fast is. And what I like to ask my biologist friends is, How fast can evolution get before you start feeling uncomfortable?"
It's not about feeling uncomfortable the evidence is there it is up to scientists to continue to make more discoveries so that we can continue to hone the theory of how it came to place.

OH and here's the pain...and there are fish!-
There are no fish, where?
This necessity of gradualism explains the difficulty evolutionists have concerning the Cambrian explosion or Evolution's Big Bang, as Time magazine called it.
Well yes at the time this discovery took place there was inconsistencies with then current theory. So the theory had to be reworked. And it will be reworked again as more evidence comes in. This is how science works.
How could animals as diverse as arthropods, molluscs, jellyfish, and even primitive vertebrates all appear within a time span of only 5-10 million years with no ancestors and no intermediates?
They didn't
Evolution just doesn't work this way.
It does now.
Fossil experts and biologists are only beginning to wrestle with this thorny dilemma. Some think that genes which control the process of development from a fertilized egg to an adult, the so- called Hox genes, may have reached a critical mass which led to an explosion of complexity. Some of the simplest multi-celled organisms like the jellyfish only have three Hox genes, while insects have eight, and some not-quite-vertebrates have ten. Critical mass may be a real phenomena in physics, but biological processes rarely if ever work that way.
On who's authority? If we have children in a classroom all of a sudden given crayons there will be an explosion of expressions. But by adult hood there will be accepted ways of using this tool. Even crayon use evolves throughout our lives within society.
Besides, that doesn't solve the important riddle of where the first Hox gene came from in the first place. Genetic information does not just spontaneously arise from random DNA sequences.
This is not in the domain of evolution per say, although it is related and has been incorporated tentatively.

Before addressing this question, let's review our discussion thus far. Evolution's Big Bang, the Cambrian explosion of life that supposedly occurred over 500 million years ago, continues to puzzle evolutionists.
So does possible human involvement in the rise in average global temperature, but no-one denies global warming, only what the possible causes are.
Recent discoveries have narrowed the time frame from over 70 million years to less than 10 million years. This has only complicated their dilemma because so many different creatures appear in the Cambrian with no ancestors or intermediates.
This is out of date, but in any case lack of data does not make for evidence.
The major evolutionary innovations represented in the Cambrian would ordinarily require at least tens of millions of years to accomplish. Some might even suggest over 100 million years would be required. The differences between the creatures that suddenly appear in the Cambrian are enormous. In fact these differences are so large many of these animals are one of a kind. Nothing like them existed before and nothing like them has ever appeared again.
Again these are statements made with nothing to back them up. Many of them subjective.
In fact, a question that is just as perplexing as how this explosion of diversity could occur so fast, is why hasn't such drastic change ever happened in the 500 million years since? The same basic body plans that arose in the Cambrian remain surprisingly constant ever since. Apparently, the most significant biological changes in the history of the earth occurred in less than ten million years, and for 500 million years afterward, this level of change never happened again. Why not? This may seem like a simple question, but it is far more complicated than it appears.
Its very simple these forms although intact to today have changed greatly and have helped to shape an environment where predation and organic interaction is no longer pristine and new. If one were to introduce these earlier forms of multicellular experimentation into todays ecosystem, they would simply perish. Once an order is in place there is no room for new insertions. This has been shown in simulations and can be seen in everyday life.

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:52 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
So, if science does not have an explanation for the origin of life and explanation for evolution is invalid? Nonsence.
No, I said if science shows that abiogenesis is impossible (which I think it has, unless you scream and cry to the idea of seeding, which only moves the problem to another planet....in which case read Privileged Planet-it's about how unlikely life is even POSSIBLE outside of Earth...)

This information is incorrect, what of the other times mass speciation occurred? There were many periods where there was even greater diversity and complexity in a short period of time. Were they creation events too?
There are no other times that mass speciation occurred. It is you, young grasshopper, who is wrong.


Quote:
Even a smaller timeframe...
Quote:
Yet, here is the real puzzle of the Cambrian Explosion for the theory of evolution. All the known phyla, except one, along with the oddities with which I began this discussion, first appear in the Cambrian period.

Not true, just at the time of the Burgess Shale discovery, these were the earliest known examples of many animal phyla. Now this information is out of date, you can appreciate that I would think.
There are now a total of four pre-Cambrian Explosion phylums...
Again based on out of date fossil evidence.
You say this, but just because data is old, it doesn't mean it is automatically wrong. It would help if you'd point out new information...which you haven't bothered to do. I'm the only siting one sources, and I've only sited ONE!
There are no fish, where?
I said there are fish in the Cambrian Explosion-which you adamentally deny.

Well yes at the time this discovery took place there was inconsistencies with then current theory. So the theory had to be reworked. And it will be reworked again as more evidence comes in. This is how science works.
Really? The theory is re-worked? What's was changed? Punctuated equilibrium? Still doesn't fit the evidence. It's also interesting that a theory is supposed to make predictions...but, so far...evidence that is found makes the theory change all the time...:-p


Quote:
How could animals as diverse as arthropods, molluscs, jellyfish, and even primitive vertebrates all appear within a time span of only 5-10 million years with no ancestors and no intermediates?

They didn't
Well, you whine when the author of the article I quoted didn't fall back on some authority....am I to believe you are the expert in these areas?
Recent discoveries have narrowed the time frame from over 70 million years to less than 10 million years. This has only complicated their dilemma because so many different creatures appear in the Cambrian with no ancestors or intermediates.

This is out of date, but in any case lack of data does not make for evidence.
The hopeful evolutionist? This is circular reasoning-you believe evolution is true, so you then assume that the evidence exists that will prove it true in the fossil record..we just somehow haven't found it after 150+ years...
Quote:
The major evolutionary innovations represented in the Cambrian would ordinarily require at least tens of millions of years to accomplish. Some might even suggest over 100 million years would be required. The differences between the creatures that suddenly appear in the Cambrian are enormous. In fact these differences are so large many of these animals are one of a kind. Nothing like them existed before and nothing like them has ever appeared again.

Again these are statements made with nothing to back them up. Many of them subjective.
On whose authority???


Its very simple these forms although intact to today have changed greatly and have helped to shape an environment where predation and organic interaction is no longer pristine and new. If one were to introduce these earlier forms of multicellular experimentation into todays ecosystem, they would simply perish. Once an order is in place there is no room for new insertions. This has been shown in simulations and can be seen in everyday life.
You make this statement in the same breath that you that there have been other mass speciations...if you can't be right, could you try being consistent?

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:01 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB ... php?id=119

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB ... .php?id=29


Here, more authority that backs up my statements...oh, and please realize, there comes a point when a man cannot call on someone else's authority..because, hey, maybe, they are the supreme authority in a field?

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:04 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:30 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
bizzt wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote: Again wrong there is fossil evidence going back further than the Cambrian. Look up Vendian.
But still you can not take away from the Fact that 53 million years ago or whatever a Mass amount of Species came into Existance out of BASICALLY no where.
No I cannot.
=)

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:26 am
by Believer
Quick update before I post the media for day 3 and 4 in the next 24 hours. I watched the conclusion to day 4, the last day on the week long special, and it is Jon Stewarts opinion that science, before we die, will be able to create the Big Bang in a laboratory, and prove God doesn't exist. Hmm, might as well start telling those ghosts/spirits/demons to not exist anymore because God doesn't exist.

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:38 pm
by Kurieuo
So if a scientist in the labratory can create something similar to the "big bang," then who was the "Scientist" that created the real one? ;)

Kurieuo

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:26 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
Kurieuo wrote:So if a scientist in the labratory can create something similar to the "big bang," then who was the "Scientist" that created the real one? ;)

Kurieuo
That begs the question-you cannot make a big bang in a laboratory...

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:49 pm
by SUGAAAAA
how can "creating a Big Bang in a lab" (even if it were possible) disprove God's existence?? :roll:



I wanted to watch the Schmevolution special but i missed it :x

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:01 pm
by Believer
SUGAAAAA wrote:how can "creating a Big Bang in a lab" (even if it were possible) disprove God's existence?? :roll:
It doesn't disprove God. I find if they could create a miniature Big Bang in a lab, good for them, still doesn't answer anything other than they are just having fun with the Laws of God.
SUGAAAAA wrote:I wanted to watch the Schmevolution special but i missed it :x
Sorry, I made interactive posts on this thread for the first 2 out of 4 days recapping it. It was just dumb to be quite honest. You didn't miss anything. Some links might not work.