The Blood Clotting Cascade Mechanism

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BGoodForGoodSake
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Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

August wrote:Don't cancel golf, that just isn't right....
It's raining. =(
I'm going to go to the museums.

But first lets continue the discussion.
Last time we duplicated a protein analogous to hiring Josh's twin.

Now in the organic world the company can be duplicated over and over again each one being slightly different. With two genes encoding for Josh they both get expressed. Lets get back to the analogy.

Josh and Josh's twin are both responsible for the same things. What is most likely to happen? Well at first they would both do their assigned job. But if one day Josh decides to go play a game of golf there isn't any harm done to the company because his twin is effectively doing the job. After days and days of truancy Josh is fired!

But this might not always happen. Josh may be given a promotion. That is being so similar to his twin; identical in fact, he may be given a supervisory role given his experience.

Now in the biological world it doesn't quite happen this way. No genes get promoted or fired. But duplicated genes allow one of the genes the freedom to degrade. As Kmart pointed out earlier both genes are not necessary for the mechanism to continue functioning. However both genes continue to be expressed.

If for instance a mutation occurs in one of the genes, it is less likely to be harmful because the other gene is still there. Now in most cases the duplicated gene mutates to the point of becoming detrimental. However sometimes the resulting protein from mutated the gene can have a novel function. Neither is the case here.

If we go back to out original discussions an added step allows an initial condition like tissue factor to be amplified. The duplicate gene is beneficial from the get-go. While maintaining the flexibility provided by being a duplicate gene.

So how do the blood clotting factors interact?
A simplistic view was diagrammed in the pages which Kmart has had earlier scanned for us. But there are some details which were left out. First the extrinsic cascade is usually too late. When a cut causes tissue factor to be released into the blood the intrinsic pathway set off and clotting begins. Platelets in the blood complete the clotting after initial fibrinogen clumping. Yet the extrinsic cascade continues? Well if you remember earlier the extrinsic pathway also creates anti-thrombin. It's a breaking system.

How does it all work?
As discussed earlier the function of a protein depends on its shape. Many of the factors are shaped the same and work the same.
Factors can cleave themselves and Prothrombin. When an organism is cut the extrinsic pathway is not taken exactly as described. Many of the factors act on each other, themselves and prothrombine outside of the sequence previously described. Not only that, Thrombine acts on some of the clotting factors as well activating them.

Next I will continue with the analogy and answer the question, “What happens if I add an additional step to the cascade”?

Also if there is any pont here you with to dispute, please do so.
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Post by AttentionKMartShoppers »

False analogy anyway. A company is run by conscious people, a cell is unconscious. There would have to be a random mutation for anyone to be promoted (or more likely, demoted). Also, when a gene is duplicated, I believe that only one is expressed
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Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:False analogy anyway. A company is run by conscious people, a cell is unconscious. There would have to be a random mutation for anyone to be promoted (or more likely, demoted). Also, when a gene is duplicated, I believe that only one is expressed
Well yes and no.
An analogy is only a model and cannot be completely analagous. So you are correct in that a gene cannot be promoted or demoted.

In fact a company does not spawn companies like itself either. A biological system duplicates itself with slight changes.

However when a gene is duplicated both genes are indeed expresed.
Sometimes this may cause unforseen consequences. Other times this leads to production of additional proteins. And in other cases it leads to no change because gene activation is related to protein concentrations or other feedback system.
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Post by AttentionKMartShoppers »

I know an analogy CANNOT fit what you're talking about 100% percent...but even the points you brought up didn't fit. None of your points fit.
Last edited by AttentionKMartShoppers on Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

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Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:I know an analogy fit what you're talking about 100% percent...but even the points you brought up didn't fit.
Be more specific.
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Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

So, lets continue the analogy.

Josh and Josh's twin are both have the same skill set.
Now to make this analagous to the biological world, the company is copied countless times each time Josh and Josh's twin change. Now being encoded in separate genes eventually "errors" are introduced.

Josh and Josh's twin are no longer twins. Josh's twin, lets call him Joe is the same as the first day he came into work, so many companie copies ago. While Josh has changed.

Back to the biological world. Lets duplicate factor i (i for imaginary). At first factor i and i2 are identical. Since i2 continues its duties i is free to change. Now if you remember the factors have the ability of activating each other.
[tissue factor activates i --> ia
ia can also activate i --> ia
This is because protiens work by the way they are shaped and most of the receptor sites for all of these reactions are more or less the same.]

So back to the example, i now free to change develops the ability to cleave i2 better.
ia + i2 --> i2a
It is more likely now that i activate i2 then tissue factor will.
i2 is now free to change as long as i can continue to activate it.
Eventually ia may be more likely to activate i2 then tissue factor.

FROM:

tissue factor
|
i -> ia
|
X --> Xa
clot

TO:

tissue factor
|
i2 -> i2a
|
i --> ia
|
X --> Xa
clot

Above diagram details our imaginary example.

So we have effectively added a step of complexity.
But this does not reflect the actual blood clot cascade mechinism. It's much more complex than this. So what is the next step?
I would continue but I am sure that there will be rejections to what was stated above. So its best to allow any objections here.
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Post by AttentionKMartShoppers »

Imaginary examples can stand up to brute facts.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Imaginary examples can stand up to brute facts.
Would you like to share some of these brute facts?
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Post by August »

Bgood, on another thread wrote:
On the flip side, the reason Intelligent design cannot be discussed in a scientific journal is because of the same reason. You cannot disprove it so therefore it is not in the realm of scientific thinking.
You sure are going to a lot of trouble disproving something that according to you cannot be disproved.
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Post by Kurieuo »

Perhaps it would be worthwhile stating what you're setting out to prove (or disprove?), because it just isn't obvious to me where you are going and this makes discussion difficult. Yet a few comments anyway...

You appear to already be starting with the pre-existing blood clotting system within which the proteins already seem finely-tuned to interact with each other (i.e., are the right shape, get activated and switched off at the right time, etc.).

Additionally, it is quite easy to conceive of duplication happening due to say a regulatory protein malfunctioning. Yet, is true complexity really being added within your example? Perhaps so. If I drop a stack of scrabble tiles on the ground, I think in some way the random end result would be complex. And if I threw another stack down for good measure, then it could perhaps be said further complexity was added. On the other hand if I walked into a room and saw some scrabble tiles forming the sentence, "up for scrabble" the significance to such an arrangement might make me conclude that someone wants to play Scrabble. Here we not only have complexity, but specified information within complexity, each letter being "finely-tuned" to another if you will. If I left and came back a few minutes later to see "pretty please" added, then we not only have new complexity like throwing a second stack of tiles down, but new information complexity. Your example perhaps satisfies criteria for complexity, but not information complexity. For that, I see you need something further. But I'm really not sure whether what I've written is worthwhile to this discussion, since you are holding your cards very close to you.

Kurieuo
Last edited by Kurieuo on Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kurieuo »

August wrote:Bgood, on another thread wrote:
On the flip side, the reason Intelligent design cannot be discussed in a scientific journal is because of the same reason. You cannot disprove it so therefore it is not in the realm of scientific thinking.
You sure are going to a lot of trouble disproving something that according to you cannot be disproved.
Ahhh... is that it? I still am not sure how this is happening via the posts thus far.

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Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

August wrote:Bgood, on another thread wrote:
On the flip side, the reason Intelligent design cannot be discussed in a scientific journal is because of the same reason. You cannot disprove it so therefore it is not in the realm of scientific thinking.
You sure are going to a lot of trouble disproving something that according to you cannot be disproved.
Very true, but you left out the part where irreducible complexity cannot be proven either. In this thread you brought up, we discussed that irreducible was a subjective conclusion not necessary supported by the evidence. And that is what I am duplicating here using a real world example.
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Post by August »

Ahhh... is that it? I still am not sure how this is happening via the posts thus far.
Yeah, I should have said "trying to disprove".
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
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Post by August »

Very true, but you left out the part where irreducible complexity cannot be proven either. In this thread you brought up, we discussed that irreducible was a subjective conclusion not necessary supported by the evidence. And that is what I am duplicating here using a real world example.
You are trying to prove a negative?
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

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//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
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Post by Kurieuo »

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:Very true, but you left out the part where irreducible complexity cannot be proven either. In this thread you brought up, we discussed that irreducible was a subjective conclusion not necessary supported by the evidence.
So there exists nowhere "a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts would cause the system to effectively cease functioning"?
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