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Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:14 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:waynes world wrote:I have studied the Bible for over 40 years and have never seen the Bible give the earths age. I know the YEC people will quote Genesis 5. But arent several names missing? Also, I was told that the word "Son" can mean "descendent".
Up to the flood there are no names missing. You can actually date the flood to the exact number of years it occurred after the fall.
How would you know. The only way you could say the Bible had names missing would be to find a source that has more names...Proving a negative again? BGood, how could you.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:36 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:BGoodForGoodSake wrote:waynes world wrote:I have studied the Bible for over 40 years and have never seen the Bible give the earths age. I know the YEC people will quote Genesis 5. But arent several names missing? Also, I was told that the word "Son" can mean "descendent".
Up to the flood there are no names missing. You can actually date the flood to the exact number of years it occurred after the fall.
How would you know. The only way you could say the Bible had names missing would be to find a source that has more names...Proving a negative again? BGood, how could you.
First off I never ever tried to prove a negative. So no, I am not trying to prove a negative again.
Second do you even read the bible? And did you even read my post?
I said there are
no names missing. Don't jump the gun you'll get caught.
=P
The time from the fall to the time of the Flood is all accounted for in the bible.
Here are the verses.
Genesis Chap 5.
See all the years are accounted for. Add it all up and the flood occurs 1656 years after Adam is born. None of Noah's ancestors survive the flood.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:12 pm
by Jbuza
gone
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:27 am
by waynes world
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:waynes world wrote:I have studied the Bible for over 40 years and have never seen the Bible give the earths age. I know the YEC people will quote Genesis 5. But arent several names missing? Also, I was told that the word "Son" can mean "descendent".
Up to the flood there are no names missing. You can actually date the flood to the exact number of years it occurred after the fall.
No you can't date that. The Bible forbids that for one thing. In 1 Timothy 1 verse 3 Paul says: Devote yourselves no longer to myths based on endless genelogies. He was talking to the Macedonians who had different dates for the creation of the world and each group claimed they had the right date. Paul warned that they weren't supposed to do that because it had taken away from what they were supposed to do, namely preach the word and the controversy had gotten out of hand. The fact is there are many names missing in the genelogies in Genesis 5. Plus if you look at the original Hebrew of Genesis One I noticed that the word "day" only appears twice in the whole account. The terms evening and morning are never together. Also there are no numbers either just letters. David says the universe is old in Psalms 68 verse 33. So did Moses in Genesis 49:26 and in Deut 33 verses 13-20 where he blesses Joseph's tribe. The Hebrew lists the days as possibly meaning symbolic and not necessairly 24 hours. Plus there could have been a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. I would suggest that we not date the earth unless we were there physically and none of us were there. Its not going to affect our salvation one way or the other.
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:40 am
by Kurieuo
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:I said there are no names missing.
Disagree. I'd be interested to know how you come to such a conclusion?
Kurieuo
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:26 am
by Jbuza
gone
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:11 am
by Jbuza
gone
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:25 am
by Jbuza
gone
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:55 am
by Kurieuo
I recommed two pages which discuss radiometric dating and how it works:
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Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective (PDF) by Dr. Roger C. Wiens
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The Dynamics of Dating
Jbuza wrote:Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
except of course the non-existent missing ones.
Genesis
"And
Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and became the father of a son. Now he called his name
Noah, (Genesis 5:28-29)... And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah became the father of
Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)... The sons of Shem: Elam, Asshur,
Arphaxad, Lud and Aram. (Genesis 10:22)... Arphaxad was the father of
Shelah, and Shelah the father of
Eber. Two sons were born to Eber: One was named
Peleg (Genesis 10:24-25)"
Luke
"the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of
Peleg, the son of
Heber, the son of
Shelah, (Luke 3:35)
the son of
Cainan, the son of
Arphaxad, the son of
Shem, the son of
Noah, the son of
Lamech, (Luke 3:36)"
Luke is in the reverse of Genesis. Notice a person missing from the Genesis accounting? Cainan? In Genesis Aphaxad is the father of Shelah, whereas in Luke Shelah's father is Cainan. The Hebrew word,
ab (father) also has the meaning of ancestor.
Recommend article:
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... enealogies
Kurieuo
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:24 am
by Kurieuo
Evidence for old Earth
and uniformitarian processes (quoted from
http://www.reasons.org/chapters/spokane ... tter.shtml):
Coral Layers
Like the layers of tree rings coral layers vary in density according to seasonal changes. The unique gift they offer to researches is that they not only present us with annual bands but also daily bands. In other words, for every yearly band found we also detect 365 daily bands. This is an indirect way of telling us that the lengths of each day are 24 hours long. Astronomers have made measurements using atomic clocks on the rate of deceleration of the rotation period of Earth. The results present a deceleration time of 0.000015 sec per day. Although we would have reason to expect fluctuations in this rate we can estimate that at 10 million years ago the length of a day would have been approximately 200 seconds less. Extrapolating from this figure back we would expect the Devonian period (360 — 410 million years ago) to be characterized by days of 21.8 hours in length or 400 days per year.
Ancient coral layers dated to the Devonian era via thorium 230 and protactinium 231 radiometric methods provide an independent test for the astronomical calculations mentioned. The exciting discovery from ancient coral was that daily growth lines counted between the extreme values of 385 and 410 leaving us with an average for that period that correlates very well with the astronomical methods. Coral from the Pennsylvanian (late Carboniferous: 290 — 325 million years ago) era from two different geographical regions gave 390 and 385 lines per annum. These results imply that the lengths of each day have increased as the earth has slowed down over the 100 million years since the Devonian period and provide further collaborative support for uniformitarian processes.
Ref: John Wells Coral Growth and Geochronometry 1963,
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... rowth.html
Kurieuo
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:17 am
by BGoodForGoodSake
Kurieuo wrote:BGoodForGoodSake wrote:I said there are no names missing.
Disagree. I'd be interested to know how you come to such a conclusion?
Kurieuo
I'm not saying I agree, all I am saying is that if you analyze the scripture the amout of time between the fall and the great flood can be calculated.
see.
When Adam had lived
130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.
6 When Seth had lived
105 years, he became the father
of Enosh. 7 And after he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived 912 years, and then he died.
9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 And after he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived 905 years, and then he died.
12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 And after he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived 910 years, and then he died.
15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 And after he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived 895 years, and then he died.
18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 And after he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died.
21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 And after he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died.
28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah [c] and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed." 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived 777 years, and then he died.
Genesis Chap 6 verse 7 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth
Add it all together you get roughly 1656 years. See no time unaccounted for, no names missing.
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:46 am
by Kurieuo
Add it all together you get roughly 1656 years. See no time unaccounted for, no names missing.
I've already demonstrated the genealogy is open, not closed. So how do you know no names are missing? Furthermore, it has been pointed out implausible genealogies emerge. For by adding up the same numbers one can determine the dates of births and deaths after Adam's creation:
Adam (1-930 AA)
Seth (130-1042 AA)
Enosh (235-1140)
Kenan (325-1236)
Mahalalel (395-1290)
Jared (460-1422)
Enoch (622-987)
Methuselah (687-1656)
Lamech (874-1651)
Noah (1056-2006)
Shem (1558-2158)
Arphaxad (1658-2096)
Salah (1693-2126)
Eber (1723-2187)
Peleg (1757-1996)
Reu (1787-2026)
Serug (1819-2049)
Nahor (1849-1997)
Terah (1878-2083)
Abraham (2008-2183)
Isaac (2108-2228)
Jacob (2168-2315)
(Geisler, Norman,
Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, pp.268-269)
Some points noted are Adam would have been a contemporary of Lamech, Noah's father. Abraham only missed being a contemporary of Noah by 2 years. Isaac would have been born fifty years before Shem died. Yet, nothing is mentioned of their being contemporaries. There are also population improbabilities which I won't get into, for I think this ought to be enough to reveal there clearly are gaps.
Kurieuo
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:07 am
by waynes world
Why does 1 Timothy 1:3 forbid us from dating the earth by using endless genelogies?
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:42 am
by Kurieuo
You mean 1 Timothy 1:4? Interesting. I've never taken notice of that particular verse before. "Endless" according to Strongs can also mean "unfinished" or Thayer definition "can not be passed through." The implication seems to be the task of putting together genealogies is an ongoing task that never becomes completed (not that the genealogies are actually infinite). Yet, if they are mapped out as Genesis reveals, then surely this task of mapping genealogies would be much simpler?
Kurieuo
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:04 pm
by waynes world
According to the commentaries I have seen the Macedonians were really into dating things by genelogies. It looks to me like Paul is warning against using the genelogies to date the earth. What those people were doing had resulted in such a great controversy that they had gotten away from what they were supposed to do, namely preach the word. The lesson should be clear here. We can have an opinion but we shouldn't devote our time so much to it that it becomes more important than our salvation. I have been in a church where that was the case. It was so bad there that I was told that I had compromised my faith because I couldn't believe in the YEC position. Its not a salvation issue, I hope you at least see that. Its funny you would mention Strongs because it says that the word day in Genesis 1 can read symbolic. One should not read too much into the dates. Like I said there are other ways around that. We don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. I would suggest that when Adam disobeyed God is when the time as we know it began. Also there could have been a long time in Genesis 1:1 and the day could have started in verse 3 with the words "and God said."