Evidence for God from Science

B.W. wrote:"Immaturity" would denote a debased nature to naturaly choose wrong?? By debased I mean to imply an immature rebellious streak.?? What do you think???

Good questions to try and figure out. Now, I don't know if it's necessary even to say "debased" and "naturally choose wrong," as if the state of being "immature" means you're slanted automatically toward being debased and rebellious. Could it simply be, "Immaturity denotes a nature that chooses wrong". Free will in and of itself not being the same as "immaturity," but choosing the unwise action, the unGodlike course to take -- that being the act of immaturity.

This reminds me of fundamental teachings and prayers of Jesus, "not my will but thy will be done." The extent the Father's will is abided by, that we comprehend the Father's will and exercise faith that it is good and right, is perhaps the measure of maturity. Jesus, having perfect faith, perfect comprehension, and perfect trust in the Father's will, would then have been the most divinely "mature" religious example of all time for us -- "the way, the truth, and the life". Locker, you ask whether "the seeking of knowledge" has to do with the spreading of sin, but I think I'm more inclined to the opinion that "not abiding by the Father's will", and not submitting your will for his will in perfect faith like a little child, is more what has to do with sin. That is, Adam and Eve choosing not to trust God's all-wise instruction regarding the tree of knowledge, instead substituting their own imperfect choice.

Locker wrote:So do you think this immaturity - the beast within - spread as a result of the first sin mentioned here in Genesis?

I'll admit it's hard for me to visual what exactly spreads in regards to original sin being transmitted from generation to generation. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one and others like the three of you are trying to figure it out. From an immaturity perspective, we know this much about kids:

physical development -- immature
intellectual development -- immature
emotional development -- immature
spiritual development -- ????

Is there a way for spiritual development to be mature from the beginning? What Original Sin doctrines seem to imply is that if it were not for the one mistake in the Garden of Eden, there would be 3 types of immaturity and then 1 amazing type of full maturity. I admit it's difficult for me to visualize what this type of full spiritual maturity from the get go in a kid would look like versus plain old immaturity.

Or, BW, maybe here's another way to look at it, since you mentioned your kid at the store. You as the father, what aspect of the mistakes of your kid(s) do you forgive as immaturity? What should be held against them? Because I think whatever you as a lowly and imperfect father on earth are able discern as forgiveable and correctible immaturity, the divine God of all creation is able to see likewise.

Perhaps we need more Scriptural passages in this discussion.

Yes, here are some verses, and a few more thoughts. Now, we talk about original sin, and we tend to think about ourselves and Adam, about people, but we should also take a look at the bigger picture. How did that serpent in the garden get the sly idea to tempt Eve? This isn't right up front in Genesis, it's deeper in the Bible, but there's also this:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

That's always read to me as a chunk of back story. How did this son of the morning come to fall from heaven? How did this pride of his to "ascend" and "exalt" his throne get in his heart?

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

How did Satan become sinful and how did angels fall from their station to become sinful? Satan isn't going around creating angels, he's not God, but angels followed him in deceptions. How far back does the Origin of sin actually go and where does it really come from?

Cook wrote:Yes, here are some verses, and a few more thoughts. Now, we talk about original sin, and we tend to think about ourselves and Adam, about people, but we should also take a look at the bigger picture. How did that serpent in the garden get the sly idea to tempt Eve?

Well the Bible does tell us that the serpent was more shrewd than all of the other beasts of the field.

This isn't right up front in Genesis, it's deeper in the Bible, but there's also this:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

That's always read to me as a chunk of back story. How did this son of the morning come to fall from heaven? How did this pride of his to "ascend" and "exalt" his throne get in his heart?

That reads to me like a description of the king of Babylon:

Isaiah 14:
4 you will taunt the king of Babylon with these words: “Look how the oppressor has met his end! Hostility has ceased!

The rest of these words are talking about the king of Babylon. I don't think that this has anything to do with Genesis 3.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

How did Satan become sinful and how did angels fall from their station to become sinful? Satan isn't going around creating angels, he's not God, but angels followed him in deceptions.

That passage from Revelation 12 doesn't speak of things which happened prior to Genesis 3, it speaks of events which were still future to the time of the apostle John.

How far back does the Origin of sin actually go and where does it really come from?

It goes back to Genesis 3, and it came from the sin of Adam and Eve, subsequent to Eve's temptation by the serpent.

I find it interesting that the official 'God And Science' position is that humans are not held guilty for the sin of Adam and Eve.

Wow, they're also Arminians.

Hell is the Bad Place. Don't go there. 'Nuff said.

Cook wrote:Yes, here are some verses, and a few more thoughts. Now, we talk about original sin, and we tend to think about ourselves and Adam, about people, but we should also take a look at the bigger picture. How did that serpent in the garden get the sly idea to tempt Eve? This isn't right up front in Genesis, it's deeper in the Bible, but there's also this:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

That's always read to me as a chunk of back story. How did this son of the morning come to fall from heaven? How did this pride of his to "ascend" and "exalt" his throne get in his heart?

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

How did Satan become sinful and how did angels fall from their station to become sinful? Satan isn't going around creating angels, he's not God, but angels followed him in deceptions. How far back does the Origin of sin actually go and where does it really come from?

Yes - great point - How did He become sinful and where did it begin? B. W. hinted at this earlier.

This is a great mystery can we ever really know??

As for sin spreading to Humanity thru Adam and Eve onto the rest of us what would be the best termonolgy to use to describe it so we can use it in this discusion?

Next - Yes, everyone can use bible verses - and please do!

Fortigurn wrote:

Cook wrote:Yes, here are some verses, and a few more thoughts. Now, we talk about original sin, and we tend to think about ourselves and Adam, about people, but we should also take a look at the bigger picture. How did that serpent in the garden get the sly idea to tempt Eve?

Well the Bible does tell us that the serpent was more shrewd than all of the other beasts of the field.

The serpent may be more shrewd than all of the other beasts of the field, but shrewdness can be for God or against God. For instance, Jesus can be seen as teaching this same shrewdness -- only for God, instead of against -- in telling his followers to be "wise as serpents, yet harmless as doves." If the serpent of the Garden was shrewd in arguing against God's instruction, it was a harmful shrewdness. My difficulty is in seeing why this is acceptable to God, and not sinful in nature. If the serpent shrewdness was unacceptable to God, where did it originate?

Fortigurn wrote:

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

How did Satan become sinful and how did angels fall from their station to become sinful? Satan isn't going around creating angels, he's not God, but angels followed him in deceptions.

That passage from Revelation 12 doesn't speak of things which happened prior to Genesis 3, it speaks of events which were still future to the time of the apostle John.

How far back does the Origin of sin actually go and where does it really come from?

It goes back to Genesis 3, and it came from the sin of Adam and Eve, subsequent to Eve's temptation by the serpent.

Do you think that sin spread from Adam and Eve not just downwards to all subsequent generations but upwards to Satan and angels? I didn't mean to worry so much about timelines, but to pick verses that show Satan cast from heaven, and other angels as well. How did sin spread to them, and do you know of scripture that helps trace this out? We so often blame the devil for problems but are you saying it is people that owe him an apology instead?!?!

Again, not losing sight of the bigger picture though, what I am trying to get at, like everyone else, is what is the origin and nature of sin. Especially from a God's-eye-view, an understanding of the origin and nature leading to an understanding toward how God treats those who are sinful (salvation/death).

I like how we are trying to explore the idea of original sin as new explorers. Thanks for all replies so far, an interesting discussion.

Locker, I don't know if I have the terminology just yet. I guess patience is needed.

Cook wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

Cook wrote:Yes, here are some verses, and a few more thoughts. Now, we talk about original sin, and we tend to think about ourselves and Adam, about people, but we should also take a look at the bigger picture. How did that serpent in the garden get the sly idea to tempt Eve?

Well the Bible does tell us that the serpent was more shrewd than all of the other beasts of the field.

The serpent may be more shrewd than all of the other beasts of the field, but shrewdness can be for God or against God. For instance, Jesus can be seen as teaching this same shrewdness -- only for God, instead of against -- in telling his followers to be "wise as serpents, yet harmless as doves." If the serpent of the Garden was shrewd in arguing against God's instruction, it was a harmful shrewdness.

It was a shrewdness which led to harm.

My difficulty is in seeing why this is acceptable to God, and not sinful in nature. If the serpent shrewdness was unacceptable to God, where did it originate?

The serpent was made by God, so all it had was the way it had been created.

Do you think that sin spread from Adam and Eve not just downwards to all subsequent generations but upwards to Satan and angels?

No.

I didn't mean to worry so much about timelines, but to pick verses that show Satan cast from heaven, and other angels as well. How did sin spread to them, and do you know of scripture that helps trace this out? We so often blame the devil for problems but are you saying it is people that owe him an apology instead?!?!

I don't believe that angels can sin. I don't believe in satan as a 'fallen angel', and I don't believe in 'fallen angels'.

Again, not losing sight of the bigger picture though, what I am trying to get at, like everyone else, is what is the origin and nature of sin. Especially from a God's-eye-view, an understanding of the origin and nature leading to an understanding toward how God treats those who are sinful (salvation/death).

I think it's all there in Genesis 3. The consequences are described in Romans 5-7.

Ah, and yet, my viewpoint remains with the exact same unresolved questions still. Perhaps this demarcates difference in mindsets or beliefs that are inevitable when random people talk about subjects like this (and which, in my experience with forums, is not so likely to budge). In light of my words about good and bad shrewdness, your reply that shrewdness led to harm seems to imply to me that you see the shrewdness itself as the agent of harm. But I think it is how shrewdness is used that leads to harm. The intent of the serpent could have been to tell Eve shrewdly that she should only do what God said. But the intent of the serpent was contrary to God. This is how I see it. And I am left with the question still of how did the contrary intent get in the serpent so it would use its attribute of shrewdness counter to God's plan. I understand that you do not seem to see similarly and so you may not be able to assist me. I'm asking you and anyone else who may read. Your post already is well-taken of course as one stance to have in the matter.

You say that you do not believe angels are capable of sin or falling. I read the scripture I've quoted already as saying that there are angels who fall, and so while the questions about the origin of their sin is moot for you, I'm still left with my questions personally. But let us look at the common ground instead. I didn't say Satan was a fallen angel and do not think so either, or even that this is important for the topic. We can agree Satan exists, yes? What is topical regarding the nature and origin of sin is what is your take on the origin of Satan's evil?

Thank you.

Yes, this does pose an interesting beginning — How sin came into being through the serpent and why God allowed this to happen.

I do have scriptures as to why but choose to hold these back for the time being.

Could it be that God's perfect Justice permits his creatures of renown to have an ability to reason and think own their own so that God is not the author of sin?

Could it be, that this justice also will not deny even the most wicked the right to exist?

Could God give life as a gift and leave the gift up to the recipient on how they chose to use this gift?

Would it be just for God to blast the wicked off into non-existence or grant them a place they like, a place without God — banished from God. Would this be in accord with perfect Justice?

Interesting????
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B. W. wrote:Yes, this does pose an interesting beginning — How sin came into being through the serpent and why God allowed this to happen.

I do have scriptures as to why but choose to hold these back for the time being.

Could it be that God's perfect Justice permits his creatures of renown to have an ability to reason and think own their own so that God is not the author of sin?

Yes, I can see it that way. Sin is the direct consequence of free will. Without the will to sin, there can be no will to choose God. Without the will to choose or reject God, there can be no judgement. They could all be interrelated.

B.W. wrote:Could it be, that this justice also will not deny even the most wicked the right to exist?

Could God give life as a gift and leave the gift up to the recipient on how they chose to use this gift?

Neat, and very possible.

B.W. wrote:Would it be just for God to blast the wicked off into non-existence or grant them a place they like, a place without God — banished from God. Would this be in accord with perfect Justice?

Interesting????
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Indeed.

Do I detect an inclination towards Universalism?

Fortigurn wrote:Do I detect an inclination towards Universalism?

Not from me

This is an open discussion so please feel free to join in.