God's omniscience vs free-will

[LowlyOne]

PL wrote

Point #3: The "world" does not mean every single individual, as such an interpretation would cause huge problem (such as in 2 Cor 5:19, which would teach universal salvation).

Only a person who goes to extremes with emphasizing God's Sovereignty to the point that it interferes with the rest of his unchanging nature and character would come to this conclusion. Is not God free to love the World, even every creature to which he desires the gospel to be preached to? If the world does not mean every single person, then why doesn't it just say God so loved "some" or "elect" etc? I guess the word "world" doesn't mean every single individual in these passages either:

Act 17:31 - ...because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Rom 3:19 - Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

More examples could be given.

[FFC]

PL wrote

Point #3: The "world" does not mean every single individual, as such an interpretation would cause huge problem (such as in 2 Cor 5:19, which would teach universal salvation).

Only a person who goes to extremes with emphasizing God's Sovereignty to the point that it interferes with the rest of his unchanging nature and character would come to this conclusion. Is not God free to love the World, even every creature to which he desires the gospel to be preached to? If the world does not mean every single person, then why doesn't it just say God so loved "some" or "elect" etc? I guess the word "world" doesn't mean every single individual in these passages either:

Act 17:31 - ...because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Rom 3:19 - Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Rev 3:10 - Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Much more examples could be given.

Thank you, Lowly one. God is a big God. I don't know why people can't believe that He can be sovereign and allow us to have free will at the same time. wasn't Adam and Eve given a choice to eat from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil? Or was it just a vehicle to introduce sin into a world that had no choice in the matter? If so it was the greatest act of cruelity ever performed in order for an insecure and egotistical deity to get praise and Glory for himself. As Paul would say "God forbid!"

[Byblos]

God is a big God. I don't know why people can't believe that He can be sovereign and allow us to have free will at the same time. wasn't Adam and Eve given a choice to eat from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil? Or was it just a vehicle to introduce sin into a world that had no choice in the matter? If so it was the greatest act of cruelity ever performed in order for an insecure and egotistical deity to get praise and Glory for himself. As Paul would say "God forbid!"

AMEN!

[August]

Firstly, I do not like getting invloved in discussions of this type, since it normally leads to very passionate discourse, and sometimes degrading of Christian brothers and sisters. I was myself guilty of that in the past, and won't allow it to happen again.

I think that you are all missing quite what PL is saying. He is not denying free will. What he is saying is that while we have free will, that will is subject to one of two things, either a sinful or a godly nature. There is no neutral middle ground, some "sinful yet godly" condition. The decisions we make with our free will are subject to either one, to the detrement or glory of God respectively. When we discuss free will, the key question is: Free from what? The answer I think that many of you would give here is: Free from external influences or coersion.

If we assert that there is some neutral middle ground, then we have to account for that condition Scripturally, that there is something in our nature which allows us to, out of our own strength, necessarily seek the kingdom of God. Unfortunately I probably have not looked hard enough in the Bible to see where a neutral will and libertarian freedom of choice is used to describe natural man. Jesus said that good trees produce good fruit, and bad trees produce bad fruit. There were no trees that had both good and bad fruit.

The wonder of our free will is that we have a choice in how we respond to the gospel call and the prompting of the Holy Spirit, something we see practically quite often here on this very board. It is, however, impossible for someone to respond to the gospel unless he has first heard it.

In Romans 10 we have a beautiful description of this process:

(Rom 10:9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
(Rom 10:12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
(Rom 10:13) For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
(Rom 10:14) But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
(Rom 10:15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
(Rom 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
(Rom 10:17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

As Christians, it is our duty to spread the gospel so that others may have faith, so that they will make a choice. No-one can make a positive choice without the Holy Spirit playing a role in that decision. We, as preachers of the gospel, do not know who and when the Holy Spirit will prompt, we can only do what we are told and spread the gospel. Someone may hear it today and be prompted 10 years later. Some may hear it and react positively right away, but, according to the parable of the sower, will fall away. All of that happens in a supernatural realm, over which we have no control except the initial sowing of the seed.

In summary, the faith we get from the hearing of the gospel is a choice we make based on the changing action of the Holy Spirit to our very deepest desires.

[FFC]

I think that you are all missing quite what PL is saying. He is not denying free will.

I don't think we are very far off, August. He is denying free will because in his view it is not compatible with God's soveriegnty. As I sincerely told him though, He does make good points from the bible...however my problem ultimately is that that view as a whole does not utilize the whole of who God is in all His unchanging and Holy attributes. Yours on the other hand does...or at least they seem to.

[puritan lad]

I think that you are all missing quite what PL is saying. He is not denying free will.

I don't think we are very far off, August. He is denying free will because in his view it is not compatible with God's soveriegnty. As I sincerely told him though, He does make good points from the bible...however my problem ultimately is that that view as a whole does not utilize the whole of who God is in all His unchanging and Holy attributes. Yours on the other hand does...or at least they seem to.

I am not denying free will (though I do not like the term, since it causes confusion to the truth). The Puritan "Westminster Confession" has a whole chapter on Free Will. We just deny that our wills are totally free, or that our free wills can profit us anything in terms of salvation. Our free wills make us guilty. We are free to sin. We are "voluntary slaves" as Calvin put it, but slaves to sin none the less.

The Scriptures are clear, one must born of the Spirit before he can even see the Kingdom of God, let alone choose it. No man can come to Him unless the Father has enabled him.

The elect angels are predestined to serve God for eternity, yet they do so willingly. Satan us predestined to destruction, yet that which he does he does willingly. Free will is limited, meaning that we serve sin not by compulsion, but willingly, following our own lusts and desires.

As far as the atonement goes, the Bible is still very clear. God has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. Jesus Christ did not come to offer salvation, but to save. He "with His own blood, secured eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12). I ask again, who did Christ secure eternal redemption for? Everyone, ot the elect?

Free will, as defined by Arminians and Pelagians, is a myth. It cannot be supported by Scripture.

[August]

I think that you are all missing quite what PL is saying. He is not denying free will.

I don't think we are very far off, August. He is denying free will because in his view it is not compatible with God's soveriegnty. As I sincerely told him though, He does make good points from the bible...however my problem ultimately is that that view as a whole does not utilize the whole of who God is in all His unchanging and Holy attributes. Yours on the other hand does...or at least they seem to.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but my view is not different to PL's, probably just presented in a different way. I cannot find libertarian free will anywhere in Scripture, when freedom is spoken about, it is freedom from the bondage of sin.

What do you see as the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation? At what point does it start to play a role, bearing in mind what I wrote earlier about the effects of the gospel?

EDIT: One other thing I want to ask, does having freedom of the will have any bearing on our ability to do what we will? For example, I can choose to jump to the moon. I can really, really, really want to do that, but I will never have the ability. I think we should distinguish between wanting to do something, and having the ability to do something. As we saw in the parable of the sower, some people there also really heard the word, and at that moment chose to accept it, yet they fell away. We also read that it was not due to their lack of will, it was due to a lack of ability to resist evil or the things of the world.

[puritan lad]

In addition to August's example, consider that Esau sought God with tears, but was rejected. (Hebrews 12:16-17)

[FFC]

I ask again, who did Christ secure eternal redemption for? Everyone, ot the elect?

Yes, all who call upon his name. Believe in him. Receive him....etc. These are all choices. I suppose you could say that the elect are all those who respond to the call and believe that Jesus dies on the cross to take away their sins.

The call to make a free choice is all through the scriptures. Believe and not perish, receive and become a child of God, Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. You and August both say you don't see libertarian free will anywhere in the scriptures. I don't know what to say to that. You say that regeneration precedes belief....I don't see that either.

I really am open to be proven wrong but so far I'm not persuaded.

[B. W.]

I ask again, who did Christ secure eternal redemption for? Everyone, ot the elect?

Yes, all who call upon his name. Believe in him. Receive him....etc. These are all choices. I suppose you could say that the elect are all those who respond to the call and believe that Jesus dies on the cross to take away their sins.

The call to make a free choice is all through the scriptures. Believe and not perish, receive and become a child of God, Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. You and August both say you don't see libertarian free will anywhere in the scriptures. I don't know what to say to that. You say that regeneration precedes belief....I don't see that either.

I really am open to be proven wrong but so far I'm not persuaded.

When I was a kid, I loved playing Rock'em Sock'em Robots. Blue verses red. I always chose the red robot. Bam slam pop goes the head! Great fun! The Calvinist — Armenian debate reminds of these two robots going after each other each time I read the two sides. Slam — pow! Off goes some ones head till next round.

Here are some points to consider.

Proverbs 16:4 is often misquoted to support something contrary to scripture. It states, “The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for punishment,” NLT.

Other translations use the word evil, doom, calamity instead of punishment. It does not matter what English word is used the idea is that God uses the wicked in a day of punishment, evil, doom, calamity. This passage does not imply that God makes the wicked to be punished, doomed, or evil. That line of thought is contrary to the bible and what it teaches.

Instead it tells us that God uses the wicked to punish the proud, the wicked, and even the righteous when they stray. Note Proverbs 16:5, “The LORD despises pride; be assured that the proud will be punished.”

The wicked are used by God to issue forth punishment is what the Bible says. This is backed up in the bible — Deuteronomy 7:9-10, Deuteronomy 8:17-20. The testimony of God's dealing with ancient Israel also bears witness to this fact.

When Proverbs 16:4 is misquoted to support the view that God picks a person out to be wicked so they can be punished violates Ezekiel 18:23-32. That interpretation also mocks the best potter and clay story in the bible found in Jeremiah 18:2-10:

“Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

“Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.” NKJV

The vessel was marred by the hand of the potter. The picture is this; the clay began to wobble and collapsed back onto the spinning wheel. This is what marred suggest. What is being said here is what is being said, “so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make… The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.”

In other words, God can change the design and make us as He wills dependant upon what?

God does not need to be a divine Puppeteer. He can simply speak. God is reasonable and understands the nature of the clay He has made for the wheel. Ask a potter or try a potter's wheel yourself. Clay has a mind of its own they'll tell you. It wants to remain in a clump, soak up all the good water, and do nothing as well as collapses on the wheel. You must have power over the clay to shape it, if not, it remains a useless clump.

God speaks, we can respond because God speaks. What does Jeremiah 18:11-12 reveal? God is definitely not a salve to the whimsical choices of humanity but He still offers a return — a return to service to Him, nevertheless. Why tell someone they can repent but not mean it, if they cannot but rather made not to repent?

The message of the Potter and clay is not blind selection. It is shaping the clay for service. God foresaw how sin entered the world and made the clay filthy. God knows what is now in the clay: pride, fear, lust, all manner of sin that turns one away from serving God. Therefore, He designed the clay to be shaped by His word, what He speaks, declares, ask, so it can be of service to Him again, however He pleases.

God ask us to return to Him. God knows our answer before we do and therefore shapes the clay. Will the clay remain marred or of un-tempered clay, or will it be refashioned and purified by the kiln's fire? God only knows.

How we respond to God's call to service is our own responsibility, not God's. This is where the heart of this debate resides. If you say what I stated, you are pounced on as making "God out to be a poor helpless being who sits on some distant throne hoping that His people will use their "free will" and let Him save them" and thus miss the point entirely.

Rock'em and Sock'em keep on boppin. I personally dislike the phrase Free Will but am forced to use it as that is the term what so often used. Our response is not based on Free Will but rather on God's calling to us. He designed us for service. He is calling us back. He designed us to be in His image, with the ability to think, reason, decide, and even relent as He does. Please do not forget this. The gifts and callings of God are without what?

God made us from the earth, clay and breathed His breath of life into Adam. He made the first clay pure in service to God tending and keeping Eden. The clay of the heart became defiled through the temptation. Now our heart's ability to think, reason, decide, and even relent has become filthy in service to self. None would serve God again, unless God designed the clay to respond to His hand.

The clay was designed to respond to God's call, His word, with the liberty to remain either a useless lump of dirty clay or to become a vessel, servant of God as originally designed with the kinks and filth removed by the fire of God's kiln on this earth.

That is how the clay was made, to respond to the master potter's hand — the hand of His word. Therefore, He can shape us for His good pleasure as He wills and He Himself remains pure and not the author of sin.

Isaiah 46:10-13 tells us to listen to God? Why if He designed the wicked to doom?
Psalms 115 tells us to trust and fear the Lord? Why, if one cannot?
Daniel 4:34-37 reveals that God can do what He pleases to restore a lost soul — note verse 37.
Psalm 33:8-22 Tells us God speaks. How can anyone Hope, Revere, and Love God if they could not respond to what God speaks and reveals about Himself to make His plan known?
Proverbs 21:1-3The Lord weighs the heart. Interesting…No wonder He can direct our steps Psalms 37:23-24, Proverbs 20:24-27, God foreknew us before we were ever born and places us where we need to be. He leads us how? Psalms32:8-9, Isaiah 30:20-22

Psalm 139:1-16How is one ordained fashioned by God? He searched and knows all our ways before we were yet born. He knows who can be of service to Him and who refuses this service, yet, lets us still decide. In the light of Ezekiel 18:23-32 and Jeremiah 18:2-10 we can see that the justice and mercy of God can change and refine the clay. God calls, we respond.

We were simply made that way. God knows what really is in the clay, we do not. Such knowledge is too profound for us to fully fathom. We do have a certain amount of liberty granted by God that God still controls without the need of the arbitrary strings of selection. Instead, He speaks shapes and molds us for service. God ask, choose this day whom you will serve! You have a destiny — choose wisely.

When God called to nation to repent in the Old Testament; He called to everyone in that nation. He let them decide. That ability to decide is a gift from God; part of his image given to humanity. Likewise, He offers to everyone in the world to become born again, but not all will. He still ask and speaks pleading to those that will hear His truth. God cannot help but know who will and who will not. He still calls demonstrating how fair, just, and right God is to Himself and also to us John 18:37.

God knows who are His, will be His, and who can become His through His call of service and even what we'll do. Yet, we fight each other like Rock'em and Sock'em and the lost mock and laugh, others stumble and fall, still others justify themselves as doomed and never able to be saved. What a tragic shame! And I am just as guilty for this as anyone else! Therefore:

Jeremiah 10:23-24, “I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. Correct me, LORD, but only with justice not in your anger, lest you reduce me to nothing.” NIV
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[puritan lad]

B.W.,

Assuming that I have misquoted Proverbs 16:4 (and that's debatable), what will you do with the following?

...God creates “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” and “vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory”. (Romans 9:22-23)

...The Pharisees were appointed to be disobedient to the Word (1 Peter 2:8-9)

…certain men … long ago were marked out for condemnation (Jude 1:4)

I still haven't brought up Pharoah yet. He's the Calvinist's “trump card”.

Also, would you agree that God chose who would be saved from the beginning? If so, then what does that do to those who were not chosen. If they were not chosen for salvation, then they were necessarily chosen for destruction.

It was the Will of God that Judas betrayed Christ, the Jews plotted to kill Him, and that the Romans carried out their act, for all these did nothing but what the hand and counsel of God had decreed (Acts 4:28). This is affirmed by Peter, that Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23).

As I pointed out earlier, God's commandments to seek Him, Obey Him, etc. do not assume our ability to do so. God commanded Pharoah to let His People go, and then Hardened his heart, so that Pharoah would not harken to him. He could judge Egypt with great Judgements. Why? Because that was His purpose for Pharoah, that God could, through His judgment, make His power known.

God commanded the People of Israel not to commit incest, and then claimed Absalom's incest as His own work. (2 Samuel 12:12). God's commandments show our inability, rather than our ability to obey. He commands us to come to Him, and then tells us that no man can come to Him unless it is granted to him by the Father. He tells the church to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, and then immediately clarifies that “it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:11-13). These verses do not teach synergism, but rather that man can only be obedient to God through God's grace alone.

The commandments to seek God, Choose this day, etc. are an indictment against the wicked, not an assumption of human ability.

God Bless,

PL

[FFC]

I ask again, who did Christ secure eternal redemption for? Everyone, ot the elect?

Yes, all who call upon his name. Believe in him. Receive him....etc. These are all choices. I suppose you could say that the elect are all those who respond to the call and believe that Jesus dies on the cross to take away their sins.

The call to make a free choice is all through the scriptures. Believe and not perish, receive and become a child of God, Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. You and August both say you don't see libertarian free will anywhere in the scriptures. I don't know what to say to that. You say that regeneration precedes belief....I don't see that either.

I really am open to be proven wrong but so far I'm not persuaded.

When I was a kid, I loved playing Rock'em Sock'em Robots. Blue verses red. I always chose the red robot. Bam slam pop goes the head! Great fun! The Calvinist — Armenian debate reminds of these two robots going after each other each time I read the two sides. Slam — pow! Off goes some ones head till next round.

Here are some points to consider.

Proverbs 16:4 is often misquoted to support something contrary to scripture. It states, “The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for punishment,” NLT.

Other translations use the word evil, doom, calamity instead of punishment. It does not matter what English word is used the idea is that God uses the wicked in a day of punishment, evil, doom, calamity. This passage does not imply that God makes the wicked to be punished, doomed, or evil. That line of thought is contrary to the bible and what it teaches.

Instead it tells us that God uses the wicked to punish the proud, the wicked, and even the righteous when they stray. Note Proverbs 16:5, “The LORD despises pride; be assured that the proud will be punished.”

The wicked are used by God to issue forth punishment is what the Bible says. This is backed up in the bible — Deuteronomy 7:9-10, Deuteronomy 8:17-20. The testimony of God's dealing with ancient Israel also bears witness to this fact.

When Proverbs 16:4 is misquoted to support the view that God picks a person out to be wicked so they can be punished violates Ezekiel 18:23-32. That interpretation also mocks the best potter and clay story in the bible found in Jeremiah 18:2-10:

“Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

“Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.” NKJV

The vessel was marred by the hand of the potter. The picture is this; the clay began to wobble and collapsed back onto the spinning wheel. This is what marred suggest. What is being said here is what is being said, “so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make… The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.”

In other words, God can change the design and make us as He wills dependant upon what?

God does not need to be a divine Puppeteer. He can simply speak. God is reasonable and understands the nature of the clay He has made for the wheel. Ask a potter or try a potter's wheel yourself. Clay has a mind of its own they'll tell you. It wants to remain in a clump, soak up all the good water, and do nothing as well as collapses on the wheel. You must have power over the clay to shape it, if not, it remains a useless clump.

God speaks, we can respond because God speaks. What does Jeremiah 18:11-12 reveal? God is definitely not a salve to the whimsical choices of humanity but He still offers a return — a return to service to Him, nevertheless. Why tell someone they can repent but not mean it, if they cannot but rather made not to repent?

The message of the Potter and clay is not blind selection. It is shaping the clay for service. God foresaw how sin entered the world and made the clay filthy. God knows what is now in the clay: pride, fear, lust, all manner of sin that turns one away from serving God. Therefore, He designed the clay to be shaped by His word, what He speaks, declares, ask, so it can be of service to Him again, however He pleases.

God ask us to return to Him. God knows our answer before we do and therefore shapes the clay. Will the clay remain marred or of un-tempered clay, or will it be refashioned and purified by the kiln's fire? God only knows.

How we respond to God's call to service is our own responsibility, not God's. This is where the heart of this debate resides. If you say what I stated, you are pounced on as making "God out to be a poor helpless being who sits on some distant throne hoping that His people will use their "free will" and let Him save them" and thus miss the point entirely.

Rock'em and Sock'em keep on boppin. I personally dislike the phrase Free Will but am forced to use it as that is the term what so often used. Our response is not based on Free Will but rather on God's calling to us. He designed us for service. He is calling us back. He designed us to be in His image, with the ability to think, reason, decide, and even relent as He does. Please do not forget this. The gifts and callings of God are without what?

God made us from the earth, clay and breathed His breath of life into Adam. He made the first clay pure in service to God tending and keeping Eden. The clay of the heart became defiled through the temptation. Now our heart's ability to think, reason, decide, and even relent has become filthy in service to self. None would serve God again, unless God designed the clay to respond to His hand.

The clay was designed to respond to God's call, His word, with the liberty to remain either a useless lump of dirty clay or to become a vessel, servant of God as originally designed with the kinks and filth removed by the fire of God's kiln on this earth.

That is how the clay was made, to respond to the master potter's hand — the hand of His word. Therefore, He can shape us for His good pleasure as He wills and He Himself remains pure and not the author of sin.

Isaiah 46:10-13 tells us to listen to God? Why if He designed the wicked to doom?
Psalms 115 tells us to trust and fear the Lord? Why, if one cannot?
Daniel 4:34-37 reveals that God can do what He pleases to restore a lost soul — note verse 37.
Psalm 33:8-22 Tells us God speaks. How can anyone Hope, Revere, and Love God if they could not respond to what God speaks and reveals about Himself to make His plan known?
Proverbs 21:1-3The Lord weighs the heart. Interesting…No wonder He can direct our steps Psalms 37:23-24, Proverbs 20:24-27, God foreknew us before we were ever born and places us where we need to be. He leads us how? Psalms32:8-9, Isaiah 30:20-22

Psalm 139:1-16How is one ordained fashioned by God? He searched and knows all our ways before we were yet born. He knows who can be of service to Him and who refuses this service, yet, lets us still decide. In the light of Ezekiel 18:23-32 and Jeremiah 18:2-10 we can see that the justice and mercy of God can change and refine the clay. God calls, we respond.

We were simply made that way. God knows what really is in the clay, we do not. Such knowledge is too profound for us to fully fathom. We do have a certain amount of liberty granted by God that God still controls without the need of the arbitrary strings of selection. Instead, He speaks shapes and molds us for service. God ask, choose this day whom you will serve! You have a destiny — choose wisely.

When God called to nation to repent in the Old Testament; He called to everyone in that nation. He let them decide. That ability to decide is a gift from God; part of his image given to humanity. Likewise, He offers to everyone in the world to become born again, but not all will. He still ask and speaks pleading to those that will hear His truth. God cannot help but know who will and who will not. He still calls demonstrating how fair, just, and right God is to Himself and also to us John 18:37.

God knows who are His, will be His, and who can become His through His call of service and even what we'll do. Yet, we fight each other like Rock'em and Sock'em and the lost mock and laugh, others stumble and fall, still others justify themselves as doomed and never able to be saved. What a tragic shame! And I am just as guilty for this as anyone else! Therefore:

Jeremiah 10:23-24, “I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. Correct me, LORD, but only with justice not in your anger, lest you reduce me to nothing.” NIV
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Amen!

[B. W.]

B.W.,

Assuming that I have misquoted Proverbs 16:4 (and that’s debatable), what will you do with the following?

...God creates “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” and “vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory”. (Romans 9:22-23)

...The Pharisees were appointed to be disobedient to the Word (1 Peter 2:8-9)

…certain men … long ago were marked out for condemnation (Jude 1:4)

I still haven’t brought up Pharoah yet. He’s the Calvinist’s “trump card”.

Also, would you agree that God chose who would be saved from the beginning? If so, then what does that do to those who were not chosen. If they were not chosen for salvation, then they were necessarily chosen for destruction.

It was the Will of God that Judas betrayed Christ, the Jews plotted to kill Him, and that the Romans carried out their act, for all these did nothing but what the hand and counsel of God had decreed (Acts 4:28). This is affirmed by Peter, that Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23).

As I pointed out earlier, God's commandments to seek Him, Obey Him, etc. do not assume our ability to do so. God commanded Pharoah to let His People go, and then Hardened his heart, so that Pharoah would not harken to him. He could judge Egypt with great Judgements. Why? Because that was His purpose for Pharoah, that God could, through His judgment, make His power known.

God commanded the People of Israel not to commit incest, and then claimed Absalom’s incest as His own work. (2 Samuel 12:12). God’s commandments show our inability, rather than our ability to obey. He commands us to come to Him, and then tells us that no man can come to Him unless it is granted to him by the Father. He tells the church to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, and then immediately clarifies that “it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:11-13). These verses do not teach synergism, but rather that man can only be obedient to God through God’s grace alone.

The commandments to seek God, Choose this day, etc. are an indictment against the wicked, not an assumption of human ability.

God Bless,

PL

First off, I have no debate in God creating vessels of wrath or fashioning the wicked to be instruments of his. God is sovereign - he has this right. Question is, how does he fashion?

Is it based on arbitrary selection or a foreknowing selection? Foreknowing selection is not based on human free will but rather God calls to us to serve him. It is because God choose to call that we now can decide to answer his call or not - all in accordance to God-s nature and character. Without God-s calling us to repent, etc...no one could or would choose God. Now that there is a call, God foresaw its need, he knows all things even who will hear and accept as well as knows who will reject. Those that reject, he can make and use as he wills. The bible teaches this. There is no issue here.

Now, are we puppets on a string and everything we do is caused by God? When the bible declares that God directs our steps you should ask and explore how does he direct and what is he directing us too? The answer is found in context of scriptures. God directs our steps toward repentance. The goodness of God lead us toward repentance. Peter in the book of Acts tells us to repent.

Jeremiah 10:23-24 reveals this in verse 24 in context. Now if you believe that this is not so and that God is a divine puppeteer then you have proved the Bible in error and false as well as contradicting itself.

How, Galatians 6:7-8 -What ever a man sows, that he shall also reap. Should read according to what I am hearing you say;Whatever God sows, man shall reap.

PL, is your faith in the Lord or the doctrine of Westminster?

No one is claiming that God cannot do with us as He wills. Also note the context and theme of scriptures. Do a personal study on God-s nature and character. We were created as a lower reflection of this - God is wise, he has knowledge, he can repent - likewise so can we. To be all powerful is to be all powerful and use the attributes found in man/women as He wills.

James 3:13-18 -Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. NKJV

What I discover is this - certain doctrines from men cause such strife and confusion and pride that its source is obvious. The goodness of God leads to repentance, again, I ask is your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or the doctrine of Westminster?
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[puritan lad]

First off, I have no debate in God creating vessels of wrath or fashioning the wicked to be instruments of his. God is sovereign - he has this right. Question is, how does he fashion?

Is it based on arbitrary selection or a foreknowing selection?

Interesting Question. The Bible never answers it. We are not told what the basis is for our election. We are only told what isn't the basis for our election, and that is our own works, will, choice, etc.

Foreknowing selection is not based on human free will but rather God calls to us to serve him. It is because God choose to call that we now can decide to answer his call or not - all in accordance to God-s nature and character. Without God-s calling us to repent, etc...no one could or would choose God. Now that there is a call, God foresaw its need, he knows all things even who will hear and accept as well as knows who will reject. Those that reject, he can make and use as he wills. The bible teaches this. There is no issue here.

For the Scriptural truth about foreknowledge, check out The Foreknowledge of God.
As far as God's call goesm Paul gives the correct view...

Romans 8:30
"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

God's grace cannot fail.

Now, are we puppets on a string and everything we do is caused by God? When the bible declares that God directs our steps you should ask and explore how does he direct and what is he directing us too? The answer is found in context of scriptures. God directs our steps toward repentance. The goodness of God lead us toward repentance. Peter in the book of Acts tells us to repent.

No one said that we are puppets on a string, but yes, God as decreed everything we do, as I have shown from a multitude of Scriptures.

I agree that we should repent. I've never suggested otherwise.

PL, is your faith in the Lord or the doctrine of Westminster?

B.W. You should know better than this. My faith is in the Lord of the Scriptures. In fact, I don't think I've ever even quoted the Westminster COnfession on this board.

But I believe the Westminster is correct...

[LowlyOne]

Gregory Boyd's commentary on specific passages:

Proverbs 16:4

“The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.”

Compatiblists often cite this verse to support the conclusion that some people are created wicked for the expressed purpose of being sent to hell. Since Scripture teaches that God is love (1 John 4:8, 16), that God loves all people (John 3:16) and thus does not willing afflict anyone (Lam. 3:33) or will their damnation (Ezek. 18:30—32; 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9), we should seek for a different interpretation.

An alternative interpretation is not difficult to find. Proverbs 16:4 is using the language of moral order. God set up creation such that good is (eventually) rewarded and evil (eventually) punished. In this sense the “purpose” for the wicked is found in the “day of trouble” that shall come upon them. It's significant to note that the verb translated in the NRSV as “made” (pâ'al) can be translated as “works out” (as in the NIV), an observation that confirms our interpretation. God steers the wickedness of agents so that their end eventually fits the moral order of creation. Moreover, the word translated as “purpose” (ma' neh) can be translated as “answer.”*

The meaning of the passage, then, is that God works things out so that the end of the wicked “answers” their wickedness. They eventually reap what they sow. We thus need not entertain the gruesome prospect of God creating people for the expressed purpose of having them suffer endlessly.

Note

* See D. Clines, “Predestination in the Old Testament,” in Grace Unlimited, ed. C. Pinnock (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 1975), 122.