Coelacanth: Fish defying the ages, a challenge to evolution

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Jbuza
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Post by Jbuza »

Yehren wrote:
Since [bacteria] reproduce themselves, in favourable conditions, every twenty minutes, they might be expected to evolve faster than any other organism
That's what we see. They evolve much faster than eukaryotes in general and metazoans in particular. Most of the evidence for evolution of new features, irreducible compexity, etc. has been through bacteria. They have much, much more diversity than other forms of life.
-- but fossil bacteria going back three and a half billion years, to the threshold of life itself, have been recovered and are virtually identical with modern forms."
Well, they are shaped something similar (although there are many modern bacteria that look nothing like any fossil bacteria. But bacteria vary biochemically, since they are single celled organisms. (for the most part; some modern forms are essentially multicellular)

As evolutionary theory predicts, evolution moves much faster in bacteria than in humans.
It is nonsense. Explain everything by making still empty claims. Show the mechanisms to be true than lets talk.

Did you even say anyhting about Why bacteria today resembles bacteria from strata supposed to be billions of years old? IF the bacteria evolved it shouldn't resemble what it evolved from.
Jbuza
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Post by Jbuza »

Yehren wrote: 3. Show the fossil of a mammal in undisturbed Cambrian deposits.
Now you have me there. Since mammals are a sort of index fossil, any formation that contains mammals would not be considered Cambrian.

Why didn't all these animal forms in cambrian layers simply rot while they were laying on the surface waiting to be covered by geological time. LOL Sorry ROTFL. REally ha ha. oops!
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Yehren
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Post by Yehren »

It is nonsense. Explain everything by making still empty claims.
No, it's a fact. For example, the first directly-observed instance of an irreducibly complex system evolving was in bacteria. The first instance of an organism developing the ability to digest a synthetic plastic was in bacteria. Would you like to learn about them?
Show the mechanisms to be true than lets talk.

Did you even say anyhting about Why bacteria today resembles bacteria from strata supposed to be billions of years old?
Yep. It turns out that a rounded shape is optimum for most cells, in the absence of any required morphology. However, as I mentioned, modern bacteria often have shapes not like any ancient ones.
IF the bacteria evolved it shouldn't resemble what it evolved from.
Why not? Evolutionary theory says that it should. Bacterial compete mostly by biochemical adaptations. That's where it all happens for them. Vertebrates tend to have fewer biochemical adaptations, and more morphological ones. For obvious reasons.

Fact remains, bacteria evolve much more rapidly than vertebrates, as the theory predicts.
Jbuza
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Post by Jbuza »

Yehren wrote: For example, the first directly-observed instance of an irreducibly complex system evolving was in bacteria.
If it evolved then it wasn't irreducibly complex. What did it evolve from? Let me guess from a bacteria. or did it evolve from nothing? IF it evolved from nothing I am interested. Did you observe this?
[/quote]

Yehren wrote: Fact remains, bacteria evolve much more rapidly than vertebrates, as the theory predicts.
I know your right because I was cooking a chicken tonight, and I think I got some bacteria on the counter and a bit later I saw an ant crawling away.

And in response to your assertation that evolution explains why basteria looks like "ancient" bacteria. That is funny because it seems like you are telling me evolution explains why organisms ramain the same and evolution explains why organisms change. It is all empty claims. You are telling me the things that can evolve the fastest change the least, and the things that evolve slowly change the most. Why don't these fast evolving bacteria behave more like the bacteria from my supper and crawl away?
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Yehren
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Post by Yehren »

For example, the first directly-observed instance of an irreducibly complex system evolving was in bacteria.
If it evolved then it wasn't irreducibly complex. What did it evolve from? Let me guess from a bacteria.
Bacterium. Singular is "bacterium." Yep. As you know, they evolve a great deal faster than other organisms, because their generation times are so short.

However, the new enzyme system was irreducibly complex by Behe's own definition. A new regulator (which prevents enzyme production unless a substrate is present) evolved, which meant that substrate, enzyme, and regulator all had to be present for the system to work. Even one component missing meant that it would not work.
or did it evolve from nothing?
If it did, that would be a stunning refutation of evolutionary theory. Evolution always procedes by modifying something already there.
IF it evolved from nothing I am interested.
Sorry. Evolution doesn't work that way. I think you might be more effective against biology if you knew more about such theories.
Did you observe this?
Dr. Barry Hall observed it. Much to his surprise (he was working on something else) a regulator evolved in his bacteria.

Yehren observes:
Fact remains, bacteria evolve much more rapidly than vertebrates, as the theory predicts.
I know your right because I was cooking a chicken tonight, and I think I got some bacteria on the counter and a bit later I saw an ant crawling away.
As I said, I think you'd be more effective against biology if you knew more about it.
And in response to your assertation that evolution explains why basteria looks like "ancient" bacteria. That is funny because it seems like you are telling me evolution explains why organisms ramain the same and evolution explains why organisms change.
Right. It's quite testable. You are confusing stabilizing selection with disruptive or directional selection. Evolutionary theory says that natural selection will tend to increase the fitness of populations. But remember, fitness only counts in terms of environment. This means that if a population is well-fitted to an unchanging set of selective pressures, then natural selection will prevent evolution. So if a population of bacteria are at an optimum size and shape for their envirionment, they won't change much in appearance.
It is all empty claims.
See above. There's a lot more to learn before you get a good idea of what it's about.
You are telling me the things that can evolve the fastest change the least,
No. I'm saying that bacteria have changed very little in shape, but have changed rapidly in biochemistry. As noted above, we've seen remarkable changes in a very short time.
and the things that evolve slowly change the most.
Nope. Go back and read it again.
Why don't these fast evolving bacteria behave more like the bacteria from my supper and crawl away?
Read it again, carefully, and I think you'll understand.
Jbuza
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Post by Jbuza »

I'm not against biology, What makes you think I want to be effective against biology? ARe you saying that Evolution is biology?
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BGoodForGoodSake
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Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

Jbuza wrote:I'm not against biology, What makes you think I want to be effective against biology? ARe you saying that Evolution is biology?
Studies of organisms have shown that a population is made up of individuals which posess a startling variety of traits.

It has also been discovered that new traits are introduced through mutations.

It is this variety in traits which allows a population to adapt to new conditions.

The study of life also encompasses the study of the adaptation and evolution of life.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Yehren
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Post by Yehren »

Barbarian suggests another test that would refute evolution.
3. Show the fossil of a mammal in undisturbed Cambrian deposits.
Since mammals are a sort of index fossil,
Nope. But if they were found with index fossils for the Cambrian, such as certain types of trilobites, evolutionary theory is in big trouble.
Why didn't all these animal forms in cambrian layers simply rot while they were laying on the surface waiting to be covered by geological time.
Most of them did. Even then, fossilization was a chancy thing. But now and then, some of them were buried quickly enough to preserve soft body parts.

The lake near where I live sets down a few inches of sediment a year in the back waters. That does a nice job of putting dead organisms into a stable, hypoxic envirionment.
LOL Sorry ROTFL. REally ha ha. oops!
As I said, if you learned more about it, you'd probably be more effective against it.
Jbuza
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Post by Jbuza »

AS I said I am not against biology. I have no desire to learn anymore about evolution. I have weighed the evidence for it, and couldn't find any. I care not what mechanisms work or how they do. I have seen phylogentic charts, geological epochs, lots of conjecture and speculation, but I have not seen any evidence that evolution is actually responsible for life. With lots of good things I can learn about I will not waste my time learning about garbage based on false assumptions.

I have been exposed to evolution long enough to know that it is a silly farse that has no basis to even claim the role of theory. It must have some evidence outside itself in order to be promoted above hypothesis.

So while you have all the answers in this laughingly complex theory they all rest on the evidenceless assumption that evolution happened.

I think you have taken your knowledge that the more people are exposed to evolution the more likely they are to believe it and come here to spread its cancer.

No thanks.
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Yehren
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Post by Yehren »

AS I said I am not against biology. I have no desire to learn anymore about evolution. I have weighed the evidence for it, and couldn't find any.
You would still benefit by knowing what it is, if only to try to refute it. You have a lot of misconceptions about the theory.
I care not what mechanisms work or how they do. I have seen phylogentic charts, geological epochs, lots of conjecture and speculation, but I have not seen any evidence that evolution is actually responsible for life.
Neither have I. Nor does evolutionary theory say that it is. That's what I mean when I say you would be more effective fighting biology if you knew more about it.
With lots of good things I can learn about I will not waste my time learning about garbage based on false assumptions.
I have been exposed to evolution long enough to know that it is a silly farse that has no basis to even claim the role of theory. It must have some evidence outside itself in order to be promoted above hypothesis.
Perhaps you don't know what an "hypothesis" is. Learn, and you will do better.
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