Evidence for God from Science

Good observation jac, but what of "look up, your redemption draws nigh" ?

I alway's took that to mean the rapture? I have been wrong once before though heh

Jac3510 wrote:Good, good . . . now, I assume that by "this could happen at any moment " you recognize the notion that the doctrine of imminence is, first and foremost, grounded in the notion that nothing else has to happen. Thus, by extension, we see that there can be no signs for Rapture.

There are signs for the second coming, so if we see those, we know the rapture has to be getting close, but that distinction is, and will be, of vital importance. That's the first big thing I want to make sure that you, and our readers, understand.

Secondly, I'm glad you brought up "this generation." It's the issue that separates me from many dispensationalists, so far as their "end time clock" goes. I'll detail my own view later, but for now, let me say that for my part I recognize that "this generation" has absolutely zero bearing on "a sign of the endtimes." Again, we'll flesh the idea out later, but I can't even see how it could!

Work, work, work . . . that's all I do these days ;)

Interesting. I'll say that you are definitely different from other dispensationalists. Are you OK with the idea that Jesus' Olivet Discourse was indeed fulfilled within that generation? If so, What kind of "signs" point to the Second Coming?

After that, I have several more tough questions, some of which you'll see in Dr. Gentry's Article.

IRQ wrote:Good observation jac, but what of "look up, your redemption draws nigh" ?

I alway's took that to mean the rapture?

The key idea here is redemption. We are NOT yet redeemed, even as we are justified. We are sealed unto redemption. When will that occur? Depending on which model you follow, it either occurs at the Bema seat or Second Coming. It will occur at the same time as the adoption as sons, when we receive our glorified body.

I don't take this as a direct reference to the rapture, other than to say that the two events are closely related. When we are raptured, we will stand before Christ and be judged. Following this, we will be redeemed, glorified, rewarded, and adopted. So, Paul is just saying to be ready, because the day draws near.

Puritan Lad wrote:Interesting. I'll say that you are definitely different from other dispensationalists.

Yes, but there are a growing number of us who hold the opinions I do. The dispensational system, of course, still needs refining. I'm actually partial to a four-dispensation system myself, rather than the standard seven . . . I'm definitely not ultra or even progressive.

Puritan Lad wrote:Are you OK with the idea that Jesus' Olivet Discourse was indeed fulfilled within that generation? If so, What kind of "signs" point to the Second Coming?

You really want to get me on that debate, don't you? I don't have the time to adequately respond to your exegesis, given my other workload. There is a lot there I'd like to respond to, though . . .

But, to BROADLY answer your question, I see the Olivet Discourse as typologically fulfilled in the first generation. I see the same thing in Dan 11, and a host of other passages. I see its perfect fulfillment . . . it's intended fulfillment . . . yet come. I really want to be careful here, because we'll end up in a debate over the law of double reference or multiple fulfillment.

So, again, broadly I'd say yes. But, I do not see it as truly fulfilled, and I believe we are to expect a complete fulfillment during the Tribulation, which I, as you know, equate with the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, also known as the Time of Jacob's Trouble. I don't see any reference to the Church in Matt. 24. It is a prophecy concerning the nation of Israel.

I think our biggest disagreement, besides double feference, is this generation. I see a technical use of the word in Matthew. You've accused me of not being literal with my understanding, but, hopefully, the forthcoming paper will explain it. For those who don't know, I take the phrase, in Matthew, to refer to the class of unbelieving people, regardless of time. Thus, "this generation" is still with us today. I soundly reject Lindsey's ideas (and those like of other Doomsdayers) that it refers to a specific generation, be it the 1948 generation, the generation of the rapture, or even the generation of Christ. This is actually a very literal understanding of the phrase, because it is taken as a figure of speech, which is entirely different from taking a literal phrase figuratively! I suppose I can walk through a defense of the argument if you'd like, but I still have to get to your ten points on the pretrib rapture. You also said you have other questions, and I'm sure you'll want to comment on the idea of double fulfillment.

I found a link to the original article mentioned: http://www.pre-trib.org/pdf/Ice-ABriefH ... fTheRa.pdf

As to your response to my arguments:

Jac3510 wrote:1. The Apostolic Fathers held to both the imminent return of Christ as well as a post-tribulational rapture theory. While these positions are self-contradictory, the fact that imminence was taught is very important, as it forms the irrefutable basis of pre-trib. rapture.

Puritan Lad wrote:Really? How so?

This is why I wanted to clarify the argument of imminence. We have no doubt that the Apostolic Fathers held to imminence, though not in the form I'm necessarily advocating. But, we know they believed that the coming of the Lord was immediately at hand. For instance, Crutchfield notes of Irenaeus:

• He seems to have believed that there would be an interval between the rapture of the saints and the final venting of the Antichrist's wrath upon earth. His reference to the church being “suddenly caught up” and to the Antichrist's “sudden coming” provide at least some (i.e., after ten kingdoms established and appearance of Antichrist) sense of imminency (Ag. Her. 5.29.1-2). While the evidence is not conclusive, it suggests at least the possibility that Irenaeus held to a remote/imminent, intratribulational rapture of the church

(See Larry V. Crutchfield, s.v. “Irenaeus” in Dictionary of Premillennial Theology, gen. ed. Mal Couch (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1996.) Also, a commonly cited example of imminence, and also an early, undeveloped form of pretribulationalism, is a quote from the Shepherd of Hermes, which says:

• You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.

Or, again, Thomas Ice states:

• Victorinus (d. A. D. 304), bishop of Petau, who wrote an early commentary on the book of Revelation. His explanation of Revelation 6:14 includes his belief that “the Church shall be taken away” at a point in the future when the passage under consideration will be fulfilled. Again, in Revelation 15:1 he says, “these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.” Here he speaks of something that will have happened previously, apparently looking back to his statement in Revelation 6:14. It is hard to know exactly what he means, but it could reflect elements of pretribulationism. This seems even more likely in light of the fact that Victorinus was said by the anti-Chiliast Jerome to have been a known premillennialist; yet his commentary was clearly amended in Revelation 20 to read as if he were Augustinian.

I highly recommend the linked article. For a full discussion of the doctrine of imminence, see Crutchfield, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation in the Apostolic Fathers, pp. 88-101.

Jac3150 wrote:2. A sermon preched by a man referred to as Pseudo-Ephraem in the fourth to sixth century AD, entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antchrist, and The End of the World, contains the following:
Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all of the world? . . . For all the saints of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

Puritan Lad wrote:See http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/deceived.html concerning Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards (#9).

First off, I doubt the general credibility of MacPherson. I googled him and found more than a bit of controversy surrounding the man. A review of his article I read, while not directly discounting his claims, casts doubts on the man himself. So, again, rather than taking his word for it, I'd like to see you lay out the arguments for yourself. A second and thirdreview go further in showing the deficiences in Dave's credibility.

With that, the argument against P-E seems pretty sound, although I have a couple of references I need to check out. The argument against M-E, to be honest, I had trouble following. The conclusion to the matter was as follows:

• In light of the fact that Edwards embraced historicism (which can see some future things yet to be fulfilled) and not pure futurism (which sees no past tribulational fulfillment), it's easy to believe that Edwards, like some other historicists of that period, saw a three-and-a-half-year period at the end of a 1260-year tribulation - the same percentage a futurist would have if he were to see a period of three and a half days at the end of a 1260-day tribulation; such a percentage would of course be a posttrib view!

Would you care to reword this in more clearly? I could, I suppose, google this and double check MacPherson's references, but time is obviously always an issue. In the meantime, see this article on Edwards that makes the point even stronger. John Bray, an anti-pretribulationlist, said concerning Edwards:

• It would be interesting to know what, in those early years at the Academy, led Edwards to his concept of a pre-tribulation rapture. One could almost think he had been studying at one of our modern dispensational-entrenched schools, the teaching is so similar to that which is being taught today.

The article aso has several interesting citations of Edwards himself from the essay Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties, including the following:

• Another event previous to the millennium will be the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself, and then withdraw with them, as observed before. [i.e., p. 7] This event will come to pass when Antichrist be arrived at Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a half before his killing the witnesses and assumption of godhead.

And also

• The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be, the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken up thither (about three years and a half before) . . . (p. 24)

Jac3150 wrote:3. It is believed that sects like the Albigenses, Lmbards, and the Waldenses were attracted to premillennialism . . . difficult to say much as the RCC (which was/is amill) destroyed their works whenever they found them.

Puritan Lad wrote: I didn't say that Darby invented premillennialism. I said he invented the Pre-trib rapture. Premillennialism has been around for a long time in different forms. It is Dispensationalism that is the new kid on the eschatological block.

This really gets at a major issue of this discussion. It is, of course, obvious that the Amillennialist and Postmillennialist cannot hold to a pretribulational rapture. In fact, there can be no "rapture" in that sense at all . . . the event is always to be equated with the Second Coming. Now, it is well known that the Church, for most of its history, has been amillennial. This proves nothing so far as the accuracy of that particular doctrine goes, because the Church has equally stood in almost universal support of the papacy! In fact, if we are going to use church history as the measure of truth, then we should absolutely reject the five Solas.

It is important, then, that premillennialism was not only the position of the Apostolic Church, but also that it persisted in spite of supression! Where there is pretribulationalism, there is imminence, and where there is imminence, there is the seed of the doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture. Concerning this "Seed" idea, Millard Erickson states:

• While there are in the writings of the early fathers seeds from which the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture could be developed, it is difficult to find in them an unequivocal statement of the type of imminency usually believed in by pretribulationists.

Crutchfield admits as much, saying that "[pretribulationists] do not say that the early fathers were pretribulationists in the modern sense, only that the seeds were indeed there." Further:

• With few exceptions, the premillennial fathers of the early church believed that they were living in the last times. Thus they looked daily for the Lord's return. Even most of those who looked for Antichrist's appearance prior to the second advent, saw that event as occurring suddenly, and just as suddenly being followed by the rescue and rapture of the saints… This belief in the imminent return of Jesus Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers: “imminent intratribulationism"

(Taken from Pseudo-Ephraim and the Didache: Weighing the Evidence by Charles Cooper)

Jac3510 wrote:4. Brother Dolcino (1304) held to a pretribulational rapture, according to Francis Gumerlock. "[Dolcino taught that he and his followers would] be preserved unharmed from the persecution of the Antichrist."

Puritan Lad wrote:Here is Gary DeMar's reply.

“Ice confronted me after our debate at BIOLA (February 2002) about Francis X. Gumerlock's statement in his The Day and the Hour (2000), a book published by American Vision and edited by me, that "The Dolcinites held to a pre-tribulation rapture theory similar to that of modern dispensationalism" (Day and the Hour, 80). If Ice wants to claim the Dolcinites as proto-dispensationalists, he can have them. Gumerlock quotes the Historia Fratris Dolcini Haeresiarchae in an end note (the English translation is Gumerlock's): "Again, [he believed, preached, and taught] that within the said three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist; and that the Antichrist himself would come into this world at the end of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, Dolcino himself, and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, where Enoch and Elijah are, and they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist; and then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend to earth to confront the Antichrist, then they would be killed by him; or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign again for many days. 'Once Antichrist is truly dead, Dolcino himself, who would then be the holy Pope, and his preserved followers will descend to earth, and they will preach the correct faith of Christ to all, and they will convert those, who will be alive then, to the true faith of Jesus Christ" (91—92).”

Ice is right. He sounds exactly like Hal Lindsey.

Yes, he does, but that doesn't negate the central claim, which is that the idea of a pretribulational rapture did NOT begin with Darby in the 19th century. In fact, we can further quote Gumerlock:

• Two things are fairly certain from The History of Brother Dolcino. First, Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren believed that the purpose of the rapture was related to the escape of the saints from the end-time tribulation and persecution of the Antichrist. Second, Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren believed that there would be a significant gap of time between the rapture of the saints to paradise and their subsequent descent to earth. Because of this The History of Brother Dolcino stands as yet another literary witness for the existence of pretribulationism before the nineteenth century. As such, it challenges evangelicals to reevaluate their thinking about the history of the pretribulational rapture, especially those views that place the origin of the teaching or its initial recovery within the last two hundred years. For this fourteenth-century text demonstrates that there were some in the Middle Ages who held a theology of the rapture that includes basic elements in pretribulationalism. (“A Rapture Citation,” p. 362)

Again, please keep in mind that Gumerlock is an anti-pretribulationist!

The fifth and sixth points are going to take more time than I have right now, but I'll get to them in the next few days.

Jac3510 wrote:7. Frank Marotta, not a pre-triber, believes that Thomas Collier in 1674 makes reference to a pretib rapture.

Puritan Lad wrote: Good for Frank. Did he provide any proof?

The particular reference, as noted by Ice, is found in Morgan Edwards: An Eighteenth Century Pretribulationist (Morganville, N.J.: Present Truth Publishers, 1995), pp. 10-12. In particuar, he states, "Because he raised the question of the saints being raised at Christ's "first appearing in the clouds of heaven," instead of later on "at the entrance of the thousand years," it is apparent that Collier certainly considered the idea of a pretribulation rapture."

Jac3510 wrote:8. John Asgill wrote a book in 1700 discussing the possibility of translation without seeing death.

Puritan Lad wrote: Not familiar with this guy at all. Can you give a direct quote?

The title of the book is An argument proving, that according to the covenant of Eternal Life revealed in the Scriptures, Man may be translated from hence into that Eternal Life, without passing through Death, although the Human Nature of Christ himself could not be thus translated till he had passed through Death.

That should do it. Needless to say, I've not read it, although I'm going to see if I can find it, as it sounds interesting.

Jac3510 wrote:9. Baptist Morgan Edwards, founder of Brown University, apparently believed in a system comparable to modern day mid-trib rapture. He published his beliefs in 1744 saying,
The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more--, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" . . . ; and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium . . . they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" . . ., and disappear during the foresaid period f time. The design of ths retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints.

Puritan Lad wrote: See Article posted above. And you wonder why I don't like referring to Dispensationalist Study Material. Very sloppy Jac (and Mr. Ice.)

And handled above.

Jac3510 wrote:In addition to all these, Dr. Ice mentions an individual who is currently compiling a list of pre-19th century references to the pre-trib. rapture from previously unpublished material. These should be released in the next few years.

Puritan Lad wrote: Can't wait to see it, though I must say, it sure has been tough finding this doctrine in church history, hasn't it? Maybe it's because it's just not there (as well as not in the Bible).

Kind of looking forward to it myself . . .

I have to say that I'm genuinely surprised at this line of argument from you and other Reformed thinkers. Was it not your group who came out crying Sola Scriptura!? Kill the idea, if you can, on purely exegetical grounds. It has been demonstrated over and over that the Church has historically been amillennial, but that is a development from Augustine. Prior to him, it is well established that the Church was broadly premillennial. It is no suprise that the idea of a pretribulational rapture didn't get systematized until recently. Hey, the doctrine of the hypostatic union didn't get systematized until a few generations after Christ . . . should we reject it, too?

It is common knowledge among church historians that the first issues dealt with were Christological, followed by Ecclesiological and Soteriological issues. These necessarily included debates on the nature and authority of Scripture, etc. It has only been recently, with the emphasis on biblical authority, that the other areas of theology have been developed, i.e. Pneumotology, Hamartiology, and only very recently Eschatology. But, that doesn't take away from the rightness or wrongness of an idea. You, of all people, should know that.

God bless

(no spell check for length and quotation)

Jac,

I'll look at the article in more depth when I have time. I do want to address a few points, and I cut out several of the quotes above for the sake of space,

1.) Imminence does not require a “pre-trib” rapture. As I pointed out earlier, the Postmillennial puritans also held to imminence.

2.) As for MacPherson, he is certainly controversial, if, for no other reason, he has refuted the sacred cow doctrine of so many “Left Behind” proponents. His arguments, however, are valid. "Pre-tribbers" have their own issues. Scofield was a convict, and most of our popular doomsday novelists are serious plagiarists (this has been pointed out by a great multitude of scholars, not just MacPherson). How many wives must Hal Lindsey go through before he is disqualified as a church leader?

I posted MacPherson's article because of his in-depth research, as well as to kill two birds with one stone. As for laying out the argument myself, I believe that I've done so in most of the examples you (or Ice) gave, showing that the vast majority of the “pre-trib” sources given by Ice were not “pre-trib” at all. The only exception might be Dolcino, and his “pre-trib” rapture hardly resembles that of modern dispensationalism as it only applied to him and his followers, after which he would return to earth to preach the “true” gospel. All in all, we both used external sources, and at the bottom of it all, there is no evidence for any “pre-trib” rapture (in the modern sense) prior to the 19th Century. You may want to check out tow of MacPherson's books (wherein he lists all of his sources), The Rapture Plot and The Three R's. The true origins of the “pre-trib” rapture may shock you.

3.) Edward's was a historical pre-mill. Therefore, he did not hold to a “pre-trib” rapture, since he was, in his own belief, already in the tribulation.

4.) Would you care to support your statement that “premillennialism was not only the position of the Apostolic Church, but also that it persisted in spite of supression!” There is certainly no consensus on early church eschatology. It is true that many Christians throughout church history believed that they were living in the last times. My argument in light of this is simple. They were wrong. What else needs to be said concerning their view other than that?

5.) I'll look for Asgill's book, but I've never heard of him. Hopefully, I can land a copy. However, in light of Ice's other arguments, I have serious doubts concerning this one. If you can find this book, I would be interested in a copy, so that I may read his entire position (rather than a few misquotes as Ice is famous for promoting.)

6.) Yes, I believe in Sola Scriptura. Even if there is no historical support for a doctrine, that does not make it wrong. However, church history should be given some consideration for interpretation in light of the “inferred” argument. Bizzt's argument for the “pre-trib” rapture was that, like the Trinity, it was an “inferred” Doctrine that can be supported with scripture. If that is true, then it needs to be explained why this doctrine, with the few “questionable” exceptions that you posted, totally escaped the minds of every Church Father for 1800 years. As far as Sola Scripture goes, there is no pre-trib rapture in the Bible. If you want to scrap the church history argument and debate solely from the Bible, I'm game. Just needed to point out that this doctrine was never “inferred” prior to the 19th century, and I have yet to see any real evidence otherwise.

7.) Also, I'm not familiar with your new brand of Dispensationalism. I find the classic view, as well as its many revisions, to border on the ridiculous. Therefore, you may help me by listing your end times timeline (with appropriate scripture references) that I may not presume any belief on you. It doesn't have to be detailed. Just a simple overview will do.

God Bless,

PL.

Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all speak of imminency.

Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

“You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.”

Of course, the fact that the majority of the above writings, if not all (Except for the Shepherd) took place prior to 70 AD. If anything their writings support preterism. The above quote from the Shepherd above clearly promotes that idea that the great tribulation and the beast were past events, although he seems to hold to a “dual fulfillment” idea in which a future tribulation and beast would persecute his audience. How about that? The imminence of these writings supports preterism Jac. Nothing is said here about the 21st Century.

I already dealt with the rest of Ice's article in the previous posts. The sad part is that Ice knows this stuff, and still promotes these falsehoods. It's one thing to hold onto a certain doctrine. It's another thing entirely to promote falsehoods in order to give that doctrine historical significance.

Too Rapture or not too Rapture - can turn into such a Shakespearean debate

Anyways:

I have two questions for Preterist and these are:

What is to occur after 70 AD to current date?
And how will the world end and why?

(Note: Please leave out the 70 weeks of Daniel in any answer as IMHO — that has already been fulfilled by 70 AD as testified by historical record)

Next, can someone gather current Historical facts for this debate?

--The Current Population Number of Christians in the world as of 2006

--Of this number of professed number of Christians — how many truly are?

--The Current Number of Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Occult etc. in the world as of 2006

Which of these is the fastest growing religion in the world?

How much hostility exists in the current world against Christian belief and practice?

Can someone give documented evidence of such hostility?

Is this hostility increasing world wide?

Is the theology of Preterist or end time Rapturist being fulfilled by the empirical Historical/Statistical records?

I know full well that these questions have nothing to do with the pre-mid-post rapture but it would be nice for preterist to kindly explain what they believe about the events from 70 AD to current date and to the end of the world and why the world should end. I have not heard this explained very well by a preterist. Maybe someone could help us understand what they believe beyond 70 AD.

I am not asking these things to pick a fight nor posing a trick question — just would like a simple easy to understand answer to what preterist believe is to occur after 70 AD to current date? And how will the world end and why?
-
-
-

I'm back at work, so I don't have time to deal with this in detail now, but quickly: The general reference is to the Apostolic Fathers, of which the particular references were only examples of and contemporary with. You think those were written before AD 70?

* Clement of Rome wrote around 100. (Link)
* Ignatius of Antioch wrote during the reign of Trajan, after 100 (Link).
* The Didache was apparently written between 60-80. (Link)
* The Epistle of Barnabas was written between 70 - 131(Link)

The Church Fathers did not write prior to 70 AD, as you insist. Since your claims are outside of the mainstream, you need to justify yourself here.

B. W. wrote:What is to occur after 70 AD to current date?

The fulfillment of the Great Commission, where the church will succeed in making disciples of all nations.(Psalm 22:27-28; Psalm 72:11;Hab. 2:14). Note: I realize that it is a disappointment to find out that the Bible doesn't say much about 21st Century Events, but it doesn't.

B.W. wrote:And how will the world end and why?

Not sure that it will, for the meek shall inherit the earth. Perhaps 2 Peter 3:10 is to be taken literal, but this same language was used elsewhere in scripture as symbolic (See Isaiah's Prophecy concerning the fall of Babylon in Isaiah 13, and against Edom in Isaiah 34. Ezekiel against Egypt in Ezekiel 30 and 32). We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Next, can someone gather current Historical facts for this debate?

--The Current Population Number of Christians in the world as of 2006.

I've seen numbers that say that about 2 Billion - 1/3 of the world's population, profess some sort of "Christian" faith. However, I think that number includes Cults such as Mormons, JW's, etc.

--Of this number of professed number of Christians — how many truly are?

Your guess is as good as mine. It is for the Lord of the Harvest to separate the wheat from the chaff. That, I am incapable of doing. (Although I'm pretty sure it isn't 2 Billion).

--The Current Number of Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Occult etc. in the world as of 2006

Which of these is the fastest growing religion in the world?

Not sure. I would guess that Christianity, worldwide, is still the fastest growing, despite the postmodernism in many European Countries.

How much hostility exists in the current world against Christian belief and practice?

Can someone give documented evidence of such hostility?

Is this hostility increasing world wide?

There is definitely some hostility, particularly in Muslim Countries. However, I wouldn't say it is increasing. If anything, it is stable.

Is the theology of Preterist or end time Rapturist being fulfilled by the empirical Historical/Statistical records?

I believe that the kingdom is growing like leaven, until it will fill the whole world. It may take thousands, perhaps millions of years to fulfill. The rapturist, on the other hand cannot possibly see himself living at any time other then the climax of history. Every war, natural disaster, plague, etc., to the rapturist, is something special. It cannot be just like past disasters. To the rapturist, these things must be a sign of the end.

In short, the only Bible Prophecy left to be fulfilled is...

The Conversion of Judaists to the Christian faith (Romans 11:25-27)
The Fulfillment of the Great Commission (Psalm 22:27-28)
The Second Advent (Acts 1:11; 2 Peter 3:10)
The Resurrection (Only one - John 5:28-29)
The Final Judgment.

Hope this clears up the Postmillennial view a little.

Jac3510 wrote:I'm back at work, so I don't have time to deal with this in detail now, but quickly: The general reference is to the Apostolic Fathers, of which the particular references were only examples of and contemporary with. You think those were written before AD 70?

* Clement of Rome wrote around 100. (Link)
* Ignatius of Antioch wrote during the reign of Trajan, after 100 (Link).
* The Didache was apparently written between 60-80. (Link)
* The Epistle of Barnabas was written between 70 - 131(Link)

The Church Fathers did not write prior to 70 AD, as you insist. Since your claims are outside of the mainstream, you need to justify yourself here.

I will do so. In any case, those fathers who wrote about the "imminence" of Christ coming after 70 AD were wrong. That is the merit of their arguments.

* Clement of Rome wrote around 100. (Link)

Clement writes, “"Not in every place, brethren, are the continual daily sacrifices offered, or the freewill offerings, or the sin offerings or the trespass offerings, but in Jerusalem alone. And even there the offering is not made in every place, but before the sanctuary in the court of the altar; and this too through the high-priest and the aforesaid ministers." (41:2) That clearly puts at least part of the letter, if not all, prior to 70 AD. (See http://www.bible.ca/history/fathers/ANF ... P470_79777 - Chapter XLI.-Continuation of the Same Subject.)

* Ignatius of Antioch wrote during the reign of Trajan, after 100 (Link).

I'll give you that. As I said before, if Ignatius taught the imminent Second Advent, he was (at least) 2,000 year off (He was wrong).

* The Didache was apparently written between 60-80. (Link)

"it (The Didache) was composed, almost certainly in Antioch, between 50 and 70." (Quoted by John A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1976), 323.) Apparently you are OK with this one.

* The Epistle of Barnabas was written between 70 - 131(Link)

OK with this date. We must conclude that at least 2 (maybe 3) of the 5 writings that you gave as examples were written prior to 70 AD. One of the others (The Shepherd) refers to the tribulation and the beast as past events. I will also note that, contrary to dispensational theology, the post 70 AD church writers (such as Ignatius) unanimously rejected the idea that earthly Israel was an heir to the Covenant Promises of God. (For them, 70 AD was proof of this. They were the first “Replacement Theologians”).

I do want to thank you for the Shepherd quote. That adds even more strength to the preterist view...

puritan lad wrote:

B. W. wrote:What is to occur after 70 AD to current date?

The fulfillment of the Great Commission, where the church will succeed in making disciples of all nations.(Psalm 22:27-28; Psalm 72:11;Hab. 2:14). Note: I realize that it is a disappointment to find out that the Bible doesn't say much about 21st Century Events, but it doesn't.

B.W. wrote:And how will the world end and why?

Not sure that it will, for the meek shall inherit the earth. Perhaps 2 Peter 3:10 is to be taken literal, but this same language was used elsewhere in scripture as symbolic (See Isaiah's Prophecy concerning the fall of Babylon in Isaiah 13, and against Edom in Isaiah 34. Ezekiel against Egypt in Ezekiel 30 and 32). We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Next, can someone gather current Historical facts for this debate?

--The Current Population Number of Christians in the world as of 2006.

I've seen numbers that say that about 2 Billion - 1/3 of the world's population, profess some sort of "Christian" faith. However, I think that number includes Cults such as Mormons, JW's, etc.

--Of this number of professed number of Christians — how many truly are?

Your guess is as good as mine. It is for the Lord of the Harvest to separate the wheat from the chaff. That, I am incapable of doing. (Although I'm pretty sure it isn't 2 Billion).

--The Current Number of Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Occult etc. in the world as of 2006

Which of these is the fastest growing religion in the world?

Not sure. I would guess that Christianity, worldwide, is still the fastest growing, despite the postmodernism in many European Countries.

How much hostility exists in the current world against Christian belief and practice?

Can someone give documented evidence of such hostility?

Is this hostility increasing world wide?

There is definitely some hostility, particularly in Muslim Countries. However, I wouldn't say it is increasing. If anything, it is stable.

Is the theology of Preterist or end time Rapturist being fulfilled by the empirical Historical/Statistical records?

I believe that the kingdom is growing like leaven, until it will fill the whole world. It may take thousands, perhaps millions of years to fulfill. The rapturist, on the other hand cannot possibly see himself living at any time other then the climax of history. Every war, natural disaster, plague, etc., to the rapturist, is something special. It cannot be just like past disasters. To the rapturist, these things must be a sign of the end.

In short, the only Bible Prophecy left to be fulfilled is...

The Conversion of Judaists to the Christian faith (Romans 11:25-27)
The Fulfillment of the Great Commission (Psalm 22:27-28)
The Second Advent (Acts 1:11; 2 Peter 3:10)
The Resurrection (Only one - John 5:28-29)
The Final Judgment.

Hope this clears up the Postmillennial view a little.

Thanks PL!

Below is a quote from 'Pretist Vision' Web Site Concerning the future events - do you agree with this quote or any part of it?

Quote Below FromThis Preterist Web Site

Question: If Preterism is true, then what next?

Answer: All biblical expectations of the ever-expanding dominion of God's kingdom and righteousness on earth are carried out by, in, and through Christ and His Church (Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 7:27; Lk 1:33; Eph 3:9-11,21; Heb 12:27-28; Matt 21:43; Titus 2:14; Rev 5:9-10; Rev 2:26; Matt 25:21). The Church is the very Body of Christ, the "fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph 1:22-23). As St Paul wrote, "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever" (Eph 3:21). God's people must exercise dominion and teach covenantal law. The Church, ruling and reigning with Christ, must continue to bring all created things into accordance with God's law, be it individuals, families, states, governments, or any other aspect of creation. All power in heaven and earth belongs to Christ and his people (Matt 28:18-19; Matt 16:18-19).
-
-
-

B. W. wrote:Too Rapture or not too Rapture - can turn into such a Shakespearean debate

Anyways:

I have two questions for Preterist and these are:

What is to occur after 70 AD to current date?
And how will the world end and why?

(Note: Please leave out the 70 weeks of Daniel in any answer as IMHO — that has already been fulfilled by 70 AD as testified by historical record)

Next, can someone gather current Historical facts for this debate?

--The Current Population Number of Christians in the world as of 2006

--Of this number of professed number of Christians — how many truly are?

--The Current Number of Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Occult etc. in the world as of 2006

Which of these is the fastest growing religion in the world?

How much hostility exists in the current world against Christian belief and practice?

Can someone give documented evidence of such hostility?

Is this hostility increasing world wide?

Is the theology of Preterist or end time Rapturist being fulfilled by the empirical Historical/Statistical records?

I know full well that these questions have nothing to do with the pre-mid-post rapture but it would be nice for preterist to kindly explain what they believe about the events from 70 AD to current date and to the end of the world and why the world should end. I have not heard this explained very well by a preterist. Maybe someone could help us understand what they believe beyond 70 AD.

I am not asking these things to pick a fight nor posing a trick question — just would like a simple easy to understand answer to what preterist believe is to occur after 70 AD to current date? And how will the world end and why?

Here are some sites on demographics:

The demographics do include JW, Mormon, and a host of other liberal non-Christian groups as Christian. Current estimates place 33 percent of the world population in this affiliation; however, not all would be classed as true bible based Christianity of being Born Again. If you take the time to go over all the data from these sites and others — I came up with a rough estimate of about 21 percent would fit in the born again range but then again — this number could be off either way.

WNRF SITE

ADHERENT SITE

The point here is that, even though the Gospel has literally spread into all the world by various media and methods — the job is far from complete due to the birth rate of new populations and various opposition.

Fastest growing religion in the world is Islam and not Christianity due to wrongfully including non-born again Christian proselytizing into the Christina mix. Remove this factor — Christianity is in second place and in many western countries — slowly vanishing altogether.

Now on to Hostility factor:

There are more sites that deal with this issue than I posted. I suggest doing your own Yahoo and Google Search titled: "religion demographics persecution" form more details.

Christian Human Rights Site

MERCY SITE ARTICLE

No-where in the bible does it ever promise freedom from any forms or styles of persecution until the New Heavens and Earth are made and God wipes away our tears.

What do the facts state for Preterist position? For the Rapturist of any persuasion? I only included a few links — there are more on “religion demographics” than I can list and add in the “religion demographics persecution” list too
-
-
-

B. W. wrote:Thanks PL!

Below is a quote from 'Pretist Vision' Web Site Concerning the future events - do you agree with this quote or any part of it?

Quote Below FromThis Preterist Web Site

Question: If Preterism is true, then what next?

Answer: All biblical expectations of the ever-expanding dominion of God's kingdom and righteousness on earth are carried out by, in, and through Christ and His Church (Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 7:27; Lk 1:33; Eph 3:9-11,21; Heb 12:27-28; Matt 21:43; Titus 2:14; Rev 5:9-10; Rev 2:26; Matt 25:21). The Church is the very Body of Christ, the "fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph 1:22-23). As St Paul wrote, "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever" (Eph 3:21). God's people must exercise dominion and teach covenantal law. The Church, ruling and reigning with Christ, must continue to bring all created things into accordance with God's law, be it individuals, families, states, governments, or any other aspect of creation. All power in heaven and earth belongs to Christ and his people (Matt 28:18-19; Matt 16:18-19).
-
-
-

I would agree, although there are different opinions on exactly what the end-result goal would be. There are some in the Tylerite camp who would have the entire planet placed under all of the Mosaic Civil Laws (for example, the government would stone your rebellious teenager to death).

I hold that, when the Great Commission has been completed, such Civil Laws would not be necessary, because "the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea." (Hab. 2:14). It is important to recognize the power of the gospel itself to transform. Otherwise, we can make the mistake (as some have) of trying to bring about the Kingdom of God to fruition by way of military might.

Jesus told His Disciples that, as they carried out the Great Commission, He would be with them always, even to the end of the age. The question you have to ask is, "Will it succeed, or will it fail?" No matter how you slice it, the Dispensational Endtimes view teaches the failure of the Great Commission in this age.

With regard to the number of Christians on the planet and the rate of growth, these are sad statistics, but not relevant to the discussion. Jesus did not say that it would be easy, only that we would overcome. God transforms the world by pouring out His Spirit at different times and in different places. The last real Revival that this planet has seen was The Great Awakening. I hope to live to see the next one. It may or may not happen in my lifetime, but it will happen.

A great book that I would recommend that addresses these issues is The Puritan hope: Revival and the Interpretation of Prophecy by Iain Murray.

I must add that, with the modern dispensational endtimes view, the increase in ungodliness becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Dispensationalism (Rapturism) preaches a gospel that cannot succeed, nor does it expect to. In their worldview, the world is a "sinking ship" (to quote one Dispensational scholar), and the only hope for the church is to get raptured out of the mess. (The call this the "Blessed Hope". Go figure). Many expect to get out of life alive, and this has had tragic consequences. David Chilton explains:

"Does it make a difference? Does your view of prophecy really affect your life? I think we have already seen much of the answer to that question. The basic issue has to do with your attitude toward the future. I recall a “Jesus People” newspaper of the early 1970s which carried an interview with the most popular “prophecy expert” of those days. On the basis of the “fact” that Jesus was going to rapture His Church “at any moment,” this man actually counseled his young followers not to marry and raise families. After all, there was no time for that sort of thing. The Rapture was coming, so any work for dominion would be useless. (If you were the devil, could you devise a better, more “spiritual-sounding” excuse for Christians to abandon God's plan for victory?) The “Rapture Ethic” of those years led many to leave school, jobs, families, and responsibility in general; flocks of Jesus People wandered aimlessly around the country, with no clear goal beyond the next Christian rock concert. It was years before many of them woke up, and it sometimes took years more to put their lives together again." - (David Chilton - Paradise Restored, pp. 10-11)

Paradise Restored is another book I would recommend if you can get it. The Eschatology of Dominion is the Historic view of the Christian Church, and you need to look no further than the hymns and Christmas Carols to prove it. (Look at the whole Christmas Carol "Joy To The World".) We need to hold on to these promises, regardless of what the statistics tell us. Remember, we walk by faith, not by sight.

puritan lad wrote:

B. W. wrote:Thanks PL!

Below is a quote from 'Pretist Vision' Web Site Concerning the future events - do you agree with this quote or any part of it?

Quote Below FromThis Preterist Web Site

Question: If Preterism is true, then what next?

Answer: All biblical expectations of the ever-expanding dominion of God's kingdom and righteousness on earth are carried out by, in, and through Christ and His Church (Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 7:27; Lk 1:33; Eph 3:9-11,21; Heb 12:27-28; Matt 21:43; Titus 2:14; Rev 5:9-10; Rev 2:26; Matt 25:21). The Church is the very Body of Christ, the "fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph 1:22-23). As St Paul wrote, "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever" (Eph 3:21). God's people must exercise dominion and teach covenantal law. The Church, ruling and reigning with Christ, must continue to bring all created things into accordance with God's law, be it individuals, families, states, governments, or any other aspect of creation. All power in heaven and earth belongs to Christ and his people (Matt 28:18-19; Matt 16:18-19).
-
-
-

I would agree, although there are different opinions on exactly what the end-result goal would be. There are some in the Tylerite camp who would have the entire planet placed under all of the Mosaic Civil Laws (for example, the government would stone your rebellious teenager to death).

I hold that, when the Great Commission has been completed, such Civil Laws would not be necessary, because "the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea." (Hab. 2:14). It is important to recognize the power of the gospel itself to transform. Otherwise, we can make the mistake (as some have) of trying to bring about the Kingdom of God to fruition by way of military might.

Jesus told His Disciples that, as they carried out the Great Commission, He would be with them always, even to the end of the age. The question you have to ask is, "Will it succeed, or will it fail?" No matter how you slice it, the Dispensational Endtimes view teaches the failure of the Great Commission in this age.

With regard to the number of Christians on the planet and the rate of growth, these are sad statistics, but not relevant to the discussion. Jesus did not say that it would be easy, only that we would overcome. God transforms the world by pouring out His Spirit at different times and in different places. The last real Revival that this planet has seen was The Great Awakening. I hope to live to see the next one. It may or may not happen in my lifetime, but it will happen.

A great book that I would recommend that addresses these issues is The Puritan hope: Revival and the Interpretation of Prophecy by Iain Murray.

I must add that, with the modern dispensational endtimes view, the increase in ungodliness becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Dispensationalism (Rapturism) preaches a gospel that cannot succeed, nor does it expect to. In their worldview, the world is a "sinking ship" (to quote one Dispensational scholar), and the only hope for the church is to get raptured out of the mess. (The call this the "Blessed Hope". Go figure). Many expect to get out of life alive, and this has had tragic consequences. David Chilton explains:

"Does it make a difference? Does your view of prophecy really affect your life? I think we have already seen much of the answer to that question. The basic issue has to do with your attitude toward the future. I recall a “Jesus People” newspaper of the early 1970s which carried an interview with the most popular “prophecy expert” of those days. On the basis of the “fact” that Jesus was going to rapture His Church “at any moment,” this man actually counseled his young followers not to marry and raise families. After all, there was no time for that sort of thing. The Rapture was coming, so any work for dominion would be useless. (If you were the devil, could you devise a better, more “spiritual-sounding” excuse for Christians to abandon God's plan for victory?) The “Rapture Ethic” of those years led many to leave school, jobs, families, and responsibility in general; flocks of Jesus People wandered aimlessly around the country, with no clear goal beyond the next Christian rock concert. It was years before many of them woke up, and it sometimes took years more to put their lives together again." - (David Chilton - Paradise Restored, pp. 10-11)

Paradise Restored is another book I would recommend if you can get it. The Eschatology of Dominion is the Historic view of the Christian Church, and you need to look no further than the hymns and Christmas Carols to prove it. (Look at the whole Christmas Carol "Joy To The World".) We need to hold on to these promises, regardless of what the statistics tell us. Remember, we walk by faith, not by sight.

PL, Thank you for the intel on the books and great post. I'll look into Iain Murray's book.

Now, can someone respond from any of the Rapturist positions and state his or her view on the stats, comments, and questions thus posed?

IMHO - I do not think every Rapturist really believes all the world is a lost cause and PL - who is the guy you quoted that said this and in what context was it stated?

Also, another question for the discussion - is the Preterist position - Dominionism or part Dominionism?
-
-
-