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bizzt
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Post by bizzt »

Byblos wrote:
bizzt wrote:That sounds like to me what Jesus Did for us. If Jesus Delivered us from our Sin then why is there Purgatory?
Obviously there are deep disagreements between us, one being the issue of salvation by faith alone or by both faith and works. Before I can answer your question in any detail, however, let me ask you a question. What is judgement in your view? Who will be judged and based on what?
I am going to Quote Scriptures (New Testament) about Judgment
1Jo 4:17 Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world.

2Th 1:3 We are bound to give thanks to God always to you, brethren, even as it is meet, for that your faith growth exceedingly, and the love of each one of you all toward one another aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure;
2Th 1:5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Rom 5:16 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

Joh 5:29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
Mat 12:36 And I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
This is what I get from Judgement. The Elect will be Judged, from Every Idle word etc... Both The Elect and Wicked will be Judged however they will be Judged differently why because I was written in the Book of Life and the Wicked were not. To me I am cleansed by the Blood of Jesus. He is my Saviour, my Lord and God. He died for my Sins from past to present. Jesus said it Beautifully in John vs 5:24-29 and of course As Paul said to be asleep is to be present with the Lord.


However I believe that Jesus has guaranteed my Salvation by Faith. Works is our Testimony of our Faith. However without Works we do not have Faith. I agree whole heartedly because if you really had Faith you would want to please God and for me that is Tithing, Feeding the Poor, Healing the Sick, etc...

Byblos if that did not answer your question I am sorry. I don't have a huge amount of time to go in depth in my Answer
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Byblos

Post by aa118816 »

Please do not take my disagreements personally, bc you seem like a reasonable guy. If you do want to debate works, please lay out your case. I am a former Catholic-so I understand the Catholic Church well. My whole family is Catholic, so I have debated this to the moon and fortunately, I have been able to get them to see the light. To reiterate, please watch the program between Mitch Pacwa and Walter Martin. Pacwa had gotten giddy when he started the segment on works because he was so sure that he had a great case. Unfortunately, he badly lost-as all Catholics debating for works have lost in every exchange I have read. The fall back position is always, it has been revealed to the church, or the Catechism says so.

Dan
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bizzt,

Post by aa118816 »

Without Faith, we will not have works. We can see that someone has no faith if they are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit which creates good works.

Dan
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Post by Byblos »

bizzt wrote:
Byblos wrote:
bizzt wrote:That sounds like to me what Jesus Did for us. If Jesus Delivered us from our Sin then why is there Purgatory?
Obviously there are deep disagreements between us, one being the issue of salvation by faith alone or by both faith and works. Before I can answer your question in any detail, however, let me ask you a question. What is judgement in your view? Who will be judged and based on what?
I am going to Quote Scriptures (New Testament) about Judgment
1Jo 4:17 Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world.

2Th 1:3 We are bound to give thanks to God always to you, brethren, even as it is meet, for that your faith growth exceedingly, and the love of each one of you all toward one another aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure;
2Th 1:5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Rom 5:16 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

Joh 5:29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
Mat 12:36 And I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
This is what I get from Judgement. The Elect will be Judged, from Every Idle word etc... Both The Elect and Wicked will be Judged however they will be Judged differently why because I was written in the Book of Life and the Wicked were not. To me I am cleansed by the Blood of Jesus. He is my Saviour, my Lord and God. He died for my Sins from past to present. Jesus said it Beautifully in John vs 5:24-29 and of course As Paul said to be asleep is to be present with the Lord.


However I believe that Jesus has guaranteed my Salvation by Faith. Works is our Testimony of our Faith. However without Works we do not have Faith. I agree whole heartedly because if you really had Faith you would want to please God and for me that is Tithing, Feeding the Poor, Healing the Sick, etc...

Byblos if that did not answer your question I am sorry. I don't have a huge amount of time to go in depth in my Answer
I may be reading it wrong but you must admit it's a bit confusing. At first you say the elect will be judged, albeit differently (how differently and what are the concequences?), then you say Jesus has guaranteed salvation by faith. If salvation is guaranteed by faith, why is there a need for judgement?
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Re: Byblos

Post by Byblos »

aa118816 wrote:Please do not take my disagreements personally, bc you seem like a reasonable guy. If you do want to debate works, please lay out your case. I am a former Catholic-so I understand the Catholic Church well. My whole family is Catholic, so I have debated this to the moon and fortunately, I have been able to get them to see the light. To reiterate, please watch the program between Mitch Pacwa and Walter Martin. Pacwa had gotten giddy when he started the segment on works because he was so sure that he had a great case. Unfortunately, he badly lost-as all Catholics debating for works have lost in every exchange I have read. The fall back position is always, it has been revealed to the church, or the Catechism says so.

Dan
Dan, your disagreements are not taken personally. In fact as a former Catholic, I am most interested in your opinion on judgement for the simple reason that (and here's the shocker) I myself am indecisive on the subject. The way I see it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Either we are saved by faith and we do good works as a result or we do good works and we are saved. No matter how small, there will always be some kind of measure of works, if nothing at all but to profess with our mouth Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. In any case, the end result is the same. This is why I was reluctant to start a new thread; I didn't want it to seem I want to debate the issue per se, but if you don't mind, I would love to hear your opinions on the matter, here, in a new thread, or even a PM, up to you.

God bless,

Byblos
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Post by August »

Hi Byblos,

I was speaking to a Catholic friend last nigh, and he mentioned that Catholic doctrine teaches that Jesus sinned three times. I can only remember two of the three he mentioned: Jesus cursing the fig tree, and Jesus being disrespectful to His parents when He stayed behind to teach in the temple.

Is this consistent with Catholic doctrine, or was my friend mistaken?
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Post by Byblos »

August wrote:Hi Byblos,

I was speaking to a Catholic friend last nigh, and he mentioned that Catholic doctrine teaches that Jesus sinned three times. I can only remember two of the three he mentioned: Jesus cursing the fig tree, and Jesus being disrespectful to His parents when He stayed behind to teach in the temple.

Is this consistent with Catholic doctrine, or was my friend mistaken?
In both cases he was doing the will of his Father and therefore, was not committing sin, he couldn't have. I do not believe this to be Catholic doctrine in any way, shape, or form. Central to the Catholic doctrine is the trinity and the deity of Christ. Your friend was mistaken or at a minimum grossly misunderstood some teachings about Christ.
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Post by August »

Thanks. I thought it sounded fishy.

He said he was taught that when he was growing up in Catholic Sunday school.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
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Post by Fortigurn »

Byblos wrote:Typical Fortigurn argument, putting words in people's mouths. Where did I say 'taking account of purgatory'. I agree with you he said 'taking account of the resurrection'.
I didn't say you were claming it said 'taking account of purgatory', I said that you were claiming that it was done 'taking account of purgatory'. You posted this in support of purgatory, after all.
I do not agree with you that that means he meant the prayers will be for their benefit at their resurrection. The text simply does not mean that. All it means is that because he knew they will eventually be resurrected, it is worth praying for them now. Period. You are reading too much into the text.
Can you say that with a straight face? Here's the text:
2 Maccabees 12:
43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.

44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
He did it:

* On account of the resurrection

* Expecting that those who had fallen would rise again

* Looking forward to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in Godliness

How can you possibly read this as saying anything other than that the whole point of this exercise was to benefit the men at their resurrection?
And yes, I agree if there was no resurrection the prayers are useless.
Well now you agree with me - if there was no resurrection, the prayers are useless. The Catholic teaching on this passage is that the prayers were for the benefit of souls in purgatory, nothing to do with the resurrection.

From the Catholic point of view, even if there was no resurrection, the prayers were far from pointless, they were getting these people's souls out of purgatory before their resurrection.
I'm arguing what he meant when he said it, which is simply that he's praying for them because he believes one day they will be resurrected. Not that his prayers now will benefit them at their resurrection.
These two sentences contradict each other. Now the question is, do you believe he was praying for them so that they would be released from purgatory? That is the Catholic teaching on this passage.
The readers might be convinced because none of them believe in purgatory so I'm not surprised they might agree with you (not that there's anything wrong with that).
I believe the readers will be convinced that this says nothing about purgatory, because purgatory is nowhere referred to here.

I believe they will be convinced that this says the prayers were offered on the basis of the resurrection, in order to benefit the men when they were raised, because that is what the text says.
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Post by Byblos »

Fortigurn wrote:
Byblos wrote:Typical Fortigurn argument, putting words in people's mouths. Where did I say 'taking account of purgatory'. I agree with you he said 'taking account of the resurrection'.


I didn't say you were claming it said 'taking account of purgatory', I said that you were claiming that it was done 'taking account of purgatory'. You posted this in support of purgatory, after all.
I do not agree with you that that means he meant the prayers will be for their benefit at their resurrection. The text simply does not mean that. All it means is that because he knew they will eventually be resurrected, it is worth praying for them now. Period. You are reading too much into the text.


Can you say that with a straight face? Here's the text:


There you go again with your sarcastic remarks. Please keep them to yourself, they serve no other purpose but to highlight your pompous attitude.

And to answer your question, I definitely can say it with a straight face. You are simply reading too much into the text. Let's see:
Fortigurn wrote:
2 Maccabees 12:
43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.


'Taking account of the resurrection', having believed they will one day be resurrected, he decided to pray for them now.
Fortigurn wrote:44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.


What is the point of praying unless eventually they will rise again? Makes sense to me, but nowhere does it say his prayers will benefit them ONLY then. He's praying now and he's expecting his prayers will do some good now. The only reason you can't see that is because your belief system does not allow for the existence of a soul outside the body. I can understand your position from that viewpoint but I do not agree with it.
Fortigurn wrote:45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.


He did it:

* On account of the resurrection

* Expecting that those who had fallen would rise again

* Looking forward to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in Godliness

How can you possibly read this as saying anything other than that the whole point of this exercise was to benefit the men at their resurrection?


Once again, your conclusion is predicated on your belief system that after death nothing can possibly happen until the resurrection. I do not fault you for reading it the way you do, you have no other choice. But let me ask you this question: If he thought his prayers would not benefit them at the time he said them, if for one second he thought his prayers would not benefit them until he also dies and is resurrected with them, then what is the point of praying for them now? There would be none. Then the question becomes, could he pray for them once everyone is resurrected? The answer is no because it would be too late by then. Ergo, you cannot read the text but in the mindset that his prayers would benefit them now, not at the resurrection when it's too late. To read it otherwise would mean that God is accumulating all these prayers in some sort of gigantic warehouse only to whip them out and use them at the final resurrection. Is that what you're suggesting?
Fortigurn wrote:
And yes, I agree if there was no resurrection the prayers are useless.


Well now you agree with me - if there was no resurrection, the prayers are useless. The Catholic teaching on this passage is that the prayers were for the benefit of souls in purgatory, nothing to do with the resurrection.


I don't know what you're talking about. I never disagreed with this. Like I said, it makes perfect sense that he would pray for them knowing they will be resurrected one day. What would be the point otherwise?
Fortigurn wrote:From the Catholic point of view, even if there was no resurrection, the prayers were far from pointless, they were getting these people's souls out of purgatory before their resurrection.


Wha? Total nonsense. You're confusing the physical resurrection with the treatment of the soul. But then again, given your belief system, it is quite understandable.
Fortigurn wrote:
I'm arguing what he meant when he said it, which is simply that he's praying for them because he believes one day they will be resurrected. Not that his prayers now will benefit them at their resurrection.


These two sentences contradict each other. Now the question is, do you believe he was praying for them so that they would be released from purgatory? That is the Catholic teaching on this passage.


No contradiction. His prayers are for the benefit of their souls (something you cannot discern outside the body). Their souls will benefit now, their body and soul will benefit at the resurrection.
Fortigurn wrote:
The readers might be convinced because none of them believe in purgatory so I'm not surprised they might agree with you (not that there's anything wrong with that).


I believe the readers will be convinced that this says nothing about purgatory, because purgatory is nowhere referred to here.

I believe they will be convinced that this says the prayers were offered on the basis of the resurrection, in order to benefit the men when they were raised, because that is what the text says.


Your interpretation, nothing more. I disagree.
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Post by Kurieuo »

Byblos wrote:The only thing I will say (again) is this: Jesus established a visible church when he proclaimed Peter to be the rock and on this rock he will build his church. Of course it was not the Roman Catholic church back then but clearly the RCC is the direct decedent of the church Jesus established on earth.
Actually there were other Christians which were directly descended from Jesus.

For example Montanists, which were eventually wiped out as a result of the "Christianising of the Empire," had a succession which began with the prophets Agabus, Judas (Barsabbas), and Silas (as found in Acts 11:28; 15:22), then through the daughters of Philip in the Phrygian town of Hierapolis, Ammia and Quadratus, and onto Maximilla and Priscilla. Constantine was heavily responsible for closing their churches and forbidding meetings (along with churches and meetings of others considered "heretics"). I see that Christians persecutated what I believe to be other legitimate Christians, perhaps with good intentions although their actions were wrong, and since Rome had claimed and gained power as the authoritative church, they became the dominating form under the RCC.

For those unfamiliar with Montanism, who would be interested to read more about them and their conflicts with the Catholic church, I've attached a paper I wrote not too long ago.

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Post by Jac3510 »

Fortigurn, if I may ask you . . .

Is there a particular reason why you don't just fully concede to Byblos' argument as it relates to the Maccabean text? It seems to me that he is exactly right. I would simply reject the text as Scripture in the same way I reject the oral traditions as authoritative. If the doctrine of purgatory isn't to be found in the rest of the Bible, I see no reason to accept it. If it is, we can have a rational discussion on those texts rather than on non-Scripture (as we see it).

Byblos: I only have one question for you, and it has nothing to do with a "trumping" idea here. I suspect I could find any catholic source and get my question very easily answered, but you're here, so it makes it easy. What is the Catholic understanding of Eph 2:8-10 and Rom. 4:1-4? These seem to clearly teach that salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works, which is, of course, directly contradictory to Catholic dogma. Again, I'm not wanting a debate. I just want to be better familiar with the Catholic doctrine.

(For the record, I'm as Free Grace as Free Grace gets. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith alone to the extent that the addition of any kind of works, be it good deeds, baptism, commitment of life, or even repentance, results in a false gospel and, as such, cannot bring salvation. I just say that so that you will have an idea where I am coming from :)).

Thanks for the help, and God bless
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by Byblos »

Jac3510 wrote:Byblos: I only have one question for you, and it has nothing to do with a "trumping" idea here. I suspect I could find any catholic source and get my question very easily answered, but you're here, so it makes it easy. What is the Catholic understanding of Eph 2:8-10 and Rom. 4:1-4? These seem to clearly teach that salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works, which is, of course, directly contradictory to Catholic dogma. Again, I'm not wanting a debate. I just want to be better familiar with the Catholic doctrine.

(For the record, I'm as Free Grace as Free Grace gets. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith alone to the extent that the addition of any kind of works, be it good deeds, baptism, commitment of life, or even repentance, results in a false gospel and, as such, cannot bring salvation. I just say that so that you will have an idea where I am coming from :)).

Thanks for the help, and God bless



Jac,

First I'd like to ask you the same question I asked Dan (and someone else as well) but never got an answer. What is your position vis-a-vis judgment? Who will be judged and why?

You are correct in saying Eph 2:8-10 and Rom 4:1-4 make a compelling argument for salvation by grace alone. And if these verses were the only ones speaking of salvation then the issue, I would suspect, would not have created this big divide between Catholicism and the reformers. But what about all the other verses that clearly speak of baptism and repentance? What about Jesus telling us to 'do this in memory of me' several times? What about the verses that speak of keeping God's commandments? They are too numerous to list and I'm sure I don't need to give you examples you're more than familiar with. What are we to do then with all these seemingly contradictory instructions? Who decides what the best approach is? Before you tell me it is the individual with the help of the Holy Spirit, look at the many hundreds of divisions within christianity since the reformist movement (even before), except within the Catholic movement. Why is that? Simply because there's a central authority that interprets scripture and issues explanations. Is it a perfect system? No, there have been many mistakes, some of which are utterly deplorable. Are we to take what the RCC dishes out without questions? Of course not. I have many disagreements with some RCC practices and have no problem voicing them (excommunication and celibacy, for example).

As for me personally, I truly do not see a difference between the two approaches. Like I said before, either we are saved and we do good works as a result, or we do good works and we are saved. The end result is the same. The only thing that is keeping me from giving salvation by grace alone a serious thought is the issue of judgment. That's why I keep asking what everyone's position on the subject is. Clearly scripture (Mat 12:36, 1 John 4:17, etc.) says that all will be judged (or do you disagree?). If we are saved by grace alone, then why is there a need for judgment? Or if we are all to be judged, are we not to be judged based on our works and deeds? You see where the dilemma is, Jac? Frankly, I haven't seen a satisfactory answer yet.

Always in Christ,

Byblos.
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Post by Jac3510 »

Byblos,

Let me just preface this by saying that I want to be really careful about avoiding pushing a particular belief in this thread. I have other threads for that ;). Seriously, there are some discussions in which I advocate and others in which I question. This is one of the latter, so please don't take any of the below as an argument. I'll simply explain my position as related to the questions you asked.

Your primary question relates to judgment. Who is judged and why? My position tells me that everyone will be judged. Being the premillennial dispensationalist that I am, I see several major judgments in Scripture. For Christians, the primary judgment (in fact, the only eschatological judgment, so far as I see it, although I may be willing to tweak this in one area I can think of off the top of my head) is the bema seat as recorded in 1 Cor. 3:12-15. This is the judgment of every person who has ever been justified before God, from the time of Adam until the advent of the New Creation. It does not determine one's salvation. It is to determine the rewards one receives in the life to come. So far as the time it happens, there are two possibilities, as I see it. The first is that it is progressive. That is, it happens for each believer at the moment of death. The other possibility is that it occurs immediately prior to the Second Coming, near the same time as the judgment of the Sheep and Goats (see below). In this case, it is not for every person who has ever been justified from Creation to Consummation, but it is limited to those who have been justified from Creation to the Second Coming. Those justified after that time will take part in the Great White Throne Judgment. I lean to the former of these two, but, so far as my studies have taken me, either of these seems plausible.

The next major judgment (in order of importance) is the Great White Throne Judgment, as recorded in Rev. 20:11-15. It takes place after the Millennial Reign and coincides with the resurrection of the wicked. It is at this time that all the unrighteous, from Creation to Consummation (of that, there is no question) shall be resurrected and judged. It appears that everyone who takes place in this judgment will be condemned, but note that they are not condemned for their works as recorded in the books. Rather, they are condemned because they are not found in the Book of Life. I contend that their works are used to determine what the level of their punishment will be. The only extra comment we need on this is in the case that the bema seat is a one time event. That would imply that some justified people will take part in this judgement (those who survive the Millennial Reign and the events that follow). In that case, those in the Book would not be condemned, and their works would be judged in the same way as those in the bema seat judgement.

The final major judgement I see is the Sheep and the Goats, as recorded in Matthew 25:31-46. This judgement will apply only to those who have survived the Great Tribulation and are alive at the time of Christ's Second Coming. This judgement will determine who enters into the Millennial Kingdom. Some take this to be an eschatological judgement in that it determines salvation, while others don't (I'm in the latter camp).

Now, you asked specifically about two verses . . . Matt. 12:36 is a general warning concerning the universal nature of judgement. It does not limit itself to one particular event. 1 John 4:17 refers specifically to the bema seat. We know this because it is a reference to the judgement of Christians. The general rule for deciding which judgement a verse refers to is to find out the audience being addressed. If Christian, it refers to the bema seat. If unbeliever, it refers to the Great White Throne. If it relates to those entering into the Millennial Kingdom, it would probably be the Sheep and Goats. If general, it is simply a universal warning of the inevitability of judgement.

Next, you asked about the verses that deal with baptism and repentance . . . I have dealt with many of those in the "Seven Reasons . . . " thread and also the "Repentance and its necessity" thread, both in the Christian Theology board. Repentance is easier to deal with in that I can make a very broad statement: it is required to avoid the temporal wrath of God. In other words, in all cases, repentance from sin results in deliverance from chastisement, but it is NOT necessary for salvation. This is, of course, a very different view from most Protestants, but then again, most Protestants are Lordship Salvationists. I'm not.

Baptism is a little trickier only because you can't seem to lay down a general rule so easily. When Peter talks about it, he is usually referring to the Jews who had just killed Christ. As such, it was an expression of their identification with Him, which was necessary, again to avoid temporal judgement, because they had previously rejected Him. Context is the key in all of these. I thoroughly reject the notion that baptism washes away original sin. As a matter of fact, I hold that original sin has been removed from every human being who has ever lived already. I hold to Universal Atonement (1 John 2:2). For details on this position, see my discussion with Puritan Lad in the "Is Calvinism Heresy?" thread . . . especially on the first page, my formal argument against the position. In summation, I hold that man is not condemned for his sins, but rather for his unbelief, as death seals him in a state of spiritual deadness. It is belief in Christ, however, that results in the imputation of life--that is, the New Birth, as described especially in John 3. Through belief, we come alive in Christ . . . we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24). That is why the GWT judgement condemns to the Lake of Fire only those who were not found in the Book of Life.

Finally, you asked about the other verses that deal with works in general. Each of these would have to be taken on a case by case basis. Somewhere on this board I have offered a thorough exegesis of James 2:14-21. It shouldn't be hard to find in a search, and it will provide an example of how I take these types of verses. However, I would point out that Scripture cannot contradict itself, so if salvation is truly be faith plus works, then Eph. 2 and Rom. 4 must teach that same thing as well. That is why I try to avoid a proof-text method, because we end up with two people "stacking Scripture." The person with the biggest pile wins. That just is bad interpretation!

Let me just comment on one last thing. You said:
Like I said before, either we are saved and we do good works as a result, or we do good works and we are saved.
My position would not agree with this. I don't believe we do good works as a result of being saved, although most Protestants hold to this view. Read through the Lordship Salvation verses Free Grace thread for a thorough explanation of what I mean here. In my mind, we do good works because we love Christ and we want to, but this is in no way a necessary result of justification. To be pithy, we may say that "We do good works because we are saved; we do not do good works as a result of being saved." The subtle differences in the apparent synonyms in that statement should, hopefully, highlight my position. Phrased another way, I could simply say (and often do), "We should do good works because we are saved," which is very different from "We will do good works because we are saved."

For the record, I am in 100% agreement, though, with your statement that the two positions you contrasted are, in the end, the same thing. That is one of the reasons I believe like I do. In his book Absolutely Free, Zane Hodges said, "Anything that is a necessary result of an event is actually a condition of it." (Or something very similar . . . I may have the wording wrong).

Sorry for the length of this.

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
Fortigurn
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:29 pm

Post by Fortigurn »

Jac3510 wrote:Fortigurn, if I may ask you . . .

Is there a particular reason why you don't just fully concede to Byblos' argument as it relates to the Maccabean text?
Because the Maccabean text does not say what he claims. The very fact that Catholics deliberately quote the text out of context (omitting the reference to the resurrection as the reason for the prayers), demonstrates they know this.
It seems to me that he is exactly right.
In what way is he right? Where does that text mention purgatory? Where does it say that prayers offered for those in purgatory will get them out quicker? Where does it say that the prayers were offered to get the men out of purgatory quicker?

It doesn't say anything of the sort. It says they were offered on account of the ressurection, for the future reward of the Godly.
I would simply reject the text as Scripture in the same way I reject the oral traditions as authoritative. If the doctrine of purgatory isn't to be found in the rest of the Bible, I see no reason to accept it. If it is, we can have a rational discussion on those texts rather than on non-Scripture (as we see it).
The issue here is not simply that Catholics appeal to non-Biblical texts in their efforts to prove their doctrine, but that they misrepresent those texts they appeal to.

This is shocking behaviour from the church that claims to be the one true church which Jesus built.
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