Evidence for God from Science

Verses 40 and 41 is not possible in a post trib rapture! What does verse 34 have to do with the post trib view? I don't see that at all.

verse 34 says "this generation shall not pass away untill all these things have happened. where's the post trib rapture here? Jesus is talking about those who will be saved during the rapture. Its different than 1 Thes 4 it has to be or theres a contradiction.

Wayne, you are missing the whole point, so let me help you out.

First, I guess you could, in a sense, consider me "post-trib". (Very post-trib).

Second, In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said very clearly that the "great tribulation" would take place within the generation of those who heard these words. The Great Tribulation is over Wayne. It happened just as Jesus said it would. Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world, or about modern events (and neither is the Book of Revelation). Both books describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (See Matthew 24:1-3), but more on that later.

Isn't that great news Wayne? You don't ever have to worry about a future tribulation period or World dictator. Of course, if this news disappoints you, there are plenty of places in the world today where you can be beheaded for Jesus if that is your desire.

So which is it Wayne, is the Great Tribulation over, or was Jesus wrong in Matthew 24:34?

puritan lad wrote:Wayne, you are missing the whole point, so let me help you out.

First, I guess you could, in a sense, consider me "post-trib". (Very post-trib).

Second, In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said very clearly that the "great tribulation" would take place within the generation of those who heard these words. The Great Tribulation is over Wayne. It happened just as Jesus said it would. Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world, or about modern events (and neither is the Book of Revelation). Both books describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (See Matthew 24:1-3), but more on that later.

Isn't that great news Wayne? You don't ever have to worry about a future tribulation period or World dictator. Of course, if this news disappoints you, there are plenty of places in the world today where you can be beheaded for Jesus if that is your desire.

So which is it Wayne, is the Great Tribulation over, or was Jesus wrong in Matthew 24:34?

Why in the world was this not historically documented then? If something of this magnitude happened, where were the people not of the Bible to let us know? Surely everything about Jesus' second coming means that He would come like a thief in the night and that all these earthly disasters would take place, greater then ever known in HISTORY. So is Jesus coming a third time? Puritan lad, what makes you so sure you are correct? I myself don't claim anything, I just see your posts and you seem like you know it all.

puritan lad wrote:Wayne, you are missing the whole point, so let me help you out.

First, I guess you could, in a sense, consider me "post-trib". (Very post-trib).

Second, In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said very clearly that the "great tribulation" would take place within the generation of those who heard these words. The Great Tribulation is over Wayne. It happened just as Jesus said it would. Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world, or about modern events (and neither is the Book of Revelation). Both books describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (See Matthew 24:1-3), but more on that later.

Isn't that great news Wayne? You don't ever have to worry about a future tribulation period or World dictator. Of course, if this news disappoints you, there are plenty of places in the world today where you can be beheaded for Jesus if that is your desire.

So which is it Wayne, is the Great Tribulation over, or was Jesus wrong in Matthew 24:34?

Over? I don't think so!1 Matthiew 24 hardly says its over or happened in 70 ad! Was the anti-christ around in 70 ad? I don't think so! Did Jesus return in 70 ad? Thats really a strange view and I don't see any Biblical basis for that at all. Jesus talks about the rapture in verses 40 and 41 but earlier he is clearly talking about those who will be saved during the tribulation! Jesus isn't wrong at all but he certainly was not preaching a post trib rapture. What does verse 34 have to do with the post trib? I don't see that at all. If you look at the end of the chapter Jesus said that no one knows when the rapture happens. Yet the whole world will know if the post trib view is true. So is Jesus lying when he says no one will know when the son of man appears? Jesus will return for the saints in the clouds without touching the ground so maybe thats not a second coming. I see the second coming as one of judgement. In fact its a theme throught the scriptures. How in the world does a post trib relate to the elect if the second coming will be a judgement? We must be snached away in the clouds first because thats not the judgement. But at the end of the 7 year tribulagion there will be a judgement. How could any judgement by Christ have happened in 70 ad?

Thinker wrote: Why in the world was this not historically documented then? If something of this magnitude happened, where were the people not of the Bible to let us know? Surely everything about Jesus' second coming means that He would come like a thief in the night and that all these earthly disasters would take place, greater then ever known in HISTORY. So is Jesus coming a third time? Puritan lad, what makes you so sure you are correct? I myself don't claim anything, I just see your posts and you seem like you know it all.

Woah, Slow down fellows. Let's take one thing at a time. First of all, was Jesus correct or not? There is no getting around what He said in Matthew 24:34. The question is, do you believe Him?

Secondly. This was historically documented by Josephus and various Roman historians. I'll point this out later, but I want to get past this point of the "tribulation" first. How about these other prophecies?

Matthew 10:23
"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 16:28
"Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you (the high priest) will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Clearly, Jesus was talking about something that was to happen within the Apostle's generation (24:34), while some of them were still alive (16:28), before they finished going through the cities of Israel (10:23), that the high priest of the first century would see (26:64). What was Jesus taling about here (No, it wasn't His Second Coming - Acts 1:8)?

waynes world wrote:Over? I don't think so!1 Matthiew 24 hardly says its over or happened in 70 ad!

No, but it does say "this generation", not "2,000 years in the future".

waynes world wrote:Was the anti-christ around in 70 ad? I don't think so!

Where does it say anything about "the antichrist"? For that matter, what does the Bible say about "antichrist"?

waynes world wrote:Did Jesus return in 70 ad?

Not exactly. His Second Coming is a future event (Acts 1:8), which, believe it or not, is totally irrelevant to both Matthew 24 and Revelations.

waynes world wrote:Thats really a strange view and I don't see any Biblical basis for that at all.

As a former dispensationalist, I agree, but wait and give it a chance. That's why we are here. Are you willing to put your view to the Biblical test, or are you, like many, going for "pre-trib" rapture no matter what?

waynes world wrote:Jesus talks about the rapture in verses 40 and 41

No He doesn't, but let's deal with the time frame first.

waynes world wrote:How could any judgement by Christ have happened in 70 ad?

There are many scriptures to support that 70 AD was a judgment by Christ. For example, read the parable of the wicked vinedressers (Matthew 21:33-46, particularly verse 45). See also Matthew 3:7-10, Matthew 11:20-24.

Absolutely I'll put my pre-trib view to the test. And i still want to know how verses 40 and 41 of Matthiew 24 are possible in a post trib rapture? Those verses fit the pretrib view perfectly. Jesus said no one knows the hour he will return so the raptue has to come first. Otherwise if it comes at the end where's the suirprize since the whole world will see Christ and morn over him? What hope do we have as Christians if we have 100 pound hailstones falling on us? Where's the "blessed hope" in a post trib rapture that Paul talks about in Titus, I think chapter 2?

waynes world wrote:

puritan lad wrote:Wayne, you are missing the whole point, so let me help you out.

First, I guess you could, in a sense, consider me "post-trib". (Very post-trib).

Second, In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said very clearly that the "great tribulation" would take place within the generation of those who heard these words. The Great Tribulation is over Wayne. It happened just as Jesus said it would. Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world, or about modern events (and neither is the Book of Revelation). Both books describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (See Matthew 24:1-3), but more on that later.

Isn't that great news Wayne? You don't ever have to worry about a future tribulation period or World dictator. Of course, if this news disappoints you, there are plenty of places in the world today where you can be beheaded for Jesus if that is your desire.

So which is it Wayne, is the Great Tribulation over, or was Jesus wrong in Matthew 24:34?

Over? I don't think so!1 Matthiew 24 hardly says its over or happened in 70 ad! Was the anti-christ around in 70 ad? I don't think so! Did Jesus return in 70 ad? Thats really a strange view and I don't see any Biblical basis for that at all. Jesus talks about the rapture in verses 40 and 41 but earlier he is clearly talking about those who will be saved during the tribulation! Jesus isn't wrong at all but he certainly was not preaching a post trib rapture. What does verse 34 have to do with the post trib? I don't see that at all. If you look at the end of the chapter Jesus said that no one knows when the rapture happens. Yet the whole world will know if the post trib view is true. So is Jesus lying when he says no one will know when the son of man appears? Jesus will return for the saints in the clouds without touching the ground so maybe thats not a second coming. I see the second coming as one of judgement. In fact its a theme throught the scriptures. How in the world does a post trib relate to the elect if the second coming will be a judgement? We must be snached away in the clouds first because thats not the judgement. But at the end of the 7 year tribulagion there will be a judgement. How could any judgement by Christ have happened in 70 ad?

I'm not missing any point I just theink the view that Christ returned in 70 ad has no scripture to support it. Plus there's no historical evidence for it either.

waynes world wrote:Absolutely I'll put my pre-trib view to the test. And i still want to know how verses 40 and 41 of Matthiew 24 are possible in a post trib rapture? Those verses fit the pretrib view perfectly. ?

Those verses say nothing about a rapture. They are about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Remember, Wayne. ALL these things were to take place within the apostle's generation (verse 34). Some were taken captive, and others were left (killed).

waynes world wrote:Jesus said no one knows the hour he will return so the raptue has to come first. ?Otherwise if it comes at the end where's the suirprize since the whole world will see Christ and morn over him? ?

No one knows the hour of His return, so the "rapture" doesn't have to take place at all. When Christ returns, history will end.

2 Peter 3:10
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

There is not room here for a 7 year tribulation period or an "antichrist" world leader. When Christ returns, there will be a resurrection and a final judgement. That's it. No "left behind" stuff, (and no second chances.)

waynes world wrote:What hope do we have as Christians if we have 100 pound hailstones falling on us? Where's the "blessed hope" in a post trib rapture that Paul talks about in Titus, I think chapter 2?

Again, Wayne, the tribulation is over. This is history. I would post my entire exposition on Matthew 24 if I had room, but it is history. I'll post some similar prophecies from the Old Testament and see if you can draw a parallel.

Here are some examples of Apocalyptic Language in the Bible:

Isaiah's Prophecy against Babylon in 730 BC (Isa. 13:1)
- The day of the Lord is near (v.6)
- Hands fall limp, man's hearts melt, terror (v.7)
- Stars of heaven and constellations will not flash forth their light, sun dark when it rises, moon not shed light (v.10)
- Heavens shake, earth tremble (v.13)

Fulfilled when Cyrus the Persian takes Babylon in 539 BC (Daniel 5)

Isaiah Prophecy against Moab in 730 BC (Isa. 51:1)
- Green grass withers away (v.6)
- Waters full of Blood (v.8)

Fulfilled when Sargon of Assyria takes Moab in 715 BC

Isaiah's Prophecy against Egypt in 730 BC (Isa. 19:1)
- Lord riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt, the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence (v.1)
- River Dried Up (vs.5-6)

Fulfilled when Esarhaddan of Assyria takes Egypt in 671 BC

Jeremiah's Prophecy against Jerusalem in 620 BC (Jer 4:5)
- Sound of trumpet, alarm of war (v.5,19)
- He shall come up like Clouds (v.13)
- Heavens with no light (v.23)
- Mountains tremble (v.24)
- Heavens made black (v.28)
- A people is coming from the north, a great nation: Babylon (6:1,22) 14-16, 19,23-28

Fulfilled when Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon takes Jerusalem in 586 BC (2 Kings 24:10, Daniel 1:1)

Ezekiel's Prophecy against Egypt in 590 BC (Eze. 30:3-4)
- The day of the Lord is near (v.3)
- It will be a day of clouds (v.3)
- Rivers made dry (v.12)
- Day darkened (v.18)

Joel's Prophecy concerning the Day of Pentecost in 830 BC (Joel 2:28-32 + Acts 2:16-21)
- Great and awesome day of the Lord (v.31)
- Blood, fire, columns of smoke, sun into darkness, moon into blood (vs.30-31)

Filfilled at the Day of Pentecost in 30 AD (Acts 2)

Nahum against Nineveh (Capitol of Assyria) in 650 BC (Nahum 1:1)
- Clouds (v.3)
- Sea and rivers made dry (v.4)
- Mountains Quake, Hills Melt (v.5)
- Flood and Darkness (v.8) N

Fulfilled when Nineveh destroyed by the Medes and Babylonians in 612 BC

This should be enough examples to show that these events were never taken literally in the Old Testament, so why would anyone feel the need to take them literally in Matthew 24, while completely ignoring Jesus' clear statement in verse 34?

I don't see how in the world verse 34 of Matt 24 could mean that the rapure happened in 70 ad. If you look at the word generation in the Greek it could also mean "age" and age was a lot longer than 40 years. How do you explain 1 Cor 15 if the rapture already happened? Where's the evidence from history for a 70ad rapture? Why are Christians living at all? I don't see anything in the Bible that warrants the rapture happening in 70ad, especially in Matt 24 and especially verse 34. The problem is that Jesus often talked in parables using symbolic language and if thats the case here there is no case for a 70ad rapture. We are dead in our sins if there is no rapture!

puritan lad wrote:

waynes world wrote:Absolutely I'll put my pre-trib view to the test. And i still want to know how verses 40 and 41 of Matthiew 24 are possible in a post trib rapture? Those verses fit the pretrib view perfectly. ?

Those verses say nothing about a rapture. They are about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Remember, Wayne. ALL these things were to take place within the apostle's generation (verse 34). Some were taken captive, and others were left (killed).

waynes world wrote:Jesus said no one knows the hour he will return so the raptue has to come first. ?Otherwise if it comes at the end where's the suirprize since the whole world will see Christ and morn over him? ?

No one knows the hour of His return, so the "rapture" doesn't have to take place at all. When Christ returns, history will end.

2 Peter 3:10
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

There is not room here for a 7 year tribulation period or an "antichrist" world leader. When Christ returns, there will be a resurrection and a final judgement. That's it. No "left behind" stuff, (and no second chances.)

waynes world wrote:What hope do we have as Christians if we have 100 pound hailstones falling on us? Where's the "blessed hope" in a post trib rapture that Paul talks about in Titus, I think chapter 2?

Again, Wayne, the tribulation is over. This is history. I would post my entire exposition on Matthew 24 if I had room, but it is history. I'll post some similar prophecies from the Old Testament and see if you can draw a parallel.

The tribulation over? no way Jose! It hasn't begun yet. What hope do Christians have? Yt Titus talks about the "blessed hope." What else could that mean but the gathering of the saints to meet Christ in the clouds? Why else would Paul write 1 Thes 4? Nobody I know in my church anyway would say that the rapture is anything but pretrib and I say that fits the Bible the best and if you don't want to believe it thats fine but it works for me. It gives me hope something a post trib rapture could never do.

"A theif in the night" is about a pretrib rapture and the idea behind the "left behind" is the right one.

waynes world wrote:"A theif in the night" is about a pretrib rapture and the idea behind the "left behind" is the right one.

Read again Wayne.

2 Peter 3:10
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

Where is the pre-trib rapture?