Evidence for God from Science

Michelle, I wish to state I do agree more should be done to educate and help woman in difficult pregnancy situations. I do not wish to cause hardness between you and I on this topic, but I also see that of extreme importance is what the status (or value) of the unborn is. If the unborn child is equal in value to that of born humans, then while women may be in tragic situations, it is even more tragic if an innocent life is additionally taken. I am sure you could agree with me thus far?

Something I have noticed throughout your postings is that you seem quite receptive of Scripture. So I figure it would not hurt to add something further regarding the status of the unborn, particularly as found in Scripture. In Exodus 21:22-25 we have:
<blockquote>22 If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.</blockquote>I believe this is very good Scriptural support for showing the unborn baby is just as valuable as a born human being. Gleason Archer, a professor of the Old Testament, concludes of this passage:

There is no ambiguity here, whatever. What is required is that if there should be an injury either to the mother or to her children, the injury shall be avenged by a like injury to the assailant. If it involves the life (nepes) of the premature baby, then the assailant shall pay for it with his life. There is no second-class status attached to the fetus under this rule; he is avenged just as if he were a normally delivered child or an older person: life for life. Or if the injury is less, but not serious enough to involve inflicting a like injury on the offender, then he may offer compensation in monetary damages...

What Exodus 21:22 Says About Abortion (recommend full article)

I'd also recommend reading the article, Exodus 21:22-25: Translations & Mistranslations by Dr. Gary Butner, to discover more on this passage which strongly favours treating the unborn human life equal to that of a born human life.

Kurieuo

PS. A PowerPoint slideshow, which I would also recommend which I believe summarises the issue well can be found at http://www.swordandspirit.com/LIBRARY/P ... ofetus.ppt

Michelle wrote:Thanks for setting me right about the Bible verse!

You're welcome.

Michelle wrote:I am very new to this kind of thing. Even though I became a Christian many years ago because of the domestic situation I was in I couldn't grow very far ( I wasnt allowed to have a Bible).

That's tough... Can you tell us why not?

Michelle wrote:There was a lot of brainwashing in that situation (I think that sometimes it might come out in some of my posts). Anyway when I finally got up the courage to leave the first person who came to visit me unfortunately was a real Bible basher (as opposed to someone who just knows a bit of scripture). I dont mind anyone talking about God in my home, however this person quoted over forty verses in ninty minutes and would not let me even have formal introductions between each other. It sort of scared me a bit into not getting a Bible myself.

No, you didn't come across as a brainwashed person, really. I've read brainwashed Christians, and rest assured, you're nothing like them.
You know, when you have questions about the Bible, you can always post them here, or look around on the Internet -- and writing down the arguments of opponents is always a good thing to do.

Michelle wrote:I only recently bought myself a Bible and try and read it more than twice a day. At the moment however I have what they call information overload and have trouble remembering verses, let alone fully understanding them. I have taken on too many things I guess. I think though this will sort itself out once I have my semester break.

Keep reading your Bible, praying and trusting...things will turn out right. Keep heart! I look forward to further posts from you.

Kurieuo -- thanks for the input! Very compelling, as always.

Turgonian wrote:

Michelle wrote:Thanks for setting me right about the Bible verse!

You're welcome.

Michelle wrote:I am very new to this kind of thing. Even though I became a Christian many years ago because of the domestic situation I was in I couldn't grow very far ( I wasnt allowed to have a Bible).

That's tough... Can you tell us why not?

Michelle wrote:There was a lot of brainwashing in that situation (I think that sometimes it might come out in some of my posts). Anyway when I finally got up the courage to leave the first person who came to visit me unfortunately was a real Bible basher (as opposed to someone who just knows a bit of scripture). I dont mind anyone talking about God in my home, however this person quoted over forty verses in ninty minutes and would not let me even have formal introductions between each other. It sort of scared me a bit into not getting a Bible myself.

No, you didn't come across as a brainwashed person, really. I've read brainwashed Christians, and rest assured, you're nothing like them.
You know, when you have questions about the Bible, you can always post them here, or look around on the Internet -- and writing down the arguments of opponents is always a good thing to do.

Michelle wrote:I only recently bought myself a Bible and try and read it more than twice a day. At the moment however I have what they call information overload and have trouble remembering verses, let alone fully understanding them. I have taken on too many things I guess. I think though this will sort itself out once I have my semester break.

Keep reading your Bible, praying and trusting...things will turn out right. Keep heart! I look forward to further posts from you.

Kurieuo -- thanks for the input! Very compelling, as always.

Thanks for your sincere kindness! When I say I was not allowed to have a Bible it was because my ex despised anyone he considered decent and Christians and Church goers were among those people. He used to rant and rave about how they are just a bunch of do gooders. HE would start off drinking and then the verbal abuse would continue for hours. Eventually he would pass out from the effects of the alcohol, wake up a few hours later and start being abusive again. It was sort of like six hours on of abuse then three hours off, and six hours on again. As well if I couldn't stay awake for up to three days at a time he would become very spiteful. There wasn't much that I could really do at the time because he had isolated me away from everyone by renting a farm, and as I didn't have any form of transport (although he did) I just had to put up with everything.


When someone verbally abuses a person for a very long time to the extreme that he did, often it is like beng brainwashed. That was what I was referring to, not actually being a brainwashed Christian. He had done this almost every day and night for well over twenty years. Aside from the verbal abuse he was extremely violent. The abuse would include trying to stop me from eating, telling me everybody hates me, and so on. My weight went down to just under thirty-six kilograms and he was telling me I look great like that. However if I tried to eat anything he would accuse me of trying to be fat! Eating was allowed only once every two to three days, and only very small amounts at a time. Put that together with extreme sleep deprivation and it was very easy for him to brain wash me into thinking the way he wanted. I became too frightened to even have a Bible because I was so afraid of what he might do.

However I believe God works in amazing ways because a guess a miracle happened. After being treated the way I was for a very long time my body eventually suffered the cost and I became quite ill. I ended up having to beg him just to seek medical help because I barely had the strength to get out of bed. For some strange reason he agreed, something that he wouldn't normally do. As well he agreed to let me go alone. It was then that I told the doctor what was occurring. Also strangely, a few months earlier he had even suggested that I return to school to complete my education (after having begged him for years) so I could earn more, so I did. It was at the TAFE college there that my year twelve teacher told me to go see the doctor because I was so ill. I told her what was going on and she said just one thing to me: "if you stay with this man you are going to die". It was a real eye-opener and I knew that what she was saying was true.

Apart from that I kept looking at my kids and seeing the effect it had on them. It was then that I made the decision to leave him. My year twelve teacher was wonderful and so were the other students (all adults), as they even pretended that there was an extra class on several times so that I could organize everything to get away. They helped get me on to the emergency housing list for domestic violence cases. I remember though that the most frightening time of all was actually the few weeks leading up to when my house came up.

Anyway, that is in the past and now things are going ahead for my kids (now grown up) and myself. I know that there are going to be constant reminders of what I went through but I will get through.

I'm shocked.

I hope your life will be fruitful in Christ's power and the wounds will heal. You gave me a reminder not to take a sheltered life for granted...and not to assume I have any right to discuss the Problem of Pain... May God bless you and show you His love!

Turgonian wrote: I'm shocked.

I hope your life will be fruitful in Christ's power and the wounds will heal. You gave me a reminder not to take a sheltered life for granted...and not to assume I have any right to discuss the Problem of Pain... May God bless you and show you His love!

Thanks for your kind remarks. Sorry I have taken a while to reply, however I am currently in the process of completing a postion paper as well as studying for uni exams so I am going to be off-line for a while. I am doing off campus with an almost non-existent lecturer! He actually gave some feedback last week! And I have been given the wrong page numbers for my text-books as well, so am having trouble locating the material.

Michelle wrote:Sorry I have taken a while to reply, however I am currently in the process of completing a postion paper as well as studying for uni exams so I am going to be off-line for a while. I am doing off campus with an almost non-existent lecturer! He actually gave some feedback last week! And I have been given the wrong page numbers for my text-books as well, so am having trouble locating the material.

Hmm, brings back memories!
All the best for your exams, Michelle. Hope you do well in them despite the obstacles and frustrations.