Evidence for God from Science

Welcome to the board Ruth.

As I hope you read in the whole thread, my point is not that there are not benefits and principles within the law that bear following and bring benefit.

My point is one of the motivation and reason to follow law.

You'll have to explain the me your reasoning as the finished work of Christ.

Are you suggesting that there is any element in terms of the atonement that Christ has not fulfilled that is waiting for his second coming? If so, kindly affix some scripture and explain where Paul was wrong or out of context in Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18

If that is the case in terms of the law, are you consistent and do you advocate or continue the sacrificial system?

What is your position in terms of salvation and Sabbath-Keeping or any other element of the law?

Cause or effect?

Here's the passages referenced above:

New International Version (NIV)
Romans 6:14

14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Romans 7:1-14

Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Galatians 3:10-13

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[a] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[c] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[d]

Galatians 3:24-25

24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Galatians 4:21

21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Galatians 5:1

Galatians 5
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:13

13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

You Go Ruth

Hello all,

I just wanted to make a few comments on something said earlier.

If you can keep the law perfectly (and you can't) then you don't need Christ.

Not true. Everyone will commit sin in this life (Rom. 3:23), therefore even if someone could keep the law perfectly - which by the way is righteousness (Deut. 6:25, Ps 119:172, Is. 48:18), they still depend on God's offering of His son the Christ to pay for the sins they already have committed. Thus trust (faith) and dependence for salvation always remains in God through Christ.

Keeping the law perfectly logically equates to not committing sin as per 1 John 3:4, but doing so does not earn anyone salvation, never did, never will. Salvation is by faith in God through Christ and faith is demonstrated by our level of trust in God, which in turn is demonstrated by how much we live our lives according to God's will, which is outlined by the spiritual principles in the law.

In short, if we trust God we will live as He has commanded, if we don't - we won't.

If Christ has kept the law on your behalf you no longer need to base your righteousness on anything but Christ.

The Bible does not teach substitutionary righteousness. We are judged righteous based on our faith that God will raise us from the dead because the sacrifice He provided in His son, the Christ, He declares to be sufficient to pay our debts to the law. Thus we are deemed righteous by faith in the substitutionary sacrifice given in our place, not Christ doing for us what we are called to do - namely practicing righteousness until the ends comes, as it is wrtitten.

If you are asserting that Christ has kept the law on our behalf, in other words, he has obeyed the commandments so we don't have to, I would ask that you provide at least two scriptural witnesses that say precisely that. Which, as we all know is not possible. If it were, no texts would have been given that even infer we ought to obey God - which many, many do including some offered previously on this thread.

Here are three undeniable verses,

“And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32, NKJV).

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us (1 John 3:24, NKJV).

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:2-3, NKJV).

R7-12

Sounds right to me.

[quote="Canuckster1127"]Welcome to the board Ruth.

As I hope you read in the whole thread, my point is not that there are not benefits and principles within the law that bear following and bring benefit.

[i]The whole MC Law of Almighty God is Holy just and good.
Ruth[/i]


My point is one of the motivation and reason to follow law.

[i]The Law is a loving gift from God. I will not reject His gift that has brought me so many blessings when I follow it. YHVH said in Jer.31 that when He makes the NC when He returns, He will write His Torah, His MC Law, on the hearts and minds of the houses of Israel and Judah. Micah 4 says that Law will go forth from Zion to the nations. There is no way I can reconcile not obeying His Law now when it will be required in the end times.
Obeying the MC Law never promised salvation only blessings.
Ruth[/i]

You'll have to explain the me your reasoning as the finished work of Christ.

Are you suggesting that there is any element in terms of the atonement that Christ has not fulfilled that is waiting for his second coming?

[i]There are 2 comings of the Messiah, one as Savior (the suffering servant- Is.53) and 1 as the King who sits on the throne of David in Jerusalem. He fulfilled only the prophecies of the first coming.
His Name when He came the first time was Yeshua, YHVH saves or Salvation.
Zech.14 says that it is YHVH that returns to Mt.Zion as Yeshua promises to do in Matt.24. I'm thinking, He will come by the Name of YHVH when He returns.
Ruth[/i]


If so, kindly affix some scripture and explain where Paul was wrong or out of context in Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21;

Gal.5:1, 13;

[i]You are not suggesting that the Holy, just and good MC Law of God can be called a "yoke", are you?
Paul is speaking here about the same issue he went to the Jerusalem council about, adult circumcision /conversion to become a Jew, being required for salvation. Adult circumcision is not a MC Law, only 8th day circumcision was required by God in the MC.
Ruth[/i]

2 Cor. 3:7-18

[i]Paul says the ministry of the MC by Moses was a glorious thing.
However, there was no provision within it that provided everlasting life.
Ruth[/i]


If that is the case in terms of the law, are you consistent and do you advocate or continue the sacrificial system?

[i]Jer.33 says that there will always be Levitical priests to offer burnt sacrifices as long as there is day and night.
We may not offer animal sacrifices except in Jerusalem, where God designates His altar is allowed to be and administered by only those He allows to act as priests.
But believers have Yeshua who has promised to forgive us when we repent and ask Him.
Ruth [/i]


What is your position in terms of salvation and Sabbath-Keeping or any other element of the law?

[i]As I said, there is only one Way to be saved, through the promised Seed, Yeshua who died as our atonement so we can return past the flaming sword to Paradise and the tree of Everlasting life.
The 7th Day, the Sabbath, is the only day of the week that God said is His Holy Day.
A man was stoned at God's direction for gathering/ carrying a load of sticks on the Sabbath.
You decide how you think God wants you to honor His Holy Day.
In the end times, Scriptures say that from Sabbath to Sabbath, all will worship Him.
Ruth [/i]
Ruth



Cause or effect?

I believe that when we come to true belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He becomes Lord of our life and we love Him with all our heart, mind soul and strength. I can see no way within that relationship for me to ever want to disobey anything He says.
Knowledge of His love that went so far as to come and die in my place, is the cause of my complete surrender to Him.
Ruth

Here's the passages referenced above:

[quote]New International Version (NIV)
Romans 6:14

14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Romans 7:1-14

Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.


[i]The MC Law was given as a guide how to live well here on earth only.
Ruth[/i]

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

[i]
The Law, refered to here is named in verses 21-25:
I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present, for I delight in the Law of God after the inward man: but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.
So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the Law of God;
but with the flesh, the law of sin.
Ruth[/i]


7What shall we say, then? Is the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, opportunity taking, through the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

[i]This is the same thing that happened to Adam and Eve. Only one commandment is needed to become a sinner, stained by sin, and not fit for everlasting life in Paradise.
Ruth[/i]

[i] 12Therefore, the Law is Holy, and the commandment is Holy, righteous and good. 1

3Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Yeshua the Messiah our Lord.
So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the Law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ruth[/i]

Galatians 3:10-13

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[a] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[b] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[c] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[d]

Galatians 3:24-25

24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[i]It says"...we are no longer under a tutor".

You do realize that God in Scripture said He gave the MC Law for many other reasons? As a way to find the Messiah, it may not be needed once we find Yeshua, but the Laws other purposes and benefits are still needed.
Ruth[/i]


Galatians 4:21

21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

[i]It says, "Tell me, you wanting to be under law, do you hear what the Law says?"
Ruth[/i]


Galatians 5:1

Galatians 5
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

[i][see above][/i]


Galatians 5:13

13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love.

[i]Believers are freed from the death penalty we deserve as sinners through the atoning death of yeshua.
Ruth[/i]

2 Corinthians 3:7-18

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.[/quote][/quote]

[i][see above]
Ruth[/i]

[quote="FFC"][quote]1John 5:3says, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not burdensome."
Ruth [/quote]

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.


[i]John is clearly differentiating btween the persons of the Trinity in 1John5:
1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Ruth[/i]

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Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


[i]These are part of the commandments of God that John is saying, those who love God will obey.
Verse 8 says, "Owe nothing to no one, if not to love one another. for the one loving the other, a Law has fulfilled.
9) For you shall not commit adultery. You shall not kill. You shall not covet and if there is any other commandment in this word, it is summed up in the 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'".
10) Love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love is a fulfillment of a Law.
Ruth[/i]
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1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

[i]And this is His Commandment that we should believe in the Name of His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and should love one another as He gave us commandment.

"His Commandment (singular) not plural as in 1John 5:3.
Ruth[/i]
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2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it .[/quote]



[i]2John 1:4
I rejoice greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, just as we received commandment from the Father.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that in it, ye should walk.
Ruth[/i]

Ruth and Gary,

I'll work through some of what you've placed up. Especially in terms of the Mosaic Covenent.

It would help me to put some context to our discussion.

First, do you and Gary know each other?

Second, do either of you belong to a specific church, demonination or organization that promotes your specific understanding of these issues?

Information about me is available on the Introduce yourself thread and thoughout my postings. You don't have to disclose this if you don't want to , but it helps to put some information to what otherwise is just glowing words on a phosphorescent screen.

I'll get to a detailed response over the weekend as I'm limited today and will be out of town tomorrow.

God Bless,

Bart

[quote="Canuckster1127"]Ruth and Gary,

I'll work through some of what you've placed up. Especially in terms of the Mosaic Covenent.

It would help me to put some context to our discussion.

First, do you and Gary know each other?


[i]I do not know Gary if his real name is Gary.
Ruth[/i]

Second, do either of you belong to a specific church, demonination or organization that promotes your specific understanding of these issues?

I belong to a Messianic Jewish Congregation.
Ruth

Information about me is available on the Introduce yourself thread and thoughout my postings. You don't have to disclose this if you don't want to , but it helps to put some information to what otherwise is just glowing words on a phosphorescent screen.

I'll get to a detailed response over the weekend as I'm limited today and will be out of town tomorrow.

God Bless,

Bart[/quote]

Hello all,

Just wanted to address another comment made here a few days ago.

Jesus kept the law so we could be freed from our keeping it as a basis of our salvation.

Could you tell us where you got that from?

As far as I know there isn't a single text in the entire word of God that even implies that salvation could be achieved through observance of the commandments.

I would be very interested in seeing what texts are used to support that argument.

Thanks,
R7-12

No I don;t know Ruth.

And I don't have a denomination.

I don't have time to give you more right now. but I'll get back to you.