Evidence for God from Science

Its the big executives controlling the meat companies.


I forgot, those dudes too... Ok, maybe more them than the actual farmers. I highly doubt they went into a meeting about this to stamp out world hunger.. I think the only hunger they were looking at was the hunger of their wallets...

G -

Gman wrote:Its the big executives controlling the meat companies.


I forgot, those dudes too... Ok, maybe more them than the actual farmers. I highly doubt they went into a meeting about this to stamp out world hunger.. I think the only hunger they were looking at was the hunger of their wallets...

G -

Is the efficient use of resources and producing surplus agricultural products capable of feeding more people than one's own direct market, only legitimate when there is no profit motive?

Yes, give credit where credit is due. Hormone use in livestock has increased the productivity of farms, increasing mass and maturity times of calves. This has lead to the increase in availability of meat products throughout the world.

But the taste of the product has suffered, and the animals themselves are not growing up in a natural way. At this point the tradeoffs are debateable, but give a few more years of population growth and the world may become dependant on this source of protein.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Gman wrote:Its the big executives controlling the meat companies.


I forgot, those dudes too... Ok, maybe more them than the actual farmers. I highly doubt they went into a meeting about this to stamp out world hunger.. I think the only hunger they were looking at was the hunger of their wallets...

G -

Is the efficient use of resources and producing surplus agricultural products capable of feeding more people than one's own direct market, only legitimate when there is no profit motive?

Profits are very handy that way. Unfortunately, some would rather give the money to the government instead of allowing businesses to make money. We all know how the state has our best interest at heart. (Just ask a Native American). Save us again Uncle Sam...

High Everyone,

Thanks for replying bluesman. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you but I got the feeling from some of your words that you didn't care about animals. Now I know you do.

I'm so glad that you get your meat from those farms . Its much better.

I also want to make clear that I do not believe just anything I hear, I am not a gullable woman I try to weigh and measure everything I hear.

Just the fact that they have (downers industry term) that can not walk who are electrical prodded and still cant get up who are dragged off the tuck break pelvics and legs left for hours to suffer because they cant euthenize them until a vet gets there and most times they don't even for profit loss.Is enough for me

We are under the assumption that are livestock is cared for. Like you said why would they mistreat them its there lively hood. I always felt the same way.



I have not seen pictures I have seen tons of videos of cruelty that I did not know happened. They are hard to watch but I have to. When I watched these videos I could no longer deny that this is cruel.

There are good farmers out there like you said but like I said before 90% of our food comes from factory farms.

Also what you mentioned about the pesticides are true, but realize that these factory farms use huge amounts of pesticides they have to spray the factorys all the time because of the confinement which gets in the feed which gets on and in the animals that we eat.

I'm not as smart as you guys I have a very limited education but I am not stupid. I have a good sense of right and wrong.

We can not stop these corporations but we can have a voice. I want animals treated humanely,put out of their suffering, transported more efficiantlely (for the animals). I want the humane slaughter act enforced,and animals given fresh air sunlight and exercise, and given vet treatment when they are sick.

If we can go to the moon we can make a better system for the animals we eat. But nothing will happen if we do nothing. The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Its all about the MONEY. Cheap product made cheaply. Yes it will cost us more but it is our duty to them. Maybe a couple less hot dogs and hamburgers. Maybe pasta and veggies with some delicious bread and awesome salad one night a week.

Also those two books I recommended are good they are not radical.


Thank you and God bless all of you

Vicky

Unfortunately, some would rather give the money to the government instead of allowing businesses to make money.

Big corporations could care less about enviromental issues, unless the government warned them about something. The only thing they worry about is MONEY and STOCKS. And not all Christians are here to support their views..

Now I'm not saying we should wipe out the big corps and rely on the government alone. We need checks and balances in both groups in order to survive. Having one without the other would fail. And that is what makes America great...

G -

victoria brady wrote:We can not stop these corporations but we can have a voice. I want animals treated humanely,put out of their suffering, transported more efficiantlely (for the animals). I want the humane slaughter act enforced,and animals given fresh air sunlight and exercise, and given vet treatment when they are sick.

If we can go to the moon we can make a better system for the animals we eat. But nothing will happen if we do nothing. The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Its all about the MONEY. Cheap product made cheaply. Yes it will cost us more but it is our duty to them. Maybe a couple less hot dogs and hamburgers. Maybe pasta and veggies with some delicious bread and awesome salad one night a week.

How can you not support this.

Is the efficient use of resources and producing surplus agricultural products capable of feeding more people than one's own direct market, only legitimate when there is no profit motive?

Or wrong profit motive... True Canuckster, however how would you define the efficient use of resources? If they were efficient and all the scientists agreed we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Its really hard for me to comment on video and books I have not seen,
but I would have some questions to ask.

Why has more mainstream media not picked up this story?

Why hasn't say Frontline for example covered this?

What has been the industry's response to these allegations?

I would say that the industry been accused of violations must responded to either disprove the accusations or repair the problem.

I would think the buyers of this meat would not like these violations.
You have to understand a quick humane kill is the best for the animal , profit, and quality.
The animal needs to be killed quickly and then bled quickly to maintain the quality of meat.

Given the industry's response to the Mad Cow disease I wouldn't understand them if they allowed this poor practice to happen.

Michael Thomas

http://www.factoryfarm.org/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... ailarticle

http://www.hsus.org/farm/camp/nbe/

http://www.meat.org/?c=1107

High everyone,

Bluesman I posted some links you might be interested in. You have no idea how hard this was for me.

I had my sixteen year old daughter trying to teach me how to send links. My fingers are numb and my patience is done. I finally think I got it.

Well anyway I think the reason the media covered the madcow story was because it is a public health issue. Animal suffering doesn't get as much attention as it should.

I do know that the book I was telling you about (slaughterhouse by gail. A . eisnitz) tryed to get main stream to show the video footage and they said it was to graphic.

There are also many organizations trying to get better living conditions for the animals. I also want to make clear that peta is very radical I do not agree with alot of their methods sometimes I think they may be doing more harm then good. That said we have to give credit where credit is do and they have brought attention to issues maybe we are not aware of.

The meat industry is a huge corporation and it is not easy to take them on. I know there are people lobbing all the time in washington for these issues.

I don't have all the answers. I'm just a consumer trying to do what is right and just I have no agenda other then to care for what God gave us.

If I am being mislead about the cruelty then help me out here. Tell me this is a big lie there is no issue we are not exploiting animals .

I think most of us agree there is a need for reevaluation of our morals. If not why so many books on the subject all of these people are not wrong.

Let me ask you bluesman do you think everything is fine. If so how did you come to that conclusion. Your perception might be totally different from mine. I think beating baby seals to death with poles with hooks at the end is wrong what do you think.

Also begood for goods sake your right how can we not support that.

God bless all of you

vicky

I think beating baby seals to death with poles with hooks at the end is wrong what do you think.

I have not seen first hand so I can only tell you what I have learned.
The young baby White coats are no longer harvested.
When you say "beating" you probably are thinking that it takes many strokes
to kill the animal.
What happens from my understanding is that the first blow severes the nerves between the spine and brain and breaks the neck. It is actually suppose to be more humane than using a gun.
Now because of the public outcry the "less humane" method with a gun is used.
From a science point the population of seals is probably much to high and can use the harvest.
Harvesting of young animals in any wildlife population is the best for the maintenance of the population.
I know the general public doesn't like "babies" harvested . Its something called the "Bambi" syndrome.
You have to also know that the meat from the seal is used and not just the fur.

I do know that the book I was telling you about (slaughterhouse by gail. A . eisnitz) tryed to get main stream to show the video footage and they said it was to graphic.

I find this very hard to believe. I have seen very graphic footage on tv showing humans even. I think there might be another reason not been told.

Let me ask you bluesman do you think everything is fine. If so how did you come to that conclusion.

The short answer is that I haven't been on the inside of a big operation so I don't know for sure. The problems are that the Animal Rights movement in the past has operated from extreme point on a emotional basis as compared to knowledgable science basis.
Having heard to many false claims its up to those making accusations to prove to me this is happening.
The accusations are so extreme and make no sense from even a business profit sense. Bad practices in handling animal on the killing floor results in spoiled meat which should be caught by the inspectors.

Having said that I think the meat industry also owes us a response to the accusations. I do know that we need more meat inspectors who do their
jobs better.

I think the wrong response is to give up eating meat because of this.
Instead chose where and who you buy your food from.

Thanks for the links I will have to check them out.

Michael
Thomas

bluesman wrote:The short answer is that I haven't been on the inside of a big operation so I don't know for sure. The problems are that the Animal Rights movement in the past has operated from extreme point on a emotional basis as compared to knowledgable science basis.
Having heard to many false claims its up to those making accusations to prove to me this is happening.
The accusations are so extreme and make no sense from even a business profit sense. Bad practices in handling animal on the killing floor results in spoiled meat which should be caught by the inspectors.

What accusations are you speaking of?

The transportation of animals depicted in the video is accurate, animals do arrive sick and injured and even dead, especially chicken.

The slaughterhouse depiction is a little out of date, the cows as well as the hogs are killed with a bolt gun device before they're bled.

The operations are as efficient as lumber yards, and the animals are processed in the same manor, quickly and without regard for their welfare. Their number is up anyways.

I don't see an alternative to the slaughterhouse, however transport methods need to change don't you think?

Also the cramped conditions for pigs are terrible, but what is the alternative? Factory Farms are at once a marvel of human ingenuity and a statement of how merciless we can be.

I looked at the websites that you posted as much as I could with slow dial-up.

You said you don't real agree with PETA yet you post a video from Peta TV.
Anyways, I couldn't see the video because I have dial-up.

The WashingtonPost site article about growing meat in a Lab.
Come on give me a break! Thats was a very radical article.
Read the Old Testament. They were mostly shepards who raised and ate sheep.

I don't want to read Vegan sites. The beatle guy Paul who thinks Not eating meat will solve all our problems! Do you real believe that ?

Now the Factory Farm site I can agree more with. Keep eating meat and eggs, but buy from a better source. Organic farming in many situations is the way to go. Just not farming for meat, but all farming.
I think the site refers to sustainable farming and I am all for farmers who have quality in mind.

As far as the killing floor, I would think a Bolt Gun if used properly the animal would not feel anything after.

As far as transportation and handling just prior to killing could stand for improvement. Causing a "Downer" animal prior to killing is not good for profit either.

I get my meat now from a local abattoir and problems from transportation are minimal and the quality is superior.

Michael

On doing some further research I wish to retract my support of the
factoryfarming.org website.

The problem comes from the parent group who put the website together.
Although I always support better and humane treatment of animals ,
You need to be aware and watch for hidden agendas.

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm

The above is a site that points out the hidden agenda of the parent
activist group Farm Sanctuary.

Victoria Brady, you might have heard of this group they have a
head office right in your home state of New York.

If you wish I can make you aware of the problems
with Peta and the HSUS of which you provided links for.

If you are concern about animal welfare at least balance
your research with groups other than
extreme animal rights groups.

If you need help with that , I will help provide the links.

Michael

hello everyone,

I read your post bluesman and I'm sorry I offended you. The article about growing meat I posted because I had no idea what it meant I never heard of it. So I have no opioion thought maybe you guys would know. I should have said that.

I would be interested in altering views but it seems that everyone winds up debating whos right and wrong. I wind up with no answers for the animals.

I totally agree that stopping eating meat is not the answer. I have no right to tell you what to eat and if I have I am sorry.

I am truley thankful for all of the dialouge and perspective that I get from all of you.

I want you to understand that I am not a pansy. I do not live under the assumtion that there can be no suffering in this world animals must die along with humans.

I have seen video footage of horses being slaughterd and although it made me sad I didnot see inhumane treatment. I have seen videos of pigs being stunned and then slaughterd and to me although sad it did not seem inhumane.

I don't want you to think that I am not logical. I do try to be objective. balance things. I know that there are ridiculous people in this world I dont understand what brought them to were they are but they are there non the less.

We cannot despise every thing that they stand for pick and choose. I know that these organizations have agendas but what do they really want. No less then churches might want. Please do not misinterpet me it's just an analogy.

To reject all of there "beefs" is ignorant. That is what the world does to us christians . Labels us meanwhile the world is still unsaved animals are still mistreted and nothing gets done.

Anyway I wanted to send you a video of the seal hunt. Its from peta so dont watch it if you dont want thats your choice.
ttp://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video= ... speed=_med

The link you sent me I have seen before and also the consumer freedom site. Allof these are good arguments but nobody solves the problem every body just fights. Maybe its the fear from each side that the other will win .

I dont know can somebody please find a way to solve these issues. I want a hamburger.:':lol:'

thank you and God bless
vicky