Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:35 pm**

hfd wrote:Not to encourage the moderators' wrath, but, I have a question on the literal day issue in Genesis. How would those of you who reject that meaning interpret Ex 20:11? Am I to believe that the days spoken of (the same word is used as in Genesis) in Exodus are not literal? The same question arises for the following verse when it speaks of the 'thy days may be long...' Again the same word is used.

The flood speaks of forty days and forty night using the same word for day. Are these literal days? Are they ages? Or are they simply a designation of an unspecified amount of time.

Finally, in the NT Jesus is in the wilderness for forty days while being tempted by the devil (. Do you view those days as literal? And yes, I realize we re dealing with different languages.

Gen 1:14-19. “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.” KJV

Checkmate…
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Posted: **Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:41 pm**

B. W. wrote:
hfd wrote:Not to encourage the moderators' wrath, but, I have a question on the literal day issue in Genesis. How would those of you who reject that meaning interpret Ex 20:11? Am I to believe that the days spoken of (the same word is used as in Genesis) in Exodus are not literal? The same question arises for the following verse when it speaks of the 'thy days may be long...' Again the same word is used.

The flood speaks of forty days and forty night using the same word for day. Are these literal days? Are they ages? Or are they simply a designation of an unspecified amount of time.

Finally, in the NT Jesus is in the wilderness for forty days while being tempted by the devil (. Do you view those days as literal? And yes, I realize we re dealing with different languages.
Gen 1:14-19. “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.” KJV

Checkmate…
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I'm afraid I miss your point. You've only addressed one of the issues.

Posted: **Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:52 pm**

hfd wrote: I'm afraid I miss your point. You've only addressed one of the issues.

Gen 1:14-19. “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
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Posted: **Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:26 pm**

B. W. wrote:
hfd wrote: I'm afraid I miss your point. You've only addressed one of the issues.
Gen 1:14-19. “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
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so they were literal days? I'm afraid I'm a little confused myself.

Posted: **Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:51 pm**

FFC wrote:
B. W. wrote:
hfd wrote: I'm afraid I miss your point. You've only addressed one of the issues.
Gen 1:14-19. “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
so they were literal days? I'm afraid I'm a little confused myself.

Here - the Hebrew word for day is used like this:

1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning
1b2) as a division of time
1b2a) a working day, a day's journey
1c) days, lifetime (plural)
1d) time, period (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow

[Above From E-sword]

Now note the context of Exodus 20:11, “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.” KJV

For in six days — word days in Hebrew is a Plural /noun — Days.

Next, rested on the seventh day in Hebrew is written as a definite article with a prefixed preposition hence translated day — single.

Now it was not until the 4 day in Genesis we have 24 hour period — The Exodus verse in question covers this fact in the usage of grammar usage which coincides with Genesis 1:1-14 usage of the word translated day — it is written in such a manner it covers it the plural days-lifetimes-indefinite period of time not specified.

The word translated 'day' basic meaning in ancient Hebrew is “an indefinite period of time” which context and grammar is used to refine and define how long this indefinite period of time is. We use the word much the same way: day and night, day, the Day of Days, In my day disco was king, Her day will come, I can't wait till the day the cows come home, Many days from now, It will take days, and so on. No questions asked - we understand the context it is used in without confusion.

For years, many have attempted to uses the same bible verses that hfd used in an attempt to prove the bible - a contradiction. This is as old as the hills and very predicable.

Again, the bible stands in no need of correction concerning the ancient Hebrew word translated for us as the word - day. Learn a little bit of Hebrew before making claims hfd. Now re-read Genesis 1:1-19 and you may see what I mean.
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Posted: **Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:58 am**

From the ICR site.

"... whenever "day" is modified by a number, like second day or six days, it can only mean a true solar day. There are no exceptions in Hebrew. Any uncertainty is resolved in the Ten Commandments as God commands us to work six days and rest one day just as He worked on the six creation days and rested on day seven (Exodus 20:11)."

Is the above wrong. If so, why? Thank you.

You have still not addressed the other issues concerning 'day'.

Posted: **Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:10 am**

hfd wrote:From the ICR site.

"... whenever "day" is modified by a number, like second day or six days, it can only mean a true solar day. There are no exceptions in Hebrew. Any uncertainty is resolved in the Ten Commandments as God commands us to work six days and rest one day just as He worked on the six creation days and rested on day seven (Exodus 20:11)."

Is the above wrong. If so, why? Thank you.

You have still not addressed the other issues concerning 'day'.

hfd,

The above is wrong and here's why.

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/sixdays.html

Claim: Yom with a number (ordinal) always refers to 24 hour daysThe claim has been made that when yom is used with a number, it always refers to a 24-hour day:

"Outside Genesis 1, yom is used with a number 410 times, and each time it means an ordinary day—why would Genesis 1 be the exception?"1

Let's look at some notable exceptions to this "rule," just using the first day as an example. The number used for "first day" is the Hebrew word echad,12 which means "one." The first exception to the "rule" is found in Genesis 29:20, where echad yom refers to a period of seven years that Jacob served Laban to obtain Rachel.13

In the book of 1 Samuel, David says that he "will perish one day [echad yom] by the hand of Saul."14 Obviously, David was not expecting to die in exactly 24 hours. In fact, David was never killed by Saul, but died of old age many decades later.

A prophecy from the book of Daniel describes the demise of the ruler of the Syrian kingdom, Seleucus Philopator, the Son of Antiochus the Great. According to Daniel 11:20, "within a few days [echad yom] he will be shattered."15 The reign of Seleucus actually lasted 12 years16 - a relatively short period of time, but certainly not 24 hours!

There are several examples where echad yom refers to the Day of the Lord - a period usually interpreted as being seven years in length.17 Specific examples that specify a period of time longer than 24 hours include the following:

'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day [echad yom]. 'In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'" (Zechariah 3:9-10)

For it will be a unique day [echad yom] which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. (Zechariah 14:7-8)

"He [the Lord] will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him. (Hosea 6:2)

If we are to interpret echad yom as referring only to a 24 hour day, then people will only be able to invite their neighbors over during one 24 hour period of time. Obviously, Zechariah 3:9-10 refers to an extended period of time. Later in his book, Zechariah describes this "one day" as being "in summer as well as in winter." This verse clearly indicates that this "one day" must be at least six months in length. The third example above is somewhat difficult to interpret, but is often interpreted as representing long periods of time. Gill's commentary says,"...these two and three days may be expressive of a long and short time, as interpreters differently explain them; of a long time, as the third day is a long time for a man to lie dead..."18 These six examples clearly establish that when yom is used with a number it does not always refer to 24-hour days.

Would you please explain why you are cutting and pasting arguments from a site whose beliefs you challenge on many other levels, and yet here making an appeal to their authority?

It appears to me that you are here simply to argue for inconsistency and are willing to use any source you can to accomplish your purpose and when your response it answered or challenged you simply move onto an new argument rather than resolving and completing the one you started with.

Are you here to communicate and willing to adjust your thinking or are you here simply to argue?

Bart

Posted: **Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:35 pm**

B.W. wrote:Now it was not until the 4 day in Genesis we have 24 hour period

Good post, B.W., that definately made me think... but are you saying that from day 4 on they were 24 hour days?

Posted: **Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:50 pm**

"Would you please explain why you are cutting and pasting arguments from a site whose beliefs you challenge on many other levels, and yet here making an appeal to their authority?"

What belief of theirs have I challenged? Have I challenged a literal creation? How about a young earth? Have I defended evolution? Have I in any way questioned the character or professionalism of any of the staff and faculty at ICR? I don't think so. Please provide a link to support your claim that I have.

Posted: **Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:02 pm**

hfd wrote:"Would you please explain why you are cutting and pasting arguments from a site whose beliefs you challenge on many other levels, and yet here making an appeal to their authority?"

What belief of theirs have I challenged? Have I challenged a literal creation? How about a young earth? Have I defended evolution? Have I in any way questioned the character or professionalism of any of the staff and faculty at ICR? I don't think so. Please provide a link to support your claim that I have.

Did you not state:

1. I am a Creationist because of evidence
2. I am ambiguous in my beliefs about Jesus.
3. I cannot in good conscience see a compatibility with the teachings of Jesus and those of Paul.
4. I do not accept, based on history and facts, various rituals within the 'Christian' churches.
5. I reject the idea, again based on historical fact, that Jesus is unique in religious philosopy and only Jesus is 'The Way.

Perhaps you should take a look at the ICR statement of faith and see how well this and some of your use of their material match.

Posted: **Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:01 am**

FFC wrote:
B.W. wrote:Now it was not until the 4 day in Genesis we have 24 hour period
Good post, B.W., that definately made me think... but are you saying that from day 4 on they were 24 hour days?

That is how I read it and the usage of the word translated 'Day' in the Ten Commandments 'quote' can be used to describe the Genesis account without any flaws or loop holes.

Here is an example of what I mean with the word 'bread' — "I need some bread" and someone hands me a loaf. I tell them no — "I need bread a little dough!" Then someone hands me a lump of bread dough. I tell them no — I need bread. Bread is a term for money and so is dough. I was asking for money and not real bread.

In the world of biblical studies we come across words translated from one language and culture to another and another. Example: If some one read an ancient manuscript about wanting some bread and rejecting it, I am sure the meaning is lost to the modern reader. Soon modern people are pragmatically arguing over the word 'bread' and saying — he means 'bread' another says he means 'dough' and both miss that the word can be used to describe a multitude of things in the context of its native language and culture that is lost to us.

The ancient Hebrew word for day is not used in same manner as the bread example. However, how the word is used can uncover its meaning as long as you read its original meaning first — an indefinite period of time. After this, you can play around with its meaning according to the context that it is written.

Here is another one — the Hebrew day ended and began at sundown — due to the earth's rotation the actual hour for sundown changes day by day. Remember they did not have Timex and Rolex or the Atomic Clock to keep time with in ancient days. We have that problem and look at it as a matter of time, seconds, minutes, and not as entire days, seasons, years…as they did.

Hope this makes sense…

I forgot to mention — when you read the Ten Commandments about the word Days used in verse in question, the Ancient Hebrew person would correlate it to Genesis chapter One and Two. The word 'Day' would encompass all the time it took for Creation — indefinite period of time of the first three days of creation to the first earth day — sundown to sundown of the forth day then gives a picture for the reason of the Sabbath Rest that God desired for men and women.

The word translated 'day' used in Exodus verse in question encompasses a wide array of meaning in its plural form which also lines up with the Genesis account of creation — hence its context. We do not think in the same ancient Eastern mindset of putting it into a 'whole' to derive a single point of truth or reference. We compartmentalize — not whole-ize word meanings.

The ancient Hebrew is more descriptive and iconic and thus can encapsulate a wide array of meaning in single word. Our modern western languages are more pragmatic and scholastic which is evident how we think and reason things through.
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Evidence for God from Science

Poll on Creationist Beliefs