Abortion: Ayn Rand Institute

[RoyLennigan]

Having to quote lines to prove your point only means that you can't find support in the world around you for your cause. This, to me, is a weakness in logic and belief. If you can't relate the bible to the world around you, then it is useless. Rather than quote a line, why don't you relate an experience in which biblical advice has helped you personally?

I see your point. And I agree if our focus is only on the world and how we treat and relate to our fellow man, then you have very valid points. But I believe the Bible is more than about our success and happiness in this life. I think it is most importantly about our eternal destiny.

There are many verses that are very clear about what happens to us after we die. About judgement, sin and the consequenses - both temporal and eternal. We can relate to, and experience the temporal ones. And the temporal results and consequenses apply to all men regardless of their eternal destiny.

But the eternal consequenses require faith. And this faith is to take the Word of God over our own. We cannot truly take our experiences of life and and apply them eternally unless we have Faith.

As I experience life, I view it as a strive for balance between faith and adaptation. On one hand, we know that we must do things in our environment to survive; on the other, we know we must have faith in the relationships we've discovered--such as a relationship with god for instance. But both of these ideals are necessarily for our survival. If we do not have faith, then we have anarchy. If we do not adapt, then we have stagnation or death.

You speak of "eternal destiny"... would an eternal destiny be harmony with all things? Wouldn't harmony with all things bring harmony with god? So then why wouldn't happiness coincide with our eternal destiny?

Consider all philosiphies and religions in the world. All but one says to get to Heaven one must do good. Christianity teaches that we cannot be good enough, no matter how hard we try. And that only God is good.
Understanding these 2 points can you see how Christians would interpret these verses (Matthew 7:13-14,John 6:28-29) that trusting in Jesus is the only way.

Matthew 7:13-14
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 6:28-29
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Do you believe a person can know for sure if they a going to heaven?Do you believe you will?
Do you believe we are all sinners and deserve hell?

I believe that a person cannot know if they are going anywhere for certain.
I believe that what I experience (if that is what you can call it) after death will be very different but not wholly unlike what I experienced in life.
I believe that we all deserve to be shown the true repercussions of our actions, including the effects from the perspectives of others.

Have you ever heard a clear presentation of the Gospel that made sense to you?

If not, ....
I would not be so presumptuous to share if you are not open to listening, but if you are please let me know. You can PM me and I will respond next time I am on line.

Thank you,
Jeff

It depends on if I am going by what think the words mean, or what I gather that the person speaking thinks the words mean. I have heard many different interpretations of the Gospel that I didn't quite agree with, but only because they put their own idiomatic spin on it. I, myself, can read the bible and associate such that it makes sense to me. I think the reason we all disagree is because the things we associate to the words we speak are different--so the words mean different things to us when said. We all remember different experiences that we associate to a particular word. These discrepancies, even though seemingly small, create large differences in the perceptions they paint in our minds. When we speak or write, we're all saying different things with the same words. Its very confusing.

[RoyLennigan]

It is interesting. This kind of thing makes me want to go into theological research myself. I am very interested (as well as blessed with skill) in languages. Having tentatively picked up a couple languages already, I know that words just cannot be translated from language to language and mean exactly the same as they were written. The idioms and metaphorical relationships with the actual world can only be explained in that particular culture as they were written. But I also know that there are dedicated people out there who look for those unspoken meanings.

I too believe that things can mistranslated in time... In fact there are some things that the Bible doesn't specifically address either. However, what I believe is that the framework of the Bible still stands.. Christ is an example of that framework and how we should treat one another.. And his framework permeates and is understandable through all cultures and languages..

Who do you look up to?

Yes, his framework permeates cultures through the stories and examples of his actions. He is our lord because he was an example. The truth is not in the words, but in the translation of his actions.

I look up to my father and to anyone who has talent and uses it to help others because they feel they have to, not just because they want to help for whatever reason.

Oh I wouldn't go that far... Some things are black and white. We all agree that murder or beating up on someone because they are of a different race is wrong...

Yes, but where do we draw the line between murder and self defense, or murder and war? Does the bible say anything about war? There are so many grey areas in the real world where we should find clean lines if it were so easy to recognize as the bible distinguishes. Especially when it is you in the situation in question.

It is in these grey areas that I think it is our duty to find which action to take that has the least conflict with our 'eternal destiny'. And the only people who have the right to decide what action to take are those most directly affected by the outcome. Though I do believe it is the duty of others to reasonably persuade those directly affected through words, logic, and examples based on what they know pertaining to the basic situation.

Abortion seems to be one of the issues caught up by looking at the details. But it is only an issue (to me) in the stance we are looking at in this thread. To decide which is more important, the happiness and goals of a conscious and violated woman, or the life of an unborn child. To me, the only time an abortion should occur at all is in the week or two after conception anyways. But who am I to decide? This last is a question that I wish everyone would ask, even if they are christian and it seems contrary by the bible. It seems more important to me to understand and accept the decision of a person concerning their own life.

And what about the happiness and goals of the unborn child?

Is that a question you think you know the answer to? I think this is where our philosophies genuinely divide. I believe that we, as humans or simply as living matter, do not have individual souls. I believe that we are all parts of God, limited by our physical senses and the structure of our minds. I believe that upon death, we are 'awoken' and can see all causes and effects--we as an individual are no more, but our energy, the essence of our individual beings, becomes one again with the almighty.

It is because of this that I agree with abortion in some cases. I agree with it because I know that not bringing another life into this world is okay. There are so many possibilities that don' happen anyway, you don't have to worry about the possible actions of an unborn child. There are so many children that are born and live everyday, you don't have to worry about one, especially if it isn't wanted. There are so many children that are born and not cared enough for, simply because there are too many people in the world already. And you don't have to worry for its soul, because its soul is part of everyone of us. If the child doesn't experience anything, it will through you.

But I only agree with abortion so far. If an irrational person wants to have an abortion, I say go ahead--their child is most likely going to turn out just as irrational, especially if they have to take care of it. If a woman is raped and doesn't want to have the child, especially if she is young and it could be deadly, then go ahead with an abortion, just so long as its done in the first couple of weeks. Why do I agree with these things? Because not agreeing will only cause more conflict, more work to do, more unhappiness, and more frustrated people. Though there is the occasional happy outcome, this is why I advocate pro-choice--that everyone has their own choice and isn't forced into some ideal they don't agree with.

Not neccessarily. Do you need to quote lines to say that Jesus loves you, or that we should all live peacefully, or that God is all-powerful?

Yes as a matter of fact I do... And how do I know that? Because that is what the Bible is saying... How do you think man came to know God in the first place?

By communicating with the earth, the stars, the moon, the seasons, the life around them, and pretty much everything. Christianity isn't the first ideal to claim the existence of God, if you didn't know. I know that I don't speak to god by quoting lines.

Having to quote lines to prove your point only means that you can't find support in the world around you for your cause. This, to me, is a weakness in logic and belief.

No... We study the Bible to find the reasons behind the lines.. Not just blindly follow them. If you really want to own the lines you have to experience what they mean in your life..

I agree with this.

If you can't relate the bible to the world around you, then it is useless. Rather than quote a line, why don't you relate an experience in which biblical advice has helped you personally?

True... As for me I have many many experiences in which Biblical advice has helped me... As an example, when I was an evolutionist I never really did care much for the homeless. Now I see that this was a mistake and they are human beings as well.. They too are created in the image of God just like everyone else.. You see all people are created in the image of God. They are not accidents and have meaningful lives just like everyone else...

Yes, I agree. But when I was merely an evolutionist, I still saw people like this--that everyone was human, no matter where or who they were or what condition they were in. I saw people for what they were good at, as well as for what weaknesses they betrayed themselves. But because I saw this in everyone, I didn't make fun of anyone, or become too attached to anyone. It wasn't until I began finding motivation and the spiritual relationship with everything that I let myself be swayed by these experiences. That is why I am here now, because I let my newfound faith sway me into motivation. Whereas before, I would only observe what the world is like, now I really feel it.

But, like I said before, life is a constant balancing act between faith and adaptation. I used to constantly adapt, storing relationships I viewed in my head and modifying them based on what I experienced. But now that I use those relationships that I know--now that I have faith in them--I am motivated to do more, but at the expense of being wrong sometimes.

As humans, we can only strive, we can never actually be something.

Yes, I have, and they are good rules to live by. But they are not rules that everyone will adhere to, not even all christians. It just against our nature.

You don't think that loving your neighbor as yourself are not good rules to live by? It is against our nature to love our neighbor as ourself, so therefore the rule shouldn't apply to everyone? I really don't understand this logic...

Read again, I said they were good rules to live by. But I also said that not everyone will think so, and you can't persuade them all. It is against our nature to love our neighbor as ourself and so the rule doesn't apply. Doesn't matter if it should or not--that's just how it works.

Personally, I think it should be stated as: Love your neighbor as they want to be loved, not as you want to be loved. This is how I act everyday and I cannot remember the last time I met someone I disliked or who disliked me.

And I know that it is sinful to give into you nature, but it is impossible. Those that say otherwise are decieving themselves of their true selves. Instead of shunning that nature, we should understand it so that we can work around it, try to wean off it so that maybe somewhere down the line, we will have taught ourselves to live without sin. Because obviously absolute non-tolerance isn't working.

Yes, we are all still capable of doing evil things.. I think you are forgetting an important factor... It's not that we are looking to obtain a good self image of ourselves as the world may see it.. What we are seeking to obtain in an accurate self image of ourselves... This is a more healthy position..

Yes, I agree. An accurate self-image would be much more productive than a good self image. But I just don't see this in most of the world. Especially in a religion such as christianity in which a large chunk believes they are now "good" simply because they believe Jesus is their savior, not because they base their actions on Jesus' actions. There are just too many people who take things for granted. I am not saying this of you, but it is just what I've observed around where I live.

But I would like to say that Christians are generally the most accepting and helpful people I've ever met. This is why I hate that so many people are giving the belief a bad name, both atheist and theist.

But looking at the bible will not give you all the answers either. You need both, relating to each other. Personally, I feel a lot closer to God while walking through the woods, or along the beach than I do when reading the bible.

I think you can find God in nature as well... In fact if you look at the seasons it spells out God's plans as well... Like death and resurrection are equal to winter and spring. But you need to understand the Bible first to find the reasons behind it sometimes... There is more to life than just the five senses..

Yes I strongly agree with this, except perhaps that you must read the bible to figure some things out. I believe that there are ways of experiencing the world that you can figure out much, if not everything in the bible. Though it would take coincidence or all of your life plus more to learn it all. I still believe its possible to find the truth without the bible, though the bible may be a very grand and gracious shortcut.

I know that there are many people who would not find these truths if it were not for the bible. But I know many people who have found these truths and more without reading the bible. It all depends on the person and where/how they grew up.

[Gman]

Yes, his framework permeates cultures through the stories and examples of his actions. He is our lord because he was an example. The truth is not in the words, but in the translation of his actions.

I look up to my father and to anyone who has talent and uses it to help others because they feel they have to, not just because they want to help for whatever reason.

The truth comes from the word of God.. Not only do we need to understand it's message but apply it to our lives like you said.. Also feelings and emotions have very much to do helping others.. And hopefully we help others for the RIGHT reason too. Not just to show off and advertise it on TV to others to show how special we are..

You know what amazes me Roy? Someone can read the Bible and call it all garbage while someone else reads it and understands it to be the word of God.. Take the Amish as an example.. They read the scripture everyday and apply it to their lives. Remember the shooting awhile back when that crazed guy came storming into their school and killed three girls there? What people didn't realized was that later over 70 of the Amish came to attend that gun man's funeral and pay tribute .. Now who in their right mind would do such a thing? I know that even myself wouldn't have the guts or nerve to do such a thing...

Yes, but where do we draw the line between murder and self defense, or murder and war? Does the bible say anything about war? There are so many grey areas in the real world where we should find clean lines if it were so easy to recognize as the bible distinguishes. Especially when it is you in the situation in question.

You might have lost me here.. Roy have you ever read the Bible before? The God of the Bible is extremely anti-war... However, war can occur when all the other options are exhausted.. And this only happens after many many warnings. Tell me, do you think we should support our police force? In some cases they are forced to draw their guns to shoot and kill.. They do this to protect the innocent. Also do you believe that WWII was justified?

It is in these grey areas that I think it is our duty to find which action to take that has the least conflict with our 'eternal destiny'. And the only people who have the right to decide what action to take are those most directly affected by the outcome. Though I do believe it is the duty of others to reasonably persuade those directly affected through words, logic, and examples based on what they know pertaining to the basic situation.

Yes, it may be our duty, but we also have to see if it aligns with what is right too. As an example I might think it is fun to ride my mountain bike through someone's flower bed. But the person who owns the flower bed would probably disagree..

Is that a question you think you know the answer to? I think this is where our philosophies genuinely divide. I believe that we, as humans or simply as living matter, do not have individual souls. I believe that we are all parts of God, limited by our physical senses and the structure of our minds. I believe that upon death, we are 'awoken' and can see all causes and effects--we as an individual are no more, but our energy, the essence of our individual beings, becomes one again with the almighty.

It is because of this that I agree with abortion in some cases. I agree with it because I know that not bringing another life into this world is okay. There are so many possibilities that don' happen anyway, you don't have to worry about the possible actions of an unborn child. There are so many children that are born and live everyday, you don't have to worry about one, especially if it isn't wanted. There are so many children that are born and not cared enough for, simply because there are too many people in the world already. And you don't have to worry for its soul, because its soul is part of everyone of us. If the child doesn't experience anything, it will through you.

Especially if it isn't wanted? Children are always wanted by God Roy, we have no right to interfere how God brings a child into the world... These are human beings we are talking about..

But I only agree with abortion so far. If an irrational person wants to have an abortion, I say go ahead--their child is most likely going to turn out just as irrational, especially if they have to take care of it. If a woman is raped and doesn't want to have the child, especially if she is young and it could be deadly, then go ahead with an abortion, just so long as its done in the first couple of weeks. Why do I agree with these things? Because not agreeing will only cause more conflict, more work to do, more unhappiness, and more frustrated people. Though there is the occasional happy outcome, this is why I advocate pro-choice--that everyone has their own choice and isn't forced into some ideal they don't agree with.

Roy we don't always know what type of future that child may have had.. We can't always assume it will be the worst...

By communicating with the earth, the stars, the moon, the seasons, the life around them, and pretty much everything. Christianity isn't the first ideal to claim the existence of God, if you didn't know. I know that I don't speak to god by quoting lines.

By communicating with the earth you are really acknowledging God.. And when you acknowledge God you are quoting scripture.. Actually now after reading this I think I'm going to start quoting scripture more..

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been created, so that men are without excuse.

Would you like some more?

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Yes, I agree. An accurate self-image would be much more productive than a good self image. But I just don't see this in most of the world. Especially in a religion such as christianity in which a large chunk believes they are now "good" simply because they believe Jesus is their savior, not because they base their actions on Jesus' actions. There are just too many people who take things for granted. I am not saying this of you, but it is just what I've observed around where I live.

While I will agree with you that some Christians believe that they are above it all and are arrogant and misguided, I will have to disagree with you that Christianity teaches that after you believe that Christ is your savior you are now good... Nothing could be further from the truth Roy. When we accept Christ, we are simply forgiven.. However, Christians are still capable of extreme evils.. In fact the great apostle Paul before his death and at the end of his life stated that there was NOTHING good in him. As he got closer to God, all he could see was the blackness of his own soul..

Frankly I'm offended that you call Christian's good..

But I would like to say that Christians are generally the most accepting and helpful people I've ever met. This is why I hate that so many people are giving the belief a bad name, both atheist and theist.

Yes that is true, however I may also agree with them that Christians are capable of doing evil things too..

I know that there are many people who would not find these truths if it were not for the bible. But I know many people who have found these truths and more without reading the bible. It all depends on the person and where/how they grew up.

True, as I have stated in my other posts I know some people that don't even know that God exits and they are some of the nicest and trustworthy people I've met.. Can I share a secret with you Roy? My belief is that if they are practicing love in their life, then they really are Christians even though they don't hold that title...

I happen to love to make things simple... Did you know that the Bible's message can be condensed into a few words? Look how Christ put it...

Luke 10:26-28

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Now that wasn't hard was it?

Yes, I agree. But when I was merely an evolutionist, I still saw people like this--that everyone was human, no matter where or who they were or what condition they were in. I saw people for what they were good at, as well as for what weaknesses they betrayed themselves. But because I saw this in everyone, I didn't make fun of anyone, or become too attached to anyone. It wasn't until I began finding motivation and the spiritual relationship with everything that I let myself be swayed by these experiences. That is why I am here now, because I let my newfound faith sway me into motivation. Whereas before, I would only observe what the world is like, now I really feel it.

My evolutionist experience was a bit different from yours it seems... But I'm glad that your newfound faith swayed you into a motivation.. May I ask what your faith is?

But, like I said before, life is a constant balancing act between faith and adaptation. I used to constantly adapt, storing relationships I viewed in my head and modifying them based on what I experienced. But now that I use those relationships that I know--now that I have faith in them--I am motivated to do more, but at the expense of being wrong sometimes.

Well you are not the only one who as been wrong... I can attest to that...

As humans, we can only strive, we can never actually be something.

Oh I think in God's eyes we can be.. But let's let God be the judge of that....

[RoyLennigan]

Let me first off say that it is a pleasure debating with you, Gman, because of your tact and patience. It is relaxing to get right to the point and not to have to deal with petty arguments. Thank you.

Yes, his framework permeates cultures through the stories and examples of his actions. He is our lord because he was an example. The truth is not in the words, but in the translation of his actions.

I look up to my father and to anyone who has talent and uses it to help others because they feel they have to, not just because they want to help for whatever reason.

The truth comes from the word of God.. Not only do we need to understand it's message but apply it to our lives like you said.. Also feelings and emotions have very much to do helping others.. And hopefully we help others for the RIGHT reason too. Not just to show off and advertise it on TV to others to show how special we are..

You know what amazes me Roy? Someone can read the Bible and call it all garbage while someone else reads it and understands it to be the word of God.. Take the Amish as an example.. They read the scripture everyday and apply it to their lives. Remember the shooting awhile back when that crazed guy came storming into their school and killed three girls there? What people didn't realized was that later over 70 of the Amish came to attend that gun man's funeral and pay tribute .. Now who in their right mind would do such a thing? I know that even myself wouldn't have the guts or nerve to do such a thing...

Yes, perhaps we can learn from them. Maybe they spend so much time living a lifestyle so like that which the bible condones, that they just know how act right. And, it seems to me, to really know how to act right is something that comes to you in the situation itself, but not at other times; its almost like a conditioned emotional response.

Yes, but where do we draw the line between murder and self defense, or murder and war? Does the bible say anything about war? There are so many grey areas in the real world where we should find clean lines if it were so easy to recognize as the bible distinguishes. Especially when it is you in the situation in question.

You might have lost me here.. Roy have you ever read the Bible before? The God of the Bible is extremely anti-war... However, war can occur when all the other options are exhausted.. And this only happens after many many warnings. Tell me, do you think we should support our police force? In some cases they are forced to draw their guns to shoot and kill.. They do this to protect the innocent. Also do you believe that WWII was justified?

I must admit that I have never read the bible completely. I have read but pieces here and there and I have just begun to start reading it from the beginning. But I still feel like I have a valid say in a place like this simply because of the wide variety of experience I've had directly with God's creation.

I know that love is the theme of the bible and that love at its greatest brings understanding. Understanding is the opposite of conflict. I also believe in the words of Isaac Asimov when he wrote "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." But at some point we are all incompetent as to the answer to the situation. We are limited beings after all.'

I think that our police force should be more localized and that our domestic laws should also be more localized. I think that people should take the law into their own hands more often, through a working community that strives to understand all its inhabitants. This is not what I see today.

I believe that we should have acted sooner that we did in WWII, either to stop Hitler's forces from gaining momentum before the war actually started, or simply by deploying troops sooner. We were selfish and unaware of others' needs back then. But I think that we (as a country) are even more so today, with the addition of being intrusive and pedantic.

It is in these grey areas that I think it is our duty to find which action to take that has the least conflict with our 'eternal destiny'. And the only people who have the right to decide what action to take are those most directly affected by the outcome. Though I do believe it is the duty of others to reasonably persuade those directly affected through words, logic, and examples based on what they know pertaining to the basic situation.

Yes, it may be our duty, but we also have to see if it aligns with what is right too. As an example I might think it is fun to ride my mountain bike through someone's flower bed. But the person who owns the flower bed would probably disagree..

But if you truly loved everyone as Christ said we should, then you would not think it was fun to ride your bike through someone's flower bed. You might have those subtle desires, but they would be overridden by the understanding (through love) that that person would be very upset.

Is that a question you think you know the answer to? I think this is where our philosophies genuinely divide. I believe that we, as humans or simply as living matter, do not have individual souls. I believe that we are all parts of God, limited by our physical senses and the structure of our minds. I believe that upon death, we are 'awoken' and can see all causes and effects--we as an individual are no more, but our energy, the essence of our individual beings, becomes one again with the almighty.

It is because of this that I agree with abortion in some cases. I agree with it because I know that not bringing another life into this world is okay. There are so many possibilities that don' happen anyway, you don't have to worry about the possible actions of an unborn child. There are so many children that are born and live everyday, you don't have to worry about one, especially if it isn't wanted. There are so many children that are born and not cared enough for, simply because there are too many people in the world already. And you don't have to worry for its soul, because its soul is part of everyone of us. If the child doesn't experience anything, it will through you.

Especially if it isn't wanted? Children are always wanted by God Roy, we have no right to interfere how God brings a child into the world... These are human beings we are talking about..

I am not for abortion in cases where teens accidentally get pregnant from having consensual sex. They should have known what the effects were going to be. I am not for it simply if the mother changes her mind.

I'm sorry, but I do not feel remorse for the children that do not exist. I would advocate abortion in extreme cases as long as it is done within the first week or two. I am strongly opposed to forcing someone to sacrifice their life for another who was forced upon them in the first place. To me, it is as if all christians are on the side of the rapist in cases like this.

And even though you believe that all children are born tabula rasa, that is not so true as you may think. Regardless, we are all born with sin, are we not? Even though that's not the point, I would be less inclined to bring into the world the child of a rapist simply because I would rather his genes not make it to the next generation.

But I only agree with abortion so far. If an irrational person wants to have an abortion, I say go ahead--their child is most likely going to turn out just as irrational, especially if they have to take care of it. If a woman is raped and doesn't want to have the child, especially if she is young and it could be deadly, then go ahead with an abortion, just so long as its done in the first couple of weeks. Why do I agree with these things? Because not agreeing will only cause more conflict, more work to do, more unhappiness, and more frustrated people. Though there is the occasional happy outcome, this is why I advocate pro-choice--that everyone has their own choice and isn't forced into some ideal they don't agree with.

Roy we don't always know what type of future that child may have had.. We can't always assume it will be the worst...

But we can't assume the best either. Children die everyday. If christians ran the world and forced every child to live, ignoring the repercussions of cause and effect, then we would be overwhelmed by people who just don't care about life. If people and children didn't die because of their actions, or the actions of their parents, then life would be pretty dull. No one would care. No one would take risks.

Look at the US. We don't have to care about life and death situations anymore so we have become distant and unaware of how great life actually is. We take it for granted because we are safe. Most people don't do anything monumental or important nowadays.

If we let everyone live, then the really unique and the really inventive would be crowded and overlooked because of the hordes of 'average' people. I call them average not because of any inherent ineptness, but because they just don't care as much as you or I do.

By communicating with the earth, the stars, the moon, the seasons, the life around them, and pretty much everything. Christianity isn't the first ideal to claim the existence of God, if you didn't know. I know that I don't speak to god by quoting lines.

By communicating with the earth you are really acknowledging God.. And when you acknowledge God you are quoting scripture.. Actually now after reading this I think I'm going to start quoting scripture more..

But I know it without the words. I don't need the words to know it. In fact, using the words only limits and puts a barrier on the actual force of it.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been created, so that men are without excuse.

Would you like some more?

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

It makes sense to me and I know how to relate it to my actual experiences, but it doesn't paint as pretty a picture as the actual thing. That is why I'd rather communicate with God by shouting from the highest mountain.

Yes, I agree. An accurate self-image would be much more productive than a good self image. But I just don't see this in most of the world. Especially in a religion such as christianity in which a large chunk believes they are now "good" simply because they believe Jesus is their savior, not because they base their actions on Jesus' actions. There are just too many people who take things for granted. I am not saying this of you, but it is just what I've observed around where I live.

While I will agree with you that some Christians believe that they are above it all and are arrogant and misguided, I will have to disagree with you that Christianity teaches that after you believe that Christ is your savior you are now good... Nothing could be further from the truth Roy. When we accept Christ, we are simply forgiven.. However, Christians are still capable of extreme evils.. In fact the great apostle Paul before his death and at the end of his life stated that there was NOTHING good in him. As he got closer to God, all he could see was the blackness of his own soul..

Frankly I'm offended that you call Christian's good..

I didn't mean to say that christianity actually teaches you that you are saved just by believing Christ is your savior. I just meant that a frighteningly large amount of Christians believe this. Then they believe in it superficially. I would not call them christian, even though they do. But I haven't really seen anyone like that on this site.

But I would like to say that Christians are generally the most accepting and helpful people I've ever met. This is why I hate that so many people are giving the belief a bad name, both atheist and theist.

Yes that is true, however I may also agree with them that Christians are capable of doing evil things too..

Yes, we all do evil things, but mostly because we are unaware of their sinful nature, or we are constrained by biological instinct (which I would compare to our sinful nature as humans). I believe that the ones who are truly sinful--meaning, the ones who will go to hell--are the people who just don't care and don't motivate themselves to figure it out.

I know that there are many people who would not find these truths if it were not for the bible. But I know many people who have found these truths and more without reading the bible. It all depends on the person and where/how they grew up.

True, as I have stated in my other posts I know some people that don't even know that God exits and they are some of the nicest and trustworthy people I've met.. Can I share a secret with you Roy? My belief is that if they are practicing love in their life, then they really are Christians even though they don't hold that title...

I happen to love to make things simple... Did you know that the Bible's message can be condensed into a few words? Look how Christ put it...

Luke 10:26-28

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Now that wasn't hard was it?

I would agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I have striven and still strive (by my own nature and what I have experienced) to love and understand (which mean pretty much the same thing to me). All else is unimportant.

Yes, I agree. But when I was merely an evolutionist, I still saw people like this--that everyone was human, no matter where or who they were or what condition they were in. I saw people for what they were good at, as well as for what weaknesses they betrayed themselves. But because I saw this in everyone, I didn't make fun of anyone, or become too attached to anyone. It wasn't until I began finding motivation and the spiritual relationship with everything that I let myself be swayed by these experiences. That is why I am here now, because I let my newfound faith sway me into motivation. Whereas before, I would only observe what the world is like, now I really feel it.

My evolutionist experience was a bit different from yours it seems... But I'm glad that your newfound faith swayed you into a motivation.. May I ask what your faith is?

I am not quite so sure. It is spiritual in nature, but I cannot pin it down to anything that exists. Basically it includes the main idea of almost all religions I've run into. That we must love each other as well as God. I see everything and everyone as equal, but equal in that they all must be treated as they want to be treated. Even things have motivations, you just have to find them.

But, like I said before, life is a constant balancing act between faith and adaptation. I used to constantly adapt, storing relationships I viewed in my head and modifying them based on what I experienced. But now that I use those relationships that I know--now that I have faith in them--I am motivated to do more, but at the expense of being wrong sometimes.

Well you are not the only one who as been wrong... I can attest to that...

As humans, we can only strive, we can never actually be something.

Oh I think in God's eyes we can be.. But let's let God be the judge of that....

Yes, I would agree.

Talking to you and others with a similar perspective, I feel as if I am venturing into another language, or point of view. It is like I am discovering a new path to the same center that I have glimpsed before. It fills me with a sense of unity.

[Gman]

Sorry to keep you hanging Roy... I didn't forget our conversation, I've been a bit bogged down with a few other things lately..

Let me first off say that it is a pleasure debating with you, Gman, because of your tact and patience. It is relaxing to get right to the point and not to have to deal with petty arguments. Thank you.

Likewise.. Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot there earlier. You appear to be both professional and respectful.... I will try to behave the same.

Yes, perhaps we can learn from them. Maybe they spend so much time living a lifestyle so like that which the bible condones, that they just know how act right. And, it seems to me, to really know how to act right is something that comes to you in the situation itself, but not at other times; its almost like a conditioned emotional response.

I don't really see it that way.. Of course I can't paint the morality of the Amish or the individual morality of the Amish with a wide brush I still hold them to a very high esteem. I just tried doing a google search on an "Amish murder rate" the other day but only came up with pages of murders done to them... But I will agree with you in another sense. If being good is an act, it is a lie.. To truely own it, it needs to be in your heart. And sometimes the only way to own it is to learn it..

I must admit that I have never read the bible completely. I have read but pieces here and there and I have just begun to start reading it from the beginning. But I still feel like I have a valid say in a place like this simply because of the wide variety of experience I've had directly with God's creation.

Yes, I totally agree with you that you can learn about God though creation. In fact, today was such a beautiful day that I spent most of it staring at the grass and trees outside my office.. I simply LOVE staring at God's green earth, (at least what it left of it). But like a navigator I need my map to chart my courses.. This to me is what the Bible gives..

I think that our police force should be more localized and that our domestic laws should also be more localized. I think that people should take the law into their own hands more often, through a working community that strives to understand all its inhabitants. This is not what I see today.

Excellent point Roy... And I agree with you...

I believe that we should have acted sooner that we did in WWII, either to stop Hitler's forces from gaining momentum before the war actually started, or simply by deploying troops sooner. We were selfish and unaware of others' needs back then.

I think that most people forget that it is was the Russians who really took the brunt of that war.. Also some Chinese historians claimed the total military and non-military deaths of the Chinese were at most 35 million.. But since we are Americans, we don't always see the other side of the picture..

But I think that we (as a country) are even more so today, with the addition of being intrusive and pedantic.

Roy, as a Christian, I can tell you that I never voted for the war that we are in now, anyone (with two cents) could see where that ball was bouncing..

But if you truly loved everyone as Christ said we should, then you would not think it was fun to ride your bike through someone's flower bed. You might have those subtle desires, but they would be overridden by the understanding (through love) that that person would be very upset.

I can't argue with you here Roy.. Yes true love needs to come from within. But then again that is what the message of Christ is to me.. Love. And love till it kills you...

I am not for abortion in cases where teens accidentally get pregnant from having consensual sex. They should have known what the effects were going to be. I am not for it simply if the mother changes her mind.

I'm sorry, but I do not feel remorse for the children that do not exist. I would advocate abortion in extreme cases as long as it is done within the first week or two. I am strongly opposed to forcing someone to sacrifice their life for another who was forced upon them in the first place. To me, it is as if all christians are on the side of the rapist in cases like this.

And even though you believe that all children are born tabula rasa, that is not so true as you may think. Regardless, we are all born with sin, are we not? Even though that's not the point, I would be less inclined to bring into the world the child of a rapist simply because I would rather his genes not make it to the next generation.

Oh man this is a tough one.. I see your point in instances of rape, but if the mother really didn't want or afford to keep the child couldn't she put them up for adoption?

Also I would have to disagree with you about the genes thing.. I've seen studies of kids whose fathers were rapists and they still came out to be good kids..

But we can't assume the best either. Children die everyday. If christians ran the world and forced every child to live, ignoring the repercussions of cause and effect, then we would be overwhelmed by people who just don't care about life. If people and children didn't die because of their actions, or the actions of their parents, then life would be pretty dull. No one would care. No one would take risks.

I understand, but doesn't ignoring the repercussions of cause and effect also apply to abortion too? Isn't this an action in itself?

Look at the US. We don't have to care about life and death situations anymore so we have become distant and unaware of how great life actually is. We take it for granted because we are safe. Most people don't do anything monumental or important nowadays.

Roy, I don't blame this on Christianity.. I've always liked Mother Teresa take on this.. She stated once that one of the poorest nations she ever visited was America.. She said it was materially wealthy but spiritually poor.. (I guess we can blame that one on the republicans... )

If we let everyone live, then the really unique and the really inventive would be crowded and overlooked because of the hordes of 'average' people. I call them average not because of any inherent ineptness, but because they just don't care as much as you or I do.

Yes but how do we define who is really unique and really inventive? Sometimes I look around my house that I bought, my car, and my steady job and wonder if there is some guy living in a grass hut somewhere in Africa that is living a more fulfilled and meaningful life than mine.. Here in the U.S. we are swarmed with materialism.. And some of this materialism is killing us and killing the planet.. And some of this materialism was made up by some brilliant minds..

By communicating with the earth you are really acknowledging God.. And when you acknowledge God you are quoting scripture.. Actually now after reading this I think I'm going to start quoting scripture more..

But I know it without the words. I don't need the words to know it. In fact, using the words only limits and puts a barrier on the actual force of it.

How does that song go again? Love speaks louder than words? Yes, I get want you are saying and a photograph can't capture the magnificence of the Grand Canyon.. Put without words, I think if may be a bit hard to communicate effectively.. By the way, speaking of words, these are the most words I've written in a long time..

It makes sense to me and I know how to relate it to my actual experiences, but it doesn't paint as pretty a picture as the actual thing. That is why I'd rather communicate with God by shouting from the highest mountain.

Communicate with God by shouting? You mean words? Hmmm... I see your point though...

I didn't mean to say that christianity actually teaches you that you are saved just by believing Christ is your savior. I just meant that a frighteningly large amount of Christians believe this. Then they believe in it superficially. I would not call them christian, even though they do.

Correct... Very correct Roy... In fact even Christ himself says that there will be some who will confess that they were Christians, but by their actions they really weren't. To them Christ says, "I don't even know who you are."

Yes, we all do evil things, but mostly because we are unaware of their sinful nature, or we are constrained by biological instinct (which I would compare to our sinful nature as humans). I believe that the ones who are truly sinful--meaning, the ones who will go to hell--are the people who just don't care and don't motivate themselves to figure it out.

But that's the thing... We don't always know who is right or wrong with God.. Including ourselves sometimes...

My evolutionist experience was a bit different from yours it seems... But I'm glad that your newfound faith swayed you into a motivation.. May I ask what your faith is?

I am not quite so sure. It is spiritual in nature, but I cannot pin it down to anything that exists. Basically it includes the main idea of almost all religions I've run into. That we must love each other as well as God. I see everything and everyone as equal, but equal in that they all must be treated as they want to be treated. Even things have motivations, you just have to find them.

How about dying for one another or dying to ones selfish motives as Christ did? This is what lures me into Christ's message..

Talking to you and others with a similar perspective, I feel as if I am venturing into another language, or point of view. It is like I am discovering a new path to the same center that I have glimpsed before. It fills me with a sense of unity.

Thanks Roy... I guess that makes two of us then...

[RoyLennigan]

Sorry to keep you hanging Roy... I didn't forget our conversation, I've been a bit bogged down with a few other things lately..

No prob, as you see I'm in the same boat.

Yes, perhaps we can learn from them. Maybe they spend so much time living a lifestyle so like that which the bible condones, that they just know how act right. And, it seems to me, to really know how to act right is something that comes to you in the situation itself, but not at other times; its almost like a conditioned emotional response.

I don't really see it that way.. Of course I can't paint the morality of the Amish or the individual morality of the Amish with a wide brush I still hold them to a very high esteem. I just tried doing a google search on an "Amish murder rate" the other day but only came up with pages of murders done to them... But I will agree with you in another sense. If being good is an act, it is a lie.. To truely own it, it needs to be in your heart. And sometimes the only way to own it is to learn it..

I don't know about you, but it seems to me that I know what action I should take (and I have more of a desire to take that action) when the situation is presented to me. What I mean to say is, that our basic human morality is more clear when we are in the hot seat, or when the situation revolves around an action that directly effects ourselves, rather than someone else.

I must admit that I have never read the bible completely. I have read but pieces here and there and I have just begun to start reading it from the beginning. But I still feel like I have a valid say in a place like this simply because of the wide variety of experience I've had directly with God's creation.

Yes, I totally agree with you that you can learn about God though creation. In fact, today was such a beautiful day that I spent most of it staring at the grass and trees outside my office.. I simply LOVE staring at God's green earth, (at least what it left of it). But like a navigator I need my map to chart my courses.. This to me is what the Bible gives..

But would you say that the very notions and morals embedded in the bible which were made for us to learn are also embedded in the relationships between all things? So to say, the lessons of the bible coincide with all things which are constructive in the universe?

I am not saying that we don't need the bible, but rather that it is like a shortcut or guide aiding us in decifering the true nature of happiness and progress and stability?

I believe that we should have acted sooner that we did in WWII, either to stop Hitler's forces from gaining momentum before the war actually started, or simply by deploying troops sooner. We were selfish and unaware of others' needs back then.

I think that most people forget that it is was the Russians who really took the brunt of that war.. Also some Chinese historians claimed the total military and non-military deaths of the Chinese were at most 35 million.. But since we are Americans, we don't always see the other side of the picture..

Yes, I agree. It seems that this nation is in a arrogant, rebellious adolescent stage, as most (if not all) powerful countries go through.

I am not for abortion in cases where teens accidentally get pregnant from having consensual sex. They should have known what the effects were going to be. I am not for it simply if the mother changes her mind.

I'm sorry, but I do not feel remorse for the children that do not exist. I would advocate abortion in extreme cases as long as it is done within the first week or two. I am strongly opposed to forcing someone to sacrifice their life for another who was forced upon them in the first place. To me, it is as if all christians are on the side of the rapist in cases like this.

And even though you believe that all children are born tabula rasa, that is not so true as you may think. Regardless, we are all born with sin, are we not? Even though that's not the point, I would be less inclined to bring into the world the child of a rapist simply because I would rather his genes not make it to the next generation.

Oh man this is a tough one.. I see your point in instances of rape, but if the mother really didn't want or afford to keep the child couldn't she put them up for adoption?

I am leaning more and more toward 'yes'. Unless it is a case of rape or probable death, then an abortion isn't warranted. But today's society is becoming more cruel and self-dependant that an unprepared for pregnancy can mean the ruin of one's life, whether they were ignorant of the consequences or not. In this day and age, there is so little of a helpful community that having an unexpected child means that the mother must pay for its care, while probably having to work two or more jobs to raise enough money (because most of the time, her parents make only enough to keep themselves alive) and the father has skipped out because he can barely take care of himself, let alone two other people. If perhaps there were a better community for people to live in, I'd be more supportive of pro-life, but at the moment, it appears to ruin more lives than it saves.

Also I would have to disagree with you about the genes thing.. I've seen studies of kids whose fathers were rapists and they still came out to be good kids..

Yes, I agree, in a sense. Its either the genes or the upbringing/environment of childhood. Actually, its most likely a combination of both.

But we can't assume the best either. Children die everyday. If christians ran the world and forced every child to live, ignoring the repercussions of cause and effect, then we would be overwhelmed by people who just don't care about life. If people and children didn't die because of their actions, or the actions of their parents, then life would be pretty dull. No one would care. No one would take risks.

I understand, but doesn't ignoring the repercussions of cause and effect also apply to abortion too? Isn't this an action in itself?

Yes, I suppose it is. We seem to be at a stage where most of us attack the symptoms and not the cause. We should rather look to the roots of why people think we need abortion. Just as we should look at and change the parts of society that breed rapists instead of just sending them to jail when it happens. Abortion is just another band-aid for the victims of a degenerating society. But band-aids don't fix anything, they just cover it up.

Look at the US. We don't have to care about life and death situations anymore so we have become distant and unaware of how great life actually is. We take it for granted because we are safe. Most people don't do anything monumental or important nowadays.

Roy, I don't blame this on Christianity.. I've always liked Mother Teresa take on this.. She stated once that one of the poorest nations she ever visited was America.. She said it was materially wealthy but spiritually poor.. (I guess we can blame that one on the republicans... )

I don't either, there's plenty of materialists out there who screw it up just as much, if not more. Materialism is the spectral opposite of spiritualism. I think both are absurd and that reality and reason lie in between. Not that aspects of either aren't true, but just that the strict followers of those ideals take them too far.

If we let everyone live, then the really unique and the really inventive would be crowded and overlooked because of the hordes of 'average' people. I call them average not because of any inherent ineptness, but because they just don't care as much as you or I do.

Yes but how do we define who is really unique and really inventive? Sometimes I look around my house that I bought, my car, and my steady job and wonder if there is some guy living in a grass hut somewhere in Africa that is living a more fulfilled and meaningful life than mine.. Here in the U.S. we are swarmed with materialism.. And some of this materialism is killing us and killing the planet.. And some of this materialism was made up by some brilliant minds..

I am not really sure. But I have lived both sides of what you are talking about. I lived most of my life with everything I thought I'd need. I lived with my parents who bought me a computer, a car, musical instruments, food, clothes, as well as other things that were much less needed. But then I left to go find myself. In finding myself, I lost almost everything they had given me. I found that I didn't need all the fancy clothes in fashion, or the nice car, or all junk food, or even the computer. I lived in the woods with a couple pairs of clothes, a single beat up guitar and a bag of random things that I gave to people I happened to meet. I was happier in that time with so little than I ever was before. I think it was because I really felt like I was earning what I got and that whatever I didn't need I gave to someone else. I felt like I was part of something that was going somewhere, even if no one knew where that was.

By communicating with the earth you are really acknowledging God.. And when you acknowledge God you are quoting scripture.. Actually now after reading this I think I'm going to start quoting scripture more..

But I know it without the words. I don't need the words to know it. In fact, using the words only limits and puts a barrier on the actual force of it.

How does that song go again? Love speaks louder than words? Yes, I get want you are saying and a photograph can't capture the magnificence of the Grand Canyon.. Put without words, I think if may be a bit hard to communicate effectively.. By the way, speaking of words, these are the most words I've written in a long time..

Aye, it is only so because we are so rarely put into situations wherein we can communicate simply by our actions. If we were, we would all be a lot more aware and we wouldn't lie nearly as often (if at all).

The use of so many words is simply a clarification of the workings of someone else's mind. It doesn't necessarily relate to the real world. The only way you can determine the validity of that person's words is by judging their own awareness of what is going on around them; by viewing their actions and reactions. I don't know how you can do that to the author of a book who has no physical presence with which to gauge. I guess this is the main reason why I have been put off for so long by the bible. Because I cannot see the author and how the author relates to this world. Even if that author might be a spiritual being that exists everywhere.

Yes, we all do evil things, but mostly because we are unaware of their sinful nature, or we are constrained by biological instinct (which I would compare to our sinful nature as humans). I believe that the ones who are truly sinful--meaning, the ones who will go to hell--are the people who just don't care and don't motivate themselves to figure it out.

But that's the thing... We don't always know who is right or wrong with God.. Including ourselves sometimes...

We will be forgiven for our ignorance. But those who were willfully ignorant in order to continue their own selfish desires are the ones who are not forgiven. If a boy does not believe in god because his father has imprinted this reaction with his own fists, then the boy will be forgiven, but the father will not.

My evolutionist experience was a bit different from yours it seems... But I'm glad that your newfound faith swayed you into a motivation.. May I ask what your faith is?

I am not quite so sure. It is spiritual in nature, but I cannot pin it down to anything that exists. Basically it includes the main idea of almost all religions I've run into. That we must love each other as well as God. I see everything and everyone as equal, but equal in that they all must be treated as they want to be treated. Even things have motivations, you just have to find them.

How about dying for one another or dying to ones selfish motives as Christ did? This is what lures me into Christ's message..

yes, the ultimate selfless act which seems to me to be the ultimate way of conveying the message, 'hey I am real and what I say is real and I will die saying so.' There really isn't any more powerful of a way to say that.

[Gman]

Roy I quite tired tonight so I'm going to select just a few things here from our conversation if you don't mind...

But would you say that the very notions and morals embedded in the bible which were made for us to learn are also embedded in the relationships between all things? So to say, the lessons of the bible coincide with all things which are constructive in the universe?

In a way yes... Sure.

I am not saying that we don't need the bible, but rather that it is like a shortcut or guide aiding us in decifering the true nature of happiness and progress and stability?

Yes.. I like the way you phrased this..

Yes, I agree. It seems that this nation is in a arrogant, rebellious adolescent stage, as most (if not all) powerful countries go through.

I won't debate you here Roy... But maybe we can change that someday..

I am leaning more and more toward 'yes'. Unless it is a case of rape or probable death, then an abortion isn't warranted. But today's society is becoming more cruel and self-dependant that an unprepared for pregnancy can mean the ruin of one's life, whether they were ignorant of the consequences or not. In this day and age, there is so little of a helpful community that having an unexpected child means that the mother must pay for its care, while probably having to work two or more jobs to raise enough money (because most of the time, her parents make only enough to keep themselves alive) and the father has skipped out because he can barely take care of himself, let alone two other people. If perhaps there were a better community for people to live in, I'd be more supportive of pro-life, but at the moment, it appears to ruin more lives than it saves.

Yes I know Roy, but do we put money before we put life? (I know you don't mean this, btw) I guess I'm not understanding here.. And how do we define what makes a community good?

Yes, I suppose it is. We seem to be at a stage where most of us attack the symptoms and not the cause. We should rather look to the roots of why people think we need abortion. Just as we should look at and change the parts of society that breed rapists instead of just sending them to jail when it happens. Abortion is just another band-aid for the victims of a degenerating society. But band-aids don't fix anything, they just cover it up.

Good point... I agree with you that we attack the symptoms and not the cause in many cases..

I am not really sure. But I have lived both sides of what you are talking about. I lived most of my life with everything I thought I'd need. I lived with my parents who bought me a computer, a car, musical instruments, food, clothes, as well as other things that were much less needed. But then I left to go find myself. In finding myself, I lost almost everything they had given me. I found that I didn't need all the fancy clothes in fashion, or the nice car, or all junk food, or even the computer. I lived in the woods with a couple pairs of clothes, a single beat up guitar and a bag of random things that I gave to people I happened to meet. I was happier in that time with so little than I ever was before. I think it was because I really felt like I was earning what I got and that whatever I didn't need I gave to someone else. I felt like I was part of something that was going somewhere, even if no one knew where that was.

I really enjoyed what you wrote here... Ok, can we meet somewhere in the middle here? Can we say that a more brilliant mind has the potential to do more good or harm then?

The use of so many words is simply a clarification of the workings of someone else's mind. It doesn't necessarily relate to the real world. The only way you can determine the validity of that person's words is by judging their own awareness of what is going on around them; by viewing their actions and reactions. I don't know how you can do that to the author of a book who has no physical presence with which to gauge. I guess this is the main reason why I have been put off for so long by the bible. Because I cannot see the author and how the author relates to this world. Even if that author might be a spiritual being that exists everywhere.

Roy, I would really welcome you to read the Psalms or Proverbs sometime in the Bible. As for physical presence some of the most interesting conversations I've had involved homeless people.. In fact it is recorded that some of the prophets of the old testament were actually nudists.. I think it was Isaiah or Jeremiah..