Evidence for God from Science

puritan lad wrote:Psalm 33:10-12
"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people He has chosen as His own inheritance."

PL

I agree with this as well. If He establishes our steps even though we have a plan it does not mean it will come to pass. The plan will only come to pass if it within His will. But the plans of the heart still belong to man. Now the Steps God leads us in may cause our hearts to change. And these Steps will influence the others around us. But it is still our plan and our heart even if the plan does not come to fruition. God is still in control regardless of the plan in our heart because he controls our steps.

Also, I disagree with your most basic assumption concerning Israel, but that is for another thread.

I do not see how, as it identifys Israel in the verses before them. The whole phrase "my people" has always been the nation of Israel ,especially in the Old Testament. And nevertheless, it is still referring to a promise that has not yet happened when it was written. It says "I WILL" give you a new heart. He has not done this yet, at least not at the time of the writing.

Read Hebrews Chapter 8 (particularly verses 8-13). The New Covenant is with God's People, the Church, the true Israel of God. (In fact, the Church always has been Israel, even in the OT). That however, has been nearly exhausted in the End Times Forum.

PL wrote:

Read Hebrews Chapter 8 (particularly verses 8-13). The New Covenant is with God's People, the Church, the true Israel of God. (In fact, the Church always has been Israel, even in the OT). That however, has been nearly exhausted in the End Times Forum.

Whether you are correct or not here is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

The issue is whether the heart is a new one given to us by God or an old one which by the way was also given to us by God. Either way,
the plans of the heart still belong to man. God gave it to us; it is now ours to make plans of our heart. But God guides our steps.

Your response above does not even take into account those that are lost. The plans of the heart still belong to man whether they are lost or saved. But God still guides each mans steps in that plan.
He may guide us so that the plan may fail. Especially if God sees that the failure of this plan will lead us closer to him. Or He may allow the plan to succeed if he thinks it will bring us closer to God. It may be that the plan will not affect the planners relationship with God in any way. In which case he will gude our steps to affect the lives of others. These are only a few very limited scenarios. The combinations are limitless beyond our comprehension. But God knows our hearts, whether we are saved and he gave us a new one or if we are not saved and we still have an old heart.

For both the saved and the lost - the plans of the heart belong to man. But God guides our steps.

It is actually hard for me to believe that you do not agree with this line of reasoning. At least this part of it.

YLTYLT wrote:For both the saved and the lost - the plans of the heart belong to man. But God guides our steps.

It is actually hard for me to believe that you do not agree with this line of reasoning. At least this part of it.

I believe that the "plans" of the heart are fully man's. But the nature of the heart is in God's hands alone. The heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9). Man's heart, if left to his own wicked estate, will never seek God. (Romans 3:10-12). He cannot recieve the things of the Spirit of God for the are foolishness to him. The plan's of a man's heart are wicked, therefore the sinful acts of man, while decreed by God, do not belong to God, but belong to man alone. Man's sins are his own.

In short, the "plans" of man's heart are totally unprofitable in any eternal sense. His heart must be changed first, and that change is the work of God and God alone.

If a person gets to heaven, he will have no one to glory in but God. If he goes to Hell, he will have no one to blame but himself.

PL

If he goes to Hell, he will have no one to blame but himself.

Well he could blame Adam or even God for not giving him the same opportunity to be regenerated and repent as the sinful elect.

FFC wrote:

If he goes to Hell, he will have no one to blame but himself.

Well he could blame Adam or even God for not giving him the same opportunity to be regenerated and repent as the sinful elect.

Not so. This particular statement shows the effects of modern Arminian theology on the Christian Church. The fall of man is no longer correctly taught or understood. It is assumed that a "fair and just" God owes salvation to everyone (In fact, this was a mainstay in B.W.'s argument). However, we must start with the Biblical fact that ALL men deserve Hell. We are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3), and is "condemned already" (John 3:18). There is no one who can stand before God on the threshold of Hell and say "I don't deserve this". God could, right now, destroy the entire human race and send us all to Hell, and be totally justified in doing so. If God were fair and just, and only fair and just, no one could be saved. Believe me, the last thing that anyone will want is for God to give us what we deserve.

Mercy, by definition, means that we do not get what we deserve. Sovereign Grace means that God "will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15). God owes salvation to no one, and if He so chooses to have mercy on some, He has every right to do that. As for the rest, it is their own wickedness that they will be judged for, and will have no claims against God whatsoever.

PL

puritan lad wrote:

FFC wrote:

If he goes to Hell, he will have no one to blame but himself.

Well he could blame Adam or even God for not giving him the same opportunity to be regenerated and repent as the sinful elect.

Not so. This particular statement shows the effects of modern Arminian theology on the Christian Church. The fall of man is no longer correctly taught or understood. It is assumed that a "fair and just" God owes salvation to everyone (In fact, this was a mainstay in B.W.'s argument). However, we must start with the Biblical fact that ALL men deserve Hell. We are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3), and is "condemned already" (John 3:18). There is no one who can stand before God on the threshold of Hell and say "I don't deserve this". God could, right now, destroy the entire human race and send us all to Hell, and be totally justified in doing so. If God were fair and just, and only fair and just, no one could be saved. Believe me, the last thing that anyone will want is for God to give us what we deserve.

Mercy, by definition, means that we do not get what we deserve. Sovereign Grace means that God "will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15). God owes salvation to no one, and if He so chooses to have mercy on some, He has every right to do that. As for the rest, it is their own wickedness that they will be judged for, and will have no claims against God whatsoever.

PL

PL, I would never say that God owes anybody anything. You are correct, we all deserve hell and if we were to ask for fairness and justice everybody would be in big trouble.

I guess the problem I have trouble getting around in Calvinism is that God does not love the whole world even though He is love. Otherwise He could in His soveriegnty offer the gift of Salvation to all and not just the elect.

If God can show me how it is loving to create people in His image knowing that for His own pleasure He is only going to save some and consign the rest to hell for all eternity then maybe I could accept it.

Maybe the book you suggested will help.

The books should help. However, I must point out that the Arminian views of God is subject to similar criticism. The Calvinist God predestines some to Hell (Proverbs 16:4), and is thus criticized for such. However, the Arminian God "foreknows" who will reject Him and end up in Hell, yet in spite of this knowledge, He still creates them. How is this any less repugnant to man's heart?

In the end, God is God, and does whatever pleases Him (Psalm 115:3).

PL

Here is a brief summary of the Scriptures used in Book II, Chapter 3 from Owen's Death of Death”, concerning what Christ's purpose was at Calvary.

...To “Seek and Save that which was lost” (Matthew 18:11)
...To “Save His People from their sins (Matthew 1:21)
...To “Save Sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15)
...To “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." (Hebrews 2:14-15)
...To “sanctify and cleanse His Church” (Ephesians 5:25-27)
...To “redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:4)
...To “sanctify Himself, that they (those who the Father had given Him) also might be sanctified through the truth." (John 17:17-19)
...To “[give] himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, (Galatians 1:4).
...“to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:5).
...“that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.(2 Cor. 5:21)
...“By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us....” (Hebrews 9:12)
...To “purge your consciences from dead works to serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:14)
...To “bear our sins:" (1 Pet. 2:24)
...To “Make and end of sins, reconciliation for iniquity, and bring in everlasting righteousness” (Daniel 9:24)
...To "bear our iniquities, and to have them laid upon him" (Isa. 53:5-12)
...To “purchase the church with His own blood” (Acts 20:28)
...To “lay down His life for His Sheep…to give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10: 11, 27-28)
...To “abolish death, and to bring life and immortality to light," (2 Timothy 1:10)
..."The blood of the new testament is shed for many, for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28)
..."By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities," (Isaiah 53:11).

Can anyone rightly say that the above have been accomplished for every single person on planet earth?

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:The books should help. However, I must point out that the Arminian views of God is subject to similar criticism. The Calvinist God predestines some to Hell (Proverbs 16:4), and is thus criticized for such. However, the Arminian God "foreknows" who will reject Him and end up in Hell, yet in spite of this knowledge, He still creates them. How is this any less repugnant to man's heart?

In the end, God is God, and does whatever pleases Him (Psalm 115:3).

PL

This is true.

Omnipotence inherently carries with it direct and complete responsibility for all actions and events whether by commission or passive permission.

It still doesn't preclude differentiating between the two, however.

Bart

puritan lad wrote:Here is a brief summary of the Scriptures used in Book II, Chapter 3 from Owen's Death of Death”, concerning what Christ's purpose was at Calvary.

...To “Seek and Save that which was lost” (Matthew 18:11)
...To “Save His People from their sins (Matthew 1:21)
...To “Save Sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15)
...To “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." (Hebrews 2:14-15)
...To “sanctify and cleanse His Church” (Ephesians 5:25-27)
...To “redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:4)
...To “sanctify Himself, that they (those who the Father had given Him) also might be sanctified through the truth." (John 17:17-19)
...To “[give] himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, (Galatians 1:4).
...“to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:5).
...“that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.(2 Cor. 5:21)
...“By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us....” (Hebrews 9:12)
...To “purge your consciences from dead works to serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:14)
...To “bear our sins:" (1 Pet. 2:24)
...To “Make and end of sins, reconciliation for iniquity, and bring in everlasting righteousness” (Daniel 9:24)
...To "bear our iniquities, and to have them laid upon him" (Isa. 53:5-12)
...To “purchase the church with His own blood” (Acts 20:28)
...To “lay down His life for His Sheep…to give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10: 11, 27-28)
...To “abolish death, and to bring life and immortality to light," (2 Timothy 1:10)
..."The blood of the new testament is shed for many, for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28)
..."By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities," (Isaiah 53:11).

Can anyone rightly say that the above have been accomplished for every single person on planet earth?

God Bless,

PL

I think it has. Legally it has all been accomplished. By believing we enter into that contract.

I know you would say that free will takes away from God's sovereignty, but forcing a person to have faith who never would or could have done so willingly is also a problem. Can we really call that faith coerced as it is?

It makes more sense in the whole scheme of things, that God presented the way of salvation with the knowledge that in our free will we could choose to reject his offer or receive it. The same scenario as in the garden of Eden. God knew the choices they would make and He let them make it without coercing them either way. Free will.

This doesn't take away from God's sovereignty, instead it adds immensely to God's love and mercy and all His Holy attributes.

This is the way I see it right now.

This points to he second objection to Arminianism, closely related. It gives man's "free-will" Divine attributes. It makes man his own savior, able to complete the work the Christ was apparently unable to effect. It makes Christ dependant on man, and His work ineffective in salvation. In the end, this so-called "legal contract" must be regarded as a "general ransom" for every person on the planet, while the purchasing power of the blood is lost, effecting the actual salvation of nobody. It makes Christ's work rely on some inherent faith in the person, a faith which Paul writes "is not of yourselves".

However, you'll see more as you read Owen's book. As I stated before, he completely exhausts all possible arguments.

God Bless,

PL

This points to he second objection to Arminianism, closely related. It gives man's "free-will" Divine attributes. It makes man his own savior, able to complete the work the Christ was apparently unable to effect.

Once again, Christ's work was not ineffectual. He accomplished what He was supposed to accomplish on the cross; propitiation, justification, redemption, sanctification etc. Not everybody will have the blood applied to them because not everybody will believe. This in no way makes Christ's work a failure. I'm not sure what you mean by "It gives man's "free-will" Divine attributes". Free will is the ability to make a choice. Only God is Divine, but in his grace He lets us "share" in that.

It makes Christ dependant on man, and His work ineffective in salvation. In the end, this so-called "legal contract" must be regarded as a "general ransom" for every person on the planet, while the purchasing power of the blood is lost, effecting the actual salvation of nobody. It makes Christ's work rely on some inherent faith in the person, a faith which Paul writes "is not of yourselves".

Christ's work on the cross is not dependent on the faith of a believer. It is there intact and powerful to all who will receive it.

"For by grace are you saved through faith, not that of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man boast"

Believing by faith does not buy or accomplish anything. The gift has already been bought and offered to the whole world. The act of believing, in my mind, is not a work, it is the spiritual act of receiving what I could never accomplish myself. I could believe until I was blue in the face unless the gift was offered to me freely.

Having said that, regardless of whether it's all God and none of us...or all God being offered to us, I highly respect your attitude of putting the sovereign God first and foremost above everything and everybody. When it all comes down no matter who is right or wrong...God is always right!

puritan lad wrote:

FFC wrote:

If he goes to Hell, he will have no one to blame but himself.

Well he could blame Adam or even God for not giving him the same opportunity to be regenerated and repent as the sinful elect.

Not so. This particular statement shows the effects of modern Arminian theology on the Christian Church. The fall of man is no longer correctly taught or understood. It is assumed that a "fair and just" God owes salvation to everyone (In fact, this was a mainstay in B.W.'s argument). However, we must start with the Biblical fact that ALL men deserve Hell. We are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3), and is "condemned already" (John 3:18). There is no one who can stand before God on the threshold of Hell and say "I don't deserve this". God could, right now, destroy the entire human race and send us all to Hell, and be totally justified in doing so. If God were fair and just, and only fair and just, no one could be saved. Believe me, the last thing that anyone will want is for God to give us what we deserve.

Mercy, by definition, means that we do not get what we deserve. Sovereign Grace means that God "will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15). God owes salvation to no one, and if He so chooses to have mercy on some, He has every right to do that. As for the rest, it is their own wickedness that they will be judged for, and will have no claims against God whatsoever.

PL

Hello PL, regarding your comment, “The fall of man is no longer correctly taught or understood. It is assumed that a "fair and just" God owes salvation to everyone (In fact, this was a mainstay in B.W.'s argument).”

Never did I say that God owes humanity anything. You are twisting things here.

For Clarification, God created for his own good pleasure. In this He proves to himself that HE IS ALL THAT HE IS. God does not need us and as you stated that God could send all creation into Hell is true. However if he did, then would God be true to his divine nature and character? You would answer yes, based on a linear mode of thinking that is overtly humanistic as that is how we would be and act as sovereign.

By transferring human concepts sovereignty into how God should operate, must act, to be sovereign people err in understanding how sovereign God really is. Thus, human self will exerts itself from your arguments. Those wise will see this evident in arguments posted here. The prevailing view is that God cannot behave in any manner than what Reformed interpretations are: all others are wrong.

God offers salvation to those who he foreknew would respond to his initiative to call. Since God calls, there now exist a choice when before there was none. Those that hear, he foresaw, because he knows everything — period! To limit God's foreknowledge to the Reformed definitions and counter points concerning what foreknowledge is and involves, is a gross injustice to God himself and an exaltation of human will — dominion over God's as well as over other people.

Fact is, God sovereignty can be explored more by looking at God's ability to Foreknow before all ever was. God is God. He knows and since he knows he can shape and mold things, events, place in era of time in which people should live, etc, all based on what he foreknows. God is this all powerful and is everywhere proving himself God for his own good pleasure. Why he does things the way he does is without debate: why? We exist and are here on this planet.

He did not destroy us. We are here. Now! So such reasoning as "that God could if he wanted too send all creation into hell" is really dumb as the fact is — he has not. You should look at the “why God does not do this” rather than, “God could do if he so wants.”

Fact is we are here. Why? So God can have pleasure wiping out selected elements humanity? Or demonstrate that he does have mercy on those he foreknows and those he foreknows that remain hard — he will harden and give then what they want? Look at the reason why and how God shows and hardens and not just "that He can."

That is love — Agape — Love. God does not coerce and force salvation upon humanity, nor make one love him. Agape love does not impose such coerced control. If so, agape love ceases to be love and God ceases to be God that loves. Instead, he becomes a Reformed god in control of the Geneva's of the world. A tree is known by its fruit.

Agape love will yield to another and let them go their own way with tears and sadness at foreseeing where they are heading. Agape love calls, pleads, proves it is real to those that walk away. Some will hear and others will not. Some respond - others will not. God does with us as he wills based on knowing all things before anything was ever was.

He calls to all because he is a God that loves, acts according to godlike justice, demonstrates how righteousness he really is, proves his wisdom is beyond compare, displays mercy, etc & etc, and is all powerful proving he does control all things because He foreknows all things. That is the Lord God of Glory!

If you understood more about foreknowing then you would understand that he granted humanity the ability to plan and thus establishes their steps — not coerce their steps as you argue. There is a difference between establishing and coercing: Establishing man's plans displays being all powerful. Coercion does not.

How does God direct-establish what a person plans? What ever you sow, that you shall reap. Proverbs 19:21, “There are many devices [plans, purposes, inventions] in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel [advice, purpose] of the LORD, that shall stand” KJV.

Thus, it is not what God sows, you reap, but what you sow you will reap. On judgment day, God's counsel will stand; thus, “be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap,” Galatians 6:7 is true as well as Revelations 20:11-13. No wonder the counsel of the Lord will stand and thus man's plans are truly established.

Therefore, God can place all where ever they can be best placed in any era as he foreknows who would fit in the scheme of time for purposes that we may never completely comprehend now. Yes, God truly establishes the plans, purposes, inventions, devises, thoughts, and intents of man.

Proverbs 16:2, “All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits — KJV,” Is most certainly true! This says what about God? Fair or not?

Mankind walked away from God and broke that relationship with God which existed before the fall. Jesus came and restored this relationship back with God so people can learn to live again in symphony with God's true life giving will. Those that hear his call will return and those that not, will not, all as God has already foreseen.

He does not need to send all creation to hell because he can. He does not have too. That is true power of a true God proving himself true to himself.

He lets the creature freely decide because he gave them a choice established by his call. Even when foreknowing the outcomes of this before anything came into being, God lets all live plan, scheme, invent, sin, choose, and from this establishes what for man?

I see God proving his love which shines his glory, mercy, wrath, justice, grace, righteousness, power, his sovereignty in it all. May God grant you all that read such sight!

Jeremiah 9:23-24, “Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.” KJV
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B. W. wrote:Hello PL, regarding your comment, “The fall of man is no longer correctly taught or understood. It is assumed that a "fair and just" God owes salvation to everyone (In fact, this was a mainstay in B.W.'s argument).”

Sorry for the confusion B.W. Maybe you can clarify what you meant by this statement defending man's free choice.

B. W. wrote:“God created in order to demonstrate that He is all these things; How can God verify He 'loves' if none exist to love? How can God be Righteous, Just, Merciful, if there were none to demonstrate this too? How can God prove He is equitable, fair, and exercises justice if none exist for this purpose.”

The conclusion I arrived at from reading this was that God would be unfair if He did not allow man to choose his own destiny. If not, please clarify.

Trust me, the last thing any person wants to do is to appeal to God's sense of justice and fairness. Thanks be for His mercy.

By transferring human concepts sovereignty into how God should operate, must act, to be sovereign people err in understanding how sovereign God really is. Thus, human self will exerts itself from your arguments. Those wise will see this evident in arguments posted here. The prevailing view is that God cannot behave in any manner than what Reformed interpretations are: all others are wrong.

The issue isn't "human concepts" of Sovereignty. It is "biblical concepts" of Sovereignty. The last thing anyone here can accuse me of is "exalting human self will". It is this very thing I'm been debasing.

What we know of God must come from the Scriptures in accordance with our limited understanding. God's Complete and Absolute Sovereignty is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Man ability to access salvation through "free-will" isn't found anywhere in the Scriptures. It is not God's sovereignty that is the human concept, but rather man's free-will. As John Owen correctly states, free will is "the issue of the people's brain". Man's will is not autonomous. It is a secondary entity, depending on all sort of external devices. Wills are affected by emotions, senses, hormones, likes and dislikes, drugs, etc. In fact, the definition of a rational human being is one whose will is controlled by reason and rational thinking. One whose will is not controlled by such would be insane. Man's will is dependant upon the heart, and cannot choose God unless God changes the heart.

God offers salvation to those who he foreknew would respond to his initiative to call.

Says who?

B.W. I have refuted your entire interpretation of "foreknowledge". Please show scriptures that support your view of a "foreknowledge of who would respond". And even in the unlikely event that you find such, please show how God offers salvation based on the "foreknowledge". I just can't seem to locate any of this in my Bible.

He did not destroy us. We are here. Now! So such reasoning as "that God could if he wanted too send all creation into hell" is really dumb as the fact is — he has not. You should look at the “why God does not do this” rather than, “God could do if he so wants.”

You missed the point. The issue here is your attempt to subject God to human standards of fairness. Again, the last thing any man would want is for God to be completely fair and just. If so, then Christ would have never given Himself for us. Why did Christ come to die for us? It certainly wasn't out of fairness. In fact, I can't think of anything more unfair.

That is love — Agape — Love. God does not coerce and force salvation upon humanity, nor make one love him. Agape love does not impose such coerced control. If so, agape love ceases to be love and God ceases to be God that loves. Instead, he becomes a Reformed god in control of the Geneva's of the world. A tree is known by its fruit.

No one said that God forces salvation. He saves, period. He changes our hearts and wills so that we will love Him.

Jeremiah 32:39-40
"I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me."

B.W., the gift of a new heart, and the fear of God which causes man not to turn from Him, all comes from God.

Agape love will yield to another and let them go their own way with tears and sadness at foreseeing where they are heading. Agape love calls, pleads, proves it is real to those that walk away. Some will hear and others will not. Some respond - others will not. God does with us as he wills based on knowing all things before anything was ever was.

Says who?

How does God direct-establish what a person plans? What ever you sow, that you shall reap. Proverbs 19:21, “There are many devices [plans, purposes, inventions] in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel [advice, purpose] of the LORD, that shall stand” KJV.

I've already addressed this many times B.W. Who gives man a new heart, God, or "free-will"?

Mankind walked away from God and broke that relationship with God which existed before the fall. Jesus came and restored this relationship back with God so people can learn to live again in symphony with God's true life giving will. Those that hear his call will return and those that not, will not, all as God has already foreseen.

The sheep hear, the goats do not (John 10:26-27). The ability to hear is itself a gift from God. Jesus spoke in parables so that the Pharisee would not hear (Matthew 13:13-15). You may continue to discount what the Scriptures say concerning the predestining of the Pharisee's disobedience (See Acts 2:23; Acts 3:18; Acts 4:28; 1 Peter 2:8) and blame on the almighty "free will", but the Bible gives only one explanation for the Pharisee's disobedience. "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight." (Matthew 11:26)

He does not need to send all creation to hell because he can. He does not have too. That is true power of a true God proving himself true to himself.

I never said that He did. I said that He does not have to save everybody (or for that matter anybody). He does save some, because it is good in His sight to do so.

He lets the creature freely decide because he gave them a choice established by his call.

Says Who?

B.W., I gave a complete list of quotes from you in an earlier post that clearly violate the clear teaching of Scripture. You may not want to deal with all of them, but some of them you still need to establish. You still have not estabished, from Scripture, the following:

1.) God lets the creature freely decide...
2.) God elects based on a foreknowledge of faith (which not only is unscriptural, but doesn't explain where faith comes from in the first place, since "not all have faith". (2 Thess. 3:2).

While you are at it, please explain where faith comes from? If it is our own creation with the assistance of the almighty "free-will", then why do we need to be born again? If we are born with it, how come not all have it? If it is a gift of God alone (as the Bible states), then how do we obtain it, without teaching "salvation by works"?

Please establish at least these two theories of yours from Scripture. Repeating them over and over again doesn't make them right.

Blessings,

PL