Evidence for God from Science

Now lets go through the carbon dating of the shroud to expose Ramsey for his deceptive remarks. I have highlighted the points that show just some of the 13 protocols that were violated , and yet the telegraph keeps perpatrating this lie to people. Well it is a secular magazine, its in the UK and they did the same thing when that atheist scientist funded by the italian atheist association said that they have succeeded in duplicating the shroud image, and later on it was shown that the image was a cheap carbon copy and yet another atheist attempt to duplicate the shroud was debunked. Why do i keep telling everyone that the shroud is the atheists worst nightmare? Professor Ramsey and the telegraph are prime examples of how quickly atheists abandon science, logic and reason when evidence that is in favor of God turns up.


http://shroud2000.com/CarbonDatingNews.html

""""" But the story has a plot that few know about and is starting to make the news. But lets go back to 1988 first. The three dating labs, according to a scientific protocol agreed upon in 1985, were supposed to cut several samples of the Shroud from different locations. Unfortunately, that is not what happened. Instead, the scientific adviser to the Arch Diocese of Turin, Luigi Gonnella, decided to violate the protocol and allowed only one sample to be cut from an outside corner where it had been handled hundreds of times over the centuries as it was held up for public viewing

One would think that a sample is a sample and why would it make any difference? That is like saying DNA is DNA, but not if you have the wrong DNA. How could it be a bad sample? The Shroud was in a fire in 1532 that nearly destroyed the cloth. Eight gaping holes were patched up and the entire cloth was attached to a backing cloth for support. This occurred in 1534 at a time when weaving had become an art and professional weavers were called upon to do “invisible mending” on fine tapestries restoring them to their original condition.

Now for what’s making the news. The violation of the sampling protocol in 1988 appears to have been a colossal mistake. Recent micro-chemical tests performed on thread samples from the area cut for carbon dating have been compared with threads taken from the main body of the Shroud and low and behold they are not the same! It appears that Gonella and the carbon labs were fooled by the handiwork of highly skilled French re-weavers according to museum textile experts.

Another violation of the protocol now seems more important too. The labs were supposed to do micro-chemical tests on the sample to make sure it was representative of the entire cloth. Guess what, they didn’t do that either. It seems like they just looked at it and said, “Yep, sure looks like the Shroud to me. Let’s cut it and get out of here.”

We had to wait 17 years for Ray Rogers, a retired Fellow with the Los Alamos Scientific laboratory and lead chemist for the original Shroud project in 1978, to do the micro-chemical tests the carbon labs were supposed to do in the first place. Published recently (January 20, 2005) in a peer reviewed scientific journal, ThermoChimica Acta, is an article containing the results of his analysis.

The key findings are as follows:

The radiocarbon sample that was used to date the Shroud has a very different composition and structure than the rest of the cloth and was not valid for dating the Shroud.

The sample used for carbon dating had been dyed with Madder root dye and applied to the surface in a plant-gum medium. This was to hide the repair (probably done in 1534). This dye and gum mixture does not exist anywhere else on the cloth.
The flax portion of the carbon sample had been bleached by a different method than the Shroud showing that the threads were manufactured at different times and not part of the original cloth.
The carbon dating sample also contained a significant amount of cotton. The cotton was woven in with the flax in the repaired area to help the dye adhere better. There is no cotton in the main body of the Shroud.

Linen (flax) contains a natural polymer called vanillin. Vanillin decays over time. Most medieval linen still contains a portion of the original vanillin whereas the vanillin content of the Dead Sea Scroll wrappings is completely depleted. The area cut for carbon dating still contains 37% of its original vanillin whereas 0% remains in samples taken from the main body of the Shroud.
All combined, it indicates that the carbon labs dated a rewoven area of the cloth. It also shows that the Shroud is significantly older than 700 years. Dr. Ray Rogers can only offer a date range of 1,300 to 3,000 years old because the rate of vanillin decay depends on storage temperature, something that is not known. But now, the Shroud being 2,000 years old doesn’t seem out of the question anymore.
Teddy Hall who was head of the Oxford carbon lab in 1988 said, “One would have to be a member of the Flat Earth Society” to believe the Shroud was authentic. I’ve just updated my membership""""

Part 3 , some more interesting tidbits of info most people dont know about Oxford and the shroud c-14 dating debacle.

http://weekofsalvation.webs.com/holyshroud.htm

On March 26th 1989 the London Telegraph reported:

"On Good Friday March 25th 1989 forty-five business men and rich friends presented to Professor Ed T. Hall of Oxford one million pounds for his services in having determined that the shroud of Turin was a medieval fake. Hall said he was using the funds to create a new chair of Archaeology science at Oxford to be filled with Dr Michael Tite"
Supervision of the 1988 carbon 14 testing of the shroud of Turin was given to research director of the British Museum Dr Michael Tite.
In January 1988 Dr Tite wrote a letter to Jaques Evin, director of the radio carbon laboratory of the university of Lyon. Tite requested that Evin should find him a cloth similar to the shroud of Turin in every detail. Evin searched and found a cloth very similar to the shroud, the cloth Evin produced was made at the end of the 13th century.

Dr Tite denied writing this letter until his letter was published, he later admitted to writing it.

One million british pounds for one of the worst botched up carbon dating in history that violated so many protocols that my dog could have done it better lol. I wonder if these professionals botched this up on purpose ? As arsenio hall used to say "things that make u go hmmmm"


Lo and behold here is that professor ramsey again who just stated in that article in the telegraph that he saw no reason to doubt the reliability of the c-14 tests and
he is quoted here:

Professor Ramsey and Carbon-14 Result

Since the 1988 radio carbon 14 dating new startling evidence has led Professor Christopher Ramsey of the University of Oxford and Head of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit which participated in the original 1988 carbon-14 dating of the Shroud to say, in May 2008:

“There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow, and so further research is certainly needed. Only by doing this will people be able to arrive at a coherent history of the shroud which takes into account and explains all of the available scientific and historical information.”


Ok Professor Ramsey, which one is it? Or are you just a bit confused after 25 years since the tests?


Its a good thing that sue benford and dan marino brought up their theory to ray rogers that this side piece of the shroud could have been from a professional reweave. Rogers laughed at the thought at first but after a PROPER chemical analysis which the so called professionals who recieved 1 million british pounds for their horrendus violations of many protocols, rogers found the side piece not be representative of the rest of the shroud.

Whats even crazier is that Cardinal ballestero(even with the shroud researchj that was done by the sturp team) could have believed that the shroud was a fake even before the c-14 tests were done. On top of that Ballestero and 2 others went into a private room where they wouldnt even allow cameras to video tape testing process. WHY?????????????????????
I bet if the church knew this they mitght have appointed someone else to do the tests.

Guys please read through the whole article in the link as it contains alot of good information on the history of the shroud and the shroud wounds also

Time for bed all, once my OCD grabs a hold of me time will pass for hours on a subject that im really into, and the shroud is an amazing subject:)

Silver, good find on that telegraph article my friend

bippy123 wrote:

CallMeDave wrote:It does seem that the Cloth was meant for such a technological time as this , perhaps because in this day and age the populace places such a large amount of trust in our many sciences. Once the cloth is scientifically authentized (entirely), the only excuse for not believing will be of an apriori-philosophical commitment to personally reject God at all costs due to sheer arrogance and pride .

Dave exactly my point, and also why Atheist hate the shroud so much and rarely discuss it without some conspiracy theories that have been debunked a million times before. Atheism isn't a logical but an emotional rejection of God.
The fact that the marks on our lords body on the shroud match up so perfectly is another point in favor of the new testament and Christianity, but for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would reject all of this evidence against what our Lord offers to us in favor of a worldview that offers no ultimate hope, no ultimate meaning and no ultimate purpose as well as no true love. It boggles my mind lol.

The Bible gives us a good clue as to why such people would : 'Because their minds were darkened and they commit evil deeds(immorality, hedonism, narcissism, etc..)' . In short, they dont want to be owned . If Christ were here today in the flesh, they still wouldnt believe just like in his day .

Good point Dave, I just hope that they like their steaks extra well done. No wonder why Satan loves atheists so much, he doesn't even have to lift a finger on them, as they are unwittingly doing his work for free lol.

Here is an excellent older article by the sudarium of Oviedo expert Mark Guscin. This written by Mark right before he finished his book on the sudarium. I can't recall the date but most shroud presenters still use much of his info ashe is one of the best historians on the sudarium.

http://www.shroud.com/bsts4305.htm

Next page....

To Start....

The Sudarium of Oviedo


This sudarium has been mentioned various times in Shroud society newsletters, but no clear explanation of what it is, and what it represents, has been given in the English language. It is difficult to summarise the detailed study that has been carried out on the sudarium in Spain, but I think that anyone interested in the Shroud should at least have this basic knowledge.

The sudarium is a piece of cloth which has been in Spain since the seventh century. It measures 84 x 53 cm. and contains only bloodstains mixed with serum. There is no image on the cloth. It is claimed that this is the cloth mentioned in John 20:6-7, the cloth that was lying apart from the main linen in the empty tomb.

The history of the cloth is to be found in the Book of Testaments of Oviedo, written by the bishop of Pelayo (Pelagius) in the twelfth century. According to this work, the sudarium was kept in Jerusalem until shortly before the year 614, when the Persian king Chosroes II conquered the city. It was taken first to Alexandria, and from there across the north of Africa, in constant retreat from the advancing Persians. It was brought into Spain via Cartagena and taken to Seville under the guardianship of San Ildefonso, who took it with him when he was appointed bishop of Toledo. When the Moors invaded and conquered Spain, the chest containing the sudarium and various other relics was taken northward, until it finally came to Oviedo, where a special room was built for it in the cathedral. The key date in the history of the sudarium is 14th March 1075, when the chest was opened in the presence of King Alfonso VI and Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, better known as El Cid. A li st was made of the relics contained therein, a copy of which is still in the cathedral at Oviedo. The sudarium has been kept in Oviedo ever since.

This historical route from Jerusalem through North Africa and into Spain has been confirmed by Max Frei, who found pollen from all these areas, and no others, when he examined the sudarium.

The bloodstains on the cloth show that it was used to cover the dead man's face, and folded over on itself, although not in the middle. The blood soaked all the way through, in a logical order of decreasing intensity. The astonishing thing about the stains is that they coincide exactly with the shape and form of the face of the man on the Shroud. The length of the nose is exactly 8cms. on both cloths, and the identical form of the chin and beard are is remarkable.

The cloth has been studied in great detail by a special investigation team from the Centro Espanol de Sindonologia, who have observed that this sudarium was in contact with the dead man's face for a limited period of time, because only fresh blood has stained it, not coagulated or clotted blood. This is evident from the fact that the stains are superimposed, and would also explain the absence of the inverted 3-shaped blood stain, as this blood would already have clotted. Dr. Alan Whanger has also suggested that the crown of thorns was still in place when the sudarium was applied to the face. Dr. Whanger applied the Polarized Image Overlay Technique to the sudarium and the Shroud, and concluded that both cloths must have covered the same face.

It is generally accepted that suffocation was the direct cause of death in crucifixion. When this happens, a kind of serum collects in the lungs of the crucified person. This is exactly what is present in the nasal area bloodstains on the sudarium, suggesting that the cause of death was the same as that of the man of the Shroud.

Most of the medical examination on the sudarium has been carried out by Dr. Villalain of the University of Valencia. His studies have shown that the cloth was held to the man's face in the nasal area - there are even traces of the fingerprints of the man who held it there - could these possibly be those of the disciple John? The blood and serum came out through the nose due to the jolting movements of taking the body down from the cross and carrying it to the tomb. Calculating the time lapse between the super imposed stains, Dr. Villalain has concluded that the body must have lain still between being taken down from the cross and carried to the tomb. This time lapse of about one hour could have been the waiting time to receive Pilate's permission to bury the body.

Covering the disfigured face of a dead man was perfectly in keeping with Jewish burial traditions. The cloth would have been discarded on entering the tomb, when the larger linen cloths were wrapped around the body. This is why the sudarium was lying apart.

The well-known sindonologist Dr. Baima Bollone has analysed blood samples from both the sudarium and the Shroud, and found that both belong to the same group, namely AB.

The only possible conclusion from all the investigation is that these two cloths were in contact with the same face. The history of the sudarium is documented from the first century, with no doubts or possible misinterpretations. This is conclusive evidence that the Shroud of Turin must also date from the first century.

Next page....

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To Start....

I just peeked in Amazon.com and Guscins book the history of the sudarium of Oviedo is available but it's 109 bucks!!!!
In the book he talks about 3rd and 4th century written accounts of a head cloth around Jesus's head ( as I got the info from the review left there from someone who read the book).

I believe I saw a copy of the book of testaments online but had a tough time viewing it on my iPod touch.
I believe the book of testaments talks about how the sudarium was in Jerusalem until 614ad when it was moved out of jerusalem before the Persian invasion force arrived. It was taken from Jerusalem to north Africa and to eventually Spain where it's been ever since. What's really amazing was the pollen samples taken by the Swiss criminologists max frei confirm this information perfect from the pollen itself.

Ok guys this is a small but very important clip from the dvd the fabric of time and it talks aboutthe impossibility of no distortion on the image, and how its impossible for that to happen if The body of Jesus was lying on the tomb below his body. His body had to have been floating above the rock below him in between the shroud. Plus the image itself shows that the muscles of the body image shows that they werent crushed against the tomb . How could this be unless Jesus was floating in between the top and bottom of the shroud. Fascinating video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg




The next video is of the sudarium of Oviedo and details Mark Guscins findings and focuses on the history of the sudarium


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6vmvBmtuZc

Hey guys, here is a great research article from retired Eastman Kodack engineer Kevin Moran.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/moran.pdf

Can anyone copy and paste this PDF and pm it to me or post it here so that I could highlight some of what he's saying .
Also this article gets extremely technical as Moran explains why he believes that there are new laws of physics that are on the shroud.
Thanks guys

One thing that kinda troubles me about the shroud being a forgery has to do with the fact that it was kept by the roman catholic church for so long.

Given the track record of the catholic church on doctrine issues (salvation through faith AND works), worship of Mary and the saints, plus with the way they treat their choir boys and just the fact they are a very controlling establishment, makes me wonder if they could create something like the shroud to impress and subdue the masses and thus control them more.

Something like this could have easily kept primitive atheist groups from starting and causing dissent with the catholic church. I hope that's not the case, but it's something that has been on my mind while reading about the shroud.

bippy123 wrote:Hey guys, here is a great research article from retired Eastman Kodack engineer Kevin Moran.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/moran.pdf

Can anyone copy and paste this PDF and pm it to me or post it here so that I could highlight some of what he's saying .
Also this article gets extremely technical as Moran explains why he believes that there are new laws of physics that are on the shroud.
Thanks guys

Optically Terminated Image Pixels
Observed on Frei 1978 Samples
Kevin E. Moran Belmont, NC 28012
© 1999 All Rights Reserved Reprinted by Permission
ABSTRACT
In 1992 while taking photomicrographs of the 1978 Max Frei samples at the Holy Shroud Guild at Esopus, NY, photos from the arm area showed individual image fibers had very sharp boundaries at their ends across the 15-micron diameter of the fibers. At 200x magnification it is seen that these picture elements, or pixels, are very uniformly darkened about 30% over the natural color of the non-imaged fiber. At the boundary between image pixel and clear fiber, there is a sharp change. There is no gradual edge as expected from a shadow mask or external light source. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discountinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed.
Image Research in this Century
After Secundo Pia photographed the Shroud of Turin in 1898, it became obvious to observers how unique the image on the cloth is, especially when it is compared to painted copies. Now 100 years later it is still not possible to duplicate the image by any means. Fortunately with the Max Frei samples and the work of STURP (Shroud of TUrin Research Project) in 1978, we now have more insight into the nature of the image. We cannot explain the physics that made the image, but we know it is not a photo, or a painting, or a thermally formed event.
There are six (6) known conditions about the image that have come under study in this century:
1. In 1902, Yves Delage, working from Secundo Pia’s photographs, pointed out that the forensic detail on the shroud was that agreeing with the crucified “historic Jesus Christ”. Pierre Barbet, and later, other forensic people, supported him.Optically Terminated Image Pixels
Observed on Frei 1978 Samples
Kevin E. Moran Belmont, NC 28012
© 1999 All Rights Reserved Reprinted by Permission
ABSTRACT
In 1992 while taking photomicrographs of the 1978 Max Frei samples at the Holy Shroud Guild at Esopus, NY, photos from the arm area showed individual image fibers had very sharp boundaries at their ends across the 15-micron diameter of the fibers. At 200x magnification it is seen that these picture elements, or pixels, are very uniformly darkened about 30% over the natural color of the non-imaged fiber. At the boundary between image pixel and clear fiber, there is a sharp change. There is no gradual edge as expected from a shadow mask or external light source. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discountinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed.
Image Research in this Century
After Secundo Pia photographed the Shroud of Turin in 1898, it became obvious to observers how unique the image on the cloth is, especially when it is compared to painted copies. Now 100 years later it is still not possible to duplicate the image by any means. Fortunately with the Max Frei samples and the work of STURP (Shroud of TUrin Research Project) in 1978, we now have more insight into the nature of the image. We cannot explain the physics that made the image, but we know it is not a photo, or a painting, or a thermally formed event.
There are six (6) known conditions about the image that have come under study in this century:
1. In 1902, Yves Delage, working from Secundo Pia’s photographs, pointed out that the forensic detail on the shroud was that agreeing with the crucified “historic Jesus Christ”. Pierre Barbet, and later, other forensic people, supported him.
2. After this, Paul Vignon went on to show how certain details on the Turin Shroud are included on icons and paintings over the last 1500 years, but no painter has been able to represent the body image as it appears on the Turin cloth. Modern photography has given us an overall picture of the body image, proving it to be a negative, but photography has not proven to be the method that formed the image as some have claimed.
3. In 1913, Gabriel Quidor built a mechanical scanning densitometer that showed the 3D properties of the image. After this, another Frenchman, Paul Gastineau, prepared a 3D full face image with the same vertical scanning technique. In 1976 Jackson and others confirmed this unique property using the all-electronic VP-8 analyzer. It operates with standard video camera input and provides a smoother horizontal scan. The VP-8 was designed by George Dalke and built by Interpretation Systems of Lawrence, Kansas for map interpretation in the late 60’s.
4. In 1978, STURP researchers showed that the image does not fluoresce, as would a scorch, and that the image picture elements are distributed as a random halftone to occupy individual 15-micron fibers. The imaged fibers are only on the top layers of the threads that make up the linen.
5. Later John Jackson, showed that the image appears to be perpendicular to gravity, showing only the front and back of the man in the shroud. He also concluded that the image appears only where the cloth was closer than 3.5 cm. to the body.
6. The image picture elements, or pixels, fill the whole cross section of the fiber. The pixels we have observed on the Frei samples are sharply terminated at their ends. The pixels are more brittle than the base fiber. Al Adler says the pixels are composed of dehydrated cellulose and the structure is now that of a conjugated carbonyl.
Discussion
Pia’s negative photograph, from 1898, showed what looked to be a body that was glowing, but slightly submerged in a bath of cloudy water. This condition is more properly described as an image that is visible, at a distance, but by locally attenuated radiation. The unique front-and-back– only image can be best described as gravitationally collimated. The radiation that made the image acted perfectly parallel to gravity. There is no side image. The radiation is parallel to gravity and, if moving at light speed, only lasted about 100 picoseconds. It is particulate in nature, colliding only with some of the fibers.
It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique.
Observations from the Frei Samples
Thanks to the efforts of Paul Maloney and Alan Whanger, I was able to photograph some of the 27 samples that Max Frei took from the shroud in 1978. The samples were gathered by pressing sticky tapes against the shroud and then pressing the individual tapes onto a glass microscope slide. The photos were taken looking through the yellowing, but still clear, tape backing that was already about 15 years old.
I used an Olympus Vanox research-grade microscope mounted with a Pentax 35 mm camera body. The film was developed at the Kodak main lab in Rochester, NY and digitized to Photo CD rom. Some of these original photos have been put on the internet at: http://shroud.org that is the site of the Holy Shroud Guild.
Figure 1. Olympus microscope (shown with video camera attached)Max Frei had marked the slides with a number and letter group such as 2bd, 4bd, and so on. In a broad look at the items present on the samples we saw flower parts, bugs, cotton fibers, modern synthetic fibers and old wool fibers. There was speculation that the old wool fibers seen in the arm area may be matched to the Tunic of Argentueil in the future.
Later on in September 1992, at Mount Saint Alphonsus in Esopus, NY, we held a meeting to plan a method of archiving the information that is on these Frei microscope slides. Alan Adler was present along with Fr. Adam Otterbein and Paul Maloney and others. After surveying some of the samples it was agreed that there is so much information on these slides that a proper project would require a much larger effort, than was possible at this time.
There are many very interesting objects on these sample/slides and a comprehensive inventory is still in progress.
Figure 2. K. Moran, P. Maloney and Prof. A. Adler at Esopus in 1992
There were many larger plant parts than we had expected. We were at first of the idea that Frei had only found pollens. Paul Maloney has pointed out that Frei pressed his fingernail into the back of the sticky tape so that it would sample deeper in the fabric than did the STURP team which used a more gentle tape application to get just the surface materials.
This sampling method would prove important to explain the condition of the image pixels, as we shall see later.
Figure 3. Cotton fibers and a red intrusion that may be modern
The question always arises about calibration of the photomicrographs. It is a custom to put a fiducial mark in the photo in some way to get a size reference. Since I was with Kodak at the time, it was easy to obtain some of their own product that is 10-micron polystyrene beads that we placed on a piece of sticky polyester tape. These are shown in the next figure. The optical magnification is 200x.
Figure 4. Kodak 10-micron polystyrene spheres
One of the observations that were made at this time is the amount of blood that was seen on slide 4bd. It is a clump that is about 0.3 millimeters across and very red. Al Adler has explained that this due to the chemistry of bilirubin, the substance that the human body makes when it is under severe stress as when Christ was tortured. This fits the on going forensic evidence.
Figure 5. A large clot of blood on slide 4bd
Many of the linen fibers have a visible hollow core as can be seen in figure 6.The fragments of blood are noticeably larger than the diameter of a single fiber. The non-imaged fibers are transparent, so the yellowed image areas are very readily discerned.
Figure 6. Non imaged linen fiber seen with blood shard
The length of these image areas or pixels can be longer than a millimeter or shorter than 200 microns, or 0.2 millimeters. But they are uniform over their length suggesting they have been abruptly chemically altered. Two of such sections are shown in figure 7.
Figure 7. Two sharply terminated image pixels
The individual image pixels have very sharp boundaries at their ends across the 15-micron diameter of the fibers. When seen at a magnification of 200 power, these pixels show uniformly darkened area over the natural color of the non-imaged fiber. At the boundary between the image pixel and the clear fiber, there is a sharp change. There is no gradual edge as expected from a shadow mask or external light source. The pixels are cracked because Frei used his fingernail to crease the sticky tape sharply on the cloth.
Theoretical model
It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discountinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed.
Discussion
The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly.
The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector.
The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.
Further Work
To verify this work and pixel theory, in future testing, a careful microscopic scan should be made in-situ to map the high gradient areas like the fingers or the nose.. A resulting histogram of the pixels may tell what type of particle collided with the fibers. It will prove the true nature of the image as well.
The atlas of image information that should be constructed from detailed micro scans, should classify items on the cloth by their image forming mechanism as well as their chemistry and history. For example the blood is certainly on the cloth by contact and absorption. But it appears there is no image under the blood. The burns have certainly pyrolized the linen and show gradient information between the carbon black and the natural clean linen. But where did the vapor by-products go? Did they interfere with the carbon dating?
The atlas should include at least 9 layers of mapping to show the overlay effects and help classify the types of images. See the attached list.
Nine (9) Categories To Microscopically Map on the Shroud
These areas require database entry based on position and so they should be handled by an appropriate X-Y servo carriage attached to the examination table.
1. Map the pixels that make up the image in small areas with steep gradients such as the nose and fingers. This will document the statistical distribution of the darker pixel segments in the linen fibers if the scans can be done in the 200x or more visual microscopic levels.
2. Locate and map blood areas in a separate database from burns, pollens and other materials, so that a good picture of the mortal death image of the crucified man can be imaged separately from the resurrection image.
3. Pollens and materials such as travertine aragonite should be located in separate databases to distinguish the geographic identity of the cloth and show its historic background and provenance.
4. Bugs and microbial items likewise should have their own section in the study to account for the general fiber conditions, and damage or preservation problems that have to be addressed for the future.
5. Fluid stains should be mapped to a separate database to show the fire damage and other contaminants as different from the blood and body fluids.
6. Hard items should be mapped closely to see how their image differs from the main body image. The coins on the eyes theory should be easy to study, because some mechanical residue of copper may be present.
7. Burns are especially important to map to their own database because it will show how the cloth was affected by the molten-silver pyrolysis of the cellulose in the fire of 1532. There is an important question to answer here, because of the effect it had on the carbon 14 dating assumptions.
8. Paint pigments should be logged into another database because of the question artistic works that have been touched to the cloth over the years to see if a contact pattern results. Iron particles and full paint chips should be noted to give further forensic and historic basis for the cloth’s whereabouts.
9. The basic cloth weave and it’s flaws should be mapped to try to further identify its origins. The patches must be properly labeled so the cloth-fold model for the fire data can be more closely shown. Also the places where samples have been taken must be kept in a separate file to append results.

cubeus19 wrote:One thing that kinda troubles me about the shroud being a forgery has to do with the fact that it was kept by the roman catholic church for so long.

Given the track record of the catholic church on doctrine issues (salvation through faith AND works), worship of Mary and the saints, plus with the way they treat their choir boys and just the fact they are a very controlling establishment, makes me wonder if they could create something like the shroud to impress and subdue the masses and thus control them more.

Something like this could have easily kept primitive atheist groups from starting and causing dissent with the catholic church. I hope that's not the case, but it's something that has been on my mind while reading about the shroud.

Cubeus, again thats a theology debate thats better served for another forum, and since im catholic and actually looked at all christian denominations and came back to the catholic and understand that catholics never ever worshipped mary that doesnt need a response.
What we have with the shroud here is scientific as well as historic evidence that matches up exactly with scripture and that makes it something for all christians to study, as Gary Habermas stated himself.

sandy_mcd wrote:

bippy123 wrote:Hey guys, here is a great research article from retired Eastman Kodack engineer Kevin Moran.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/moran.pdf

Can anyone copy and paste this PDF and pm it to me or post it here so that I could highlight some of what he's saying .
Also this article gets extremely technical as Moran explains why he believes that there are new laws of physics that are on the shroud.
Thanks guys

Optically Terminated Image Pixels
Observed on Frei 1978 Samples
Kevin E. Moran Belmont, NC 28012
© 1999 All Rights Reserved Reprinted by Permission
ABSTRACT
In 1992 while taking photomicrographs of the 1978 Max Frei samples at the Holy Shroud Guild at Esopus, NY, photos from the arm area showed individual image fibers had very sharp boundaries at their ends across the 15-micron diameter of the fibers. At 200x magnification it is seen that these picture elements, or pixels, are very uniformly darkened about 30% over the natural color of the non-imaged fiber. At the boundary between image pixel and clear fiber, there is a sharp change. There is no gradual edge as expected from a shadow mask or external light source. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discountinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed.
Image Research in this Century
After Secundo Pia photographed the Shroud of Turin in 1898, it became obvious to observers how unique the image on the cloth is, especially when it is compared to painted copies. Now 100 years later it is still not possible to duplicate the image by any means. Fortunately with the Max Frei samples and the work of STURP (Shroud of TUrin Research Project) in 1978, we now have more insight into the nature of the image. We cannot explain the physics that made the image, but we know it is not a photo, or a painting, or a thermally formed event.
There are six (6) known conditions about the image that have come under study in this century:
1. In 1902, Yves Delage, working from Secundo Pia’s photographs, pointed out that the forensic detail on the shroud was that agreeing with the crucified “historic Jesus Christ”. Pierre Barbet, and later, other forensic people, supported him.Optically Terminated Image Pixels
Observed on Frei 1978 Samples
Kevin E. Moran Belmont, NC 28012
© 1999 All Rights Reserved Reprinted by Permission
ABSTRACT
In 1992 while taking photomicrographs of the 1978 Max Frei samples at the Holy Shroud Guild at Esopus, NY, photos from the arm area showed individual image fibers had very sharp boundaries at their ends across the 15-micron diameter of the fibers. At 200x magnification it is seen that these picture elements, or pixels, are very uniformly darkened about 30% over the natural color of the non-imaged fiber. At the boundary between image pixel and clear fiber, there is a sharp change. There is no gradual edge as expected from a shadow mask or external light source. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discountinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed.
Image Research in this Century
After Secundo Pia photographed the Shroud of Turin in 1898, it became obvious to observers how unique the image on the cloth is, especially when it is compared to painted copies. Now 100 years later it is still not possible to duplicate the image by any means. Fortunately with the Max Frei samples and the work of STURP (Shroud of TUrin Research Project) in 1978, we now have more insight into the nature of the image. We cannot explain the physics that made the image, but we know it is not a photo, or a painting, or a thermally formed event.
There are six (6) known conditions about the image that have come under study in this century:
1. In 1902, Yves Delage, working from Secundo Pia’s photographs, pointed out that the forensic detail on the shroud was that agreeing with the crucified “historic Jesus Christ”. Pierre Barbet, and later, other forensic people, supported him.
2. After this, Paul Vignon went on to show how certain details on the Turin Shroud are included on icons and paintings over the last 1500 years, but no painter has been able to represent the body image as it appears on the Turin cloth. Modern photography has given us an overall picture of the body image, proving it to be a negative, but photography has not proven to be the method that formed the image as some have claimed.
3. In 1913, Gabriel Quidor built a mechanical scanning densitometer that showed the 3D properties of the image. After this, another Frenchman, Paul Gastineau, prepared a 3D full face image with the same vertical scanning technique. In 1976 Jackson and others confirmed this unique property using the all-electronic VP-8 analyzer. It operates with standard video camera input and provides a smoother horizontal scan. The VP-8 was designed by George Dalke and built by Interpretation Systems of Lawrence, Kansas for map interpretation in the late 60’s.
4. In 1978, STURP researchers showed that the image does not fluoresce, as would a scorch, and that the image picture elements are distributed as a random halftone to occupy individual 15-micron fibers. The imaged fibers are only on the top layers of the threads that make up the linen.
5. Later John Jackson, showed that the image appears to be perpendicular to gravity, showing only the front and back of the man in the shroud. He also concluded that the image appears only where the cloth was closer than 3.5 cm. to the body.
6. The image picture elements, or pixels, fill the whole cross section of the fiber. The pixels we have observed on the Frei samples are sharply terminated at their ends. The pixels are more brittle than the base fiber. Al Adler says the pixels are composed of dehydrated cellulose and the structure is now that of a conjugated carbonyl.
Discussion
Pia’s negative photograph, from 1898, showed what looked to be a body that was glowing, but slightly submerged in a bath of cloudy water. This condition is more properly described as an image that is visible, at a distance, but by locally attenuated radiation. The unique front-and-back– only image can be best described as gravitationally collimated. The radiation that made the image acted perfectly parallel to gravity. There is no side image. The radiation is parallel to gravity and, if moving at light speed, only lasted about 100 picoseconds. It is particulate in nature, colliding only with some of the fibers.
It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique.
Observations from the Frei Samples
Thanks to the efforts of Paul Maloney and Alan Whanger, I was able to photograph some of the 27 samples that Max Frei took from the shroud in 1978. The samples were gathered by pressing sticky tapes against the shroud and then pressing the individual tapes onto a glass microscope slide. The photos were taken looking through the yellowing, but still clear, tape backing that was already about 15 years old.
I used an Olympus Vanox research-grade microscope mounted with a Pentax 35 mm camera body. The film was developed at the Kodak main lab in Rochester, NY and digitized to Photo CD rom. Some of these original photos have been put on the internet at: http://shroud.org that is the site of the Holy Shroud Guild.
Figure 1. Olympus microscope (shown with video camera attached)Max Frei had marked the slides with a number and letter group such as 2bd, 4bd, and so on. In a broad look at the items present on the samples we saw flower parts, bugs, cotton fibers, modern synthetic fibers and old wool fibers. There was speculation that the old wool fibers seen in the arm area may be matched to the Tunic of Argentueil in the future.
Later on in September 1992, at Mount Saint Alphonsus in Esopus, NY, we held a meeting to plan a method of archiving the information that is on these Frei microscope slides. Alan Adler was present along with Fr. Adam Otterbein and Paul Maloney and others. After surveying some of the samples it was agreed that there is so much information on these slides that a proper project would require a much larger effort, than was possible at this time.
There are many very interesting objects on these sample/slides and a comprehensive inventory is still in progress.
Figure 2. K. Moran, P. Maloney and Prof. A. Adler at Esopus in 1992
There were many larger plant parts than we had expected. We were at first of the idea that Frei had only found pollens. Paul Maloney has pointed out that Frei pressed his fingernail into the back of the sticky tape so that it would sample deeper in the fabric than did the STURP team which used a more gentle tape application to get just the surface materials.
This sampling method would prove important to explain the condition of the image pixels, as we shall see later.
Figure 3. Cotton fibers and a red intrusion that may be modern
The question always arises about calibration of the photomicrographs. It is a custom to put a fiducial mark in the photo in some way to get a size reference. Since I was with Kodak at the time, it was easy to obtain some of their own product that is 10-micron polystyrene beads that we placed on a piece of sticky polyester tape. These are shown in the next figure. The optical magnification is 200x.
Figure 4. Kodak 10-micron polystyrene spheres
One of the observations that were made at this time is the amount of blood that was seen on slide 4bd. It is a clump that is about 0.3 millimeters across and very red. Al Adler has explained that this due to the chemistry of bilirubin, the substance that the human body makes when it is under severe stress as when Christ was tortured. This fits the on going forensic evidence.
Figure 5. A large clot of blood on slide 4bd
Many of the linen fibers have a visible hollow core as can be seen in figure 6.The fragments of blood are noticeably larger than the diameter of a single fiber. The non-imaged fibers are transparent, so the yellowed image areas are very readily discerned.
Figure 6. Non imaged linen fiber seen with blood shard
The length of these image areas or pixels can be longer than a millimeter or shorter than 200 microns, or 0.2 millimeters. But they are uniform over their length suggesting they have been abruptly chemically altered. Two of such sections are shown in figure 7.
Figure 7. Two sharply terminated image pixels
The individual image pixels have very sharp boundaries at their ends across the 15-micron diameter of the fibers. When seen at a magnification of 200 power, these pixels show uniformly darkened area over the natural color of the non-imaged fiber. At the boundary between the image pixel and the clear fiber, there is a sharp change. There is no gradual edge as expected from a shadow mask or external light source. The pixels are cracked because Frei used his fingernail to crease the sticky tape sharply on the cloth.
Theoretical model
It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discountinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed.
Discussion
The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly.
The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector.
The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.
Further Work
To verify this work and pixel theory, in future testing, a careful microscopic scan should be made in-situ to map the high gradient areas like the fingers or the nose.. A resulting histogram of the pixels may tell what type of particle collided with the fibers. It will prove the true nature of the image as well.
The atlas of image information that should be constructed from detailed micro scans, should classify items on the cloth by their image forming mechanism as well as their chemistry and history. For example the blood is certainly on the cloth by contact and absorption. But it appears there is no image under the blood. The burns have certainly pyrolized the linen and show gradient information between the carbon black and the natural clean linen. But where did the vapor by-products go? Did they interfere with the carbon dating?
The atlas should include at least 9 layers of mapping to show the overlay effects and help classify the types of images. See the attached list.
Nine (9) Categories To Microscopically Map on the Shroud
These areas require database entry based on position and so they should be handled by an appropriate X-Y servo carriage attached to the examination table.
1. Map the pixels that make up the image in small areas with steep gradients such as the nose and fingers. This will document the statistical distribution of the darker pixel segments in the linen fibers if the scans can be done in the 200x or more visual microscopic levels.
2. Locate and map blood areas in a separate database from burns, pollens and other materials, so that a good picture of the mortal death image of the crucified man can be imaged separately from the resurrection image.
3. Pollens and materials such as travertine aragonite should be located in separate databases to distinguish the geographic identity of the cloth and show its historic background and provenance.
4. Bugs and microbial items likewise should have their own section in the study to account for the general fiber conditions, and damage or preservation problems that have to be addressed for the future.
5. Fluid stains should be mapped to a separate database to show the fire damage and other contaminants as different from the blood and body fluids.
6. Hard items should be mapped closely to see how their image differs from the main body image. The coins on the eyes theory should be easy to study, because some mechanical residue of copper may be present.
7. Burns are especially important to map to their own database because it will show how the cloth was affected by the molten-silver pyrolysis of the cellulose in the fire of 1532. There is an important question to answer here, because of the effect it had on the carbon 14 dating assumptions.
8. Paint pigments should be logged into another database because of the question artistic works that have been touched to the cloth over the years to see if a contact pattern results. Iron particles and full paint chips should be noted to give further forensic and historic basis for the cloth’s whereabouts.
9. The basic cloth weave and it’s flaws should be mapped to try to further identify its origins. The patches must be properly labeled so the cloth-fold model for the fire data can be more closely shown. Also the places where samples have been taken must be kept in a separate file to append results.

God Blesss you SANDY, many many many thanks. Ill look it over tomorrow as I wont have access to my pc tonight formore then a few more minutes. Thank you so much again:)

cubeus19 wrote:One thing that kinda troubles me about the shroud being a forgery has to do with the fact that it was kept by the roman catholic church for so long.

Given the track record of the catholic church on doctrine issues (salvation through faith AND works), worship of Mary and the saints, plus with the way they treat their choir boys and just the fact they are a very controlling establishment, makes me wonder if they could create something like the shroud to impress and subdue the masses and thus control them more.

Something like this could have easily kept primitive atheist groups from starting and causing dissent with the catholic church. I hope that's not the case, but it's something that has been on my mind while reading about the shroud.

Really? Do people really still think that? I feel like such a failure if this is the case.

Byblos wrote:

cubeus19 wrote:One thing that kinda troubles me about the shroud being a forgery has to do with the fact that it was kept by the roman catholic church for so long.

Given the track record of the catholic church on doctrine issues (salvation through faith AND works), worship of Mary and the saints, plus with the way they treat their choir boys and just the fact they are a very controlling establishment, makes me wonder if they could create something like the shroud to impress and subdue the masses and thus control them more.

Something like this could have easily kept primitive atheist groups from starting and causing dissent with the catholic church. I hope that's not the case, but it's something that has been on my mind while reading about the shroud.

Really? Do people really still think that? I feel like such a failure if this is the case.

My sentiments exactly Byblos hehe

cubeus19 wrote:One thing that kinda troubles me about the shroud being a forgery has to do with the fact that it was kept by the roman catholic church for so long.

Given the track record of the catholic church on doctrine issues (salvation through faith AND works), worship of Mary and the saints, plus with the way they treat their choir boys and just the fact they are a very controlling establishment, makes me wonder if they could create something like the shroud to impress and subdue the masses and thus control them more.

Something like this could have easily kept primitive atheist groups from starting and causing dissent with the catholic church. I hope that's not the case, but it's something that has been on my mind while reading about the shroud.

Wow. I'm not Catholic and I have some issues in places with some of the Doctrine, but even with that, I believe someone can be Catholic and saved .... I'll even go one further and say the same for Protestants ...

I don't have any real strong opinion on the shroud. Frankly it seems to me to be extremely unlikely to be authentic, but it's a moot point for me, as I don't need material confirmation of my faith in this regards. Some things you should probably know however with the stereotypes you've jumped to here:

1. Salvation through faith and works, is something that can be imputed to Catholicism (depdending upon the time, place and writers you might be examining) but also many elements of Protestantism. If you haven't already, I suggest you take a look on the internet for the joint statement regarding faith put out by the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church. You may be surprised at what you find.

2. Worship of Mary and the Saints, again, that's an exageration and imputing things to the Church that they would not define themselves.

3. The cheap shot about the choir boys ... I don't defend the RCC in this regard, at least those who worked to cover-up things. I know better however than to believe that these types of things characterize just the RCC. Below is a link to a blog article with references that examines similar stats in Protestant Churches.

http://forum.chnetwork.org/index.php?topic=2571.0;wap2

Frankly, the stats in some Protestant denominations are worse. Whatever you want to say about "controlling establishments" can be said on pretty much the same basis of many protestant denominations and independent churches too. The forms of control may differ, but they're mostly pressed from the same mold in terms of hierarchichal leadership and clergy/laity divides.

I know about this too, first hand. The 20 years I spent in formal ministry roles included 5 years in denominational district leadership support. Let's just say I saw enough to confirm what i've said above.

I know it's a tempting thing and our secular culture has taken the very public and large scale elements of the RCC scandal, but what you don't realize is when Protestants pick up on that attempt to use it to "score points" and comfort themselves over how much better they are than those "dirty catholics" they are handing that same media and secular culture the club which will beat them as effectively as the RCC.

Leaping from that to a conspiracy theory about the shroud just defies logic as well. Why stop there? Let's throw in 911 and see if we can find a secret cannibalistic sect housed in the basement of the Vatican ....

Anyway, my primary point is to be careful using these types of characterizations of others who follow Christ regardless of principled opposition to their doctrines in areas or their traditions. You're part of your own traditions and doctrines that may well fare no better. I have pretty much rejected on principle all institutional churches at least so far as their structure and leadership practices go. I tend to believe that as well as the natural inclination of human nature to abuse power and sin is ample explanation without trying to paint on particular sector of the church as worse than another.