Evidence for God from Science

puritan lad wrote:1.) Since Israel is the OT Church, then the role of NT and OT Prophecy are the same. Both are inspired by God (see 2 Peter 1:19-21 for a NT example), and therefore are inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Besides, the Pentecostal outpouring itself was a fulfillment of Joel's OT Prophecy concerning prophecy. Nowhere did Joel suggest that the definition of prophecy would be changed (a position that charismatics require, but cannot justify).

2.) How can there be apostles today when the qualifications of an apostle are???
a.) Be an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ (Acts 1:22, 1 Cor. 9:1).
b.) Be appointed to the position by Christ himself (Luke 6:13, Gal 1:1).
c.) Validate that appointment with signs and wonders (2 Cor. 12:12).

Clearly no one alive today meets the first two requirements, and I would suggest that #3 is also out, but that can be debated.

Help me here. Where is the scriptural support for Israel being the OT church. Israel was under the covenant of the Law. The NT church is under the covenant of grace.
2a.) Paul witnessed a vision of the resurrected Christ. Why can't a person see a vision of the resurrected Christ today?
2b.) Rom 16:7-8: Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. NASU
Acts 14:14-15: But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out (NASU) Andronicus, Junias and Barnabas were not among the twelve apostles that Jesus appointed.
2c.) Signs and wonders still happen today.

Help me here. Where is the scriptural support for Israel being the OT church. Israel was under the covenant of the Law. The NT church is under the covenant of grace.

Really? So the OT saints weren't under a Covenant of Grace? How were they saved?

You exegesis of Romans 16 is quite sloppy. The more accurate reading is that "Andronicus and Junias... are of note among the apostles", meaning that the apostles regarded these men highly. But even if we grant that these men were Apostles, that doesn't change the Biblical qualifications. They would have been eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection, ordained personally by Christ, and validated their position with signs, wonders, and miracles. As for why Christ doesn't personally appoint apostles today, it is because He has revealed Himself in His Word. The church today is built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles, and that foundation does not need to be relaid. Inspired prophets and apostles are no longer necessary because their work is complete.

Regarding signs and wonders, I'm glad you wrote this. Certainly God performs miracles today. But He does not give the apostolic gifts such as signs, wonders, and gifts of healing. That is where the rubber meets the road when if comes to the continuation of apostolic gifts. Charismatics who claim to recieve direct revelation from God are a dime a dozen (on the basis that they say they do, nothing more). But those who have the gift of healing are non-existent (aside from the snake oil salesmen on TBN). I find it strange that they quote these passages to support their own revelations, but don't possess the other gifts like the ability to drink poison. (Please don't try this to prove your point). I have met literally thousands of charismatics full of so-called divine revelation (all of which was either subjective, or totally false). But oddly, no one had the real ability to heal, which would be quite objective. Even the pharisees could not deny the abilities of the apostles to heal.

puritan lad wrote:

Help me here. Where is the scriptural support for Israel being the OT church. Israel was under the covenant of the Law. The NT church is under the covenant of grace.

Really? So the OT saints weren't under a Covenant of Grace? How were they saved?

You exegesis of Romans 16 is quite sloppy. The more accurate reading is that "Andronicus and Junias... are of note among the apostles", meaning that the apostles regarded these men highly. But even if we grant that these men were Apostles, that doesn't change the Biblical qualifications. They would have been eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection, ordained personally by Christ, and validated their position with signs, wonders, and miracles. As for why Christ doesn't personally appoint apostles today, it is because He has revealed Himself in His Word. The church today is built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles, and that foundation does not need to be relaid. Inspired prophets and apostles are no longer necessary because their work is complete.

Regarding signs and wonders, I'm glad you wrote this. Certainly God performs miracles today. But He does not give the apostolic gifts such as signs, wonders, and gifts of healing. That is where the rubber meets the road when if comes to the continuation of apostolic gifts. Charismatics who claim to recieve direct revelation from God are a dime a dozen (on the basis that they say they do, nothing more). But those who have the gift of healing are non-existent (aside from the snake oil salesmen on TBN). I find it strange that they quote these passages to support their own revelations, but don't possess the other gifts like the ability to drink poison. (Please don't try this to prove your point). I have met literally thousands of charismatics full of so-called divine revelation (all of which was either subjective, or totally false). But oddly, no one had the real ability to heal, which would be quite objective. Even the pharisees could not deny the abilities of the apostles to heal.

Eph 4:1-16
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

"WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
NASU

God does not change. He gave gifts to men-some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers until certain qualifications are met. IMHO those qualifications have not been met yet (as evidenced by this topic and others on the gifts of the Holy Spirit).

1 Cor 12:27-31
Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
NASU

1 Cor 12:1-11
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
NASU


When do we stop desiring the greater gifts? When do we stop seeking the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good? How do we come to the unity of the faith, how do we come to the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ without the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Eph 4:1-16
Therefore I, ..., implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

May you be blessed as you seek Him.

God does not change. He gave gifts to men-some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers until certain qualifications are met. IMHO those qualifications have not been met yet (as evidenced by this topic and others on the gifts of the Holy Spirit).

No one is saying God changes. However, it is most certainly true that how He covenants with man on this Earth does change. Because God implements different programs on this Earth has no impact on his immutable nature. When God bestowed these gifts on the disciples did he change? And conversely he would not change if they were revoked or suspended.

There is little question regarding how much phony baloney we orginated out of the charasmatic movement today. So, it would only make sense to hold it to a standard. If you claim tongues, then the healings ought to be testable and observable as well. As would be the evidence of an Acts 2 display of tongues.

jlay wrote:There is little question regarding how much phony baloney we orginated out of the charasmatic movement today.

While this is true, I don't want to put the entire movement in league with the kooky fringe (ie. the alleged manifestations of "slain in the spirit" and "barking like dogs" have more in common with Hindu ashrams than with anything in biblical Christianity). Those charismatics who have really studied the issue are quite aware of the ramifications of continuing revelation and sola scriptura. Consider this quote from Wayne Grudem:

"I am asking those in the cessationist camp to give serious thought to the possibility that prophecy in ordinary New Testament churches was not equal to Scripture in authority, but was simply a very human - and sometimes partially mistaken - report of something the Holy Spirit brought to someone’s mind". (Wayne Grudem, The Gift of Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14 p. 74.)

The problem for Grudem, as I have already pointed out, is that the above "report" is not prophecy, by definition.

"For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:21)

Sola Scriptura!

Pl. Thanks for clarifying. I know many in the charasmatic movement who are just as disturbed by the goings on. I serve in a ministry that was established by Pentecostals who are such. I also have a mixed bible study/ prayer group that includes charasmatics as well.

Excesses and misuse of Charismata is an argument for balance and caution, not necessarily an argument for elimination.

Bart,

Of course we all agree that there are abuses regarding the charasmata. With my charasmatic friends we choose to focus on the things where we are completely united, and not make issue of these matters.
ultimately though it does all get back to a unity issue within the body of Christ. This isn't a matter of tongues is good for you, but not for me.

I guess a larger question the I often ponder is that two opposing views can't both be right. Is tongues, as it is practiced in the Pentecostal movement, genuine? Obviously PL would say, no. I too am very skeptical having witnessed several examples over the years. And I assure you I've been as open minded as I think I can be, even greatly lamenting this matter in prayer, not wanting to miss out on anything God's desire for me or other believers.

Either it is wrong to assert that these gifts have ceased, and that this position is causing division amongst the body, in addition to missing out on God's gifts. Or, they have ceased, and these gifts are false signs, and their practice is causing division. Perhaps I've left out a 3rd possibility and you are welcome to share if you think I have.

If these gifts are genuine, then we should be desiring them. And if they are false we should expose and denounce their practice. I don't see Romans 14 applying to this practice.

I understand Jlay.

I grew up with a close association to the United Pentecostal Churches of Canada, Assemblies of God and the denomination I was a part of for many years the C&MA has a lot of comomon ground with the Assemblies of God. I also attended Oral Roberts University so believe me, I'm familiar with and have been exposed to a great deal of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

I don't consider myself to be a part of it today (I'm not sure I ever was although for a period of time and because of the great exposure I earnestly sought to understand and experience what I was tought whether tongues, prophecies, prayer language, slain in the spirit etc.

I've come to the conclusion that overall if the gifts are operational today, the majority of what appears to be going on in the Charismatic movement is not how they are scripturally to be used. I don't accept the explanation that the Bible is that which is perfect in the context it is applied by cessassionists. It's inferred not clearly stated and while I accept the inspiration of the Bible, I've expressed before how I think the term "Word of God" has been co-opted from Christ in many instances to elevate the Bible to Christ's equal and I just don't accept that anymore.

I agree with your conclusion. Although I think there's other options with the spectrum you cite.

My position remains pretty close to what A.B. Simpson in the early days of the C&MA preached, namely: Seek not, Forbid not. In practice though in the C&MA when there was an exodus from the C&MA to the AoG, it pretty much in practice became Seek not, Ignore. I think the focus should be upon the Giver and not the Gifts, but that said, I'm not convinced that in the midst of all the emotionalism and inbalance that there isn't a proper place and proper instances of these gifts. I've heard some pretty amazing tales from missionaries whom I know personally, who are not particularly charismatic but who in the context of reaching people who had never heard of Christ before, the gifts manifesting in a way that validated the message to them. I'm not so sure that maybe that's the focus within the Scripture and application for today that we should see it.

Not very well organized in my thoughts necessarily, but there they are for what they're worth.

FYI: My whole family is Pentecostal, and I love them. But they believe I'm lacking the Holy Spirit, and I believe they sacrifice sound biblical doctrine for subjective (and quite questionable) experiences. I've started to knock them off one by one into the Reformed Camp, but it's a long slow process.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I understand Jlay.

I grew up with a close association to the United Pentecostal Churches of Canada, Assemblies of God and the denomination I was a part of for many years the C&MA has a lot of comomon ground with the Assemblies of God. I also attended Oral Roberts University so believe me, I'm familiar with and have been exposed to a great deal of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

I don't consider myself to be a part of it today (I'm not sure I ever was although for a period of time and because of the great exposure I earnestly sought to understand and experience what I was tought whether tongues, prophecies, prayer language, slain in the spirit etc.

I've come to the conclusion that overall if the gifts are operational today, the majority of what appears to be going on in the Charismatic movement is not how they are scripturally to be used. I don't accept the explanation that the Bible is that which is perfect in the context it is applied by cessassionists. It's inferred not clearly stated and while I accept the inspiration of the Bible, I've expressed before how I think the term "Word of God" has been co-opted from Christ in many instances to elevate the Bible to Christ's equal and I just don't accept that anymore.

I agree with your conclusion. Although I think there's other options with the spectrum you cite.

My position remains pretty close to what A.B. Simpson in the early days of the C&MA preached, namely: Seek not, Forbid not. In practice though in the C&MA when there was an exodus from the C&MA to the AoG, it pretty much in practice became Seek not, Ignore. I think the focus should be upon the Giver and not the Gifts, but that said, I'm not convinced that in the midst of all the emotionalism and inbalance that there isn't a proper place and proper instances of these gifts. I've heard some pretty amazing tales from missionaries whom I know personally, who are not particularly charismatic but who in the context of reaching people who had never heard of Christ before, the gifts manifesting in a way that validated the message to them. I'm not so sure that maybe that's the focus within the Scripture and application for today that we should see it.

Not very well organized in my thoughts necessarily, but there they are for what they're worth.

Bart, you are so close - what is missing? Agape as John wrote of in the book of first John. The gifts were manifestations of that Love displayed in shaping, cherishing, nurturing, and convicting believers. In this church world, all of us are guilty of lovingless or brothers and sisters in Christ rather than actually take the time to love them as Jesus taught. The issues is not emotional love, or a feeling, but degrees of cherishing, building up, training, discipline, nurturing,fostering, exhorting, taking care of each other in the body of Christ. All the gifts were for that purpose. Why so little gifting seen today? Look at all the infighting and cat fighting going on, just over tongues as but one example: add to it the abuses and more than that, the power grab that the fallen human ego seeks for applause, fame, etc and etc – where is the compassion-love discipleship – the cost to our souls to live a life that reflects the love of God - takes the time to learn to relfect his love?

Does God still heal today, yes! I know personally a paralyzed from the waist down man now walks and a deaf guy who can now hear, a baby whose collapsed lungs absolutely healed – all doctor verified. Then, other times, no one healed and the person died or stayed afflicted. Why - Here is my hypothesis on this matter: Sometimes Jesus healed everybody, other times he told a person to do something, other times he healed only one out of a crowd, ignored the crowd and healed only one, other times he put mud in the eyes, other times someone sought healing after much anguish in finally reaching Jesus – nothing has changed. When Jesus healed, Matthew writes that he was moved with compassion. So, is Jesus moved by our displays of His loving compassion thru us that takes the time to cherish, nurture, foster, or our lack of reflecting God’s love that takes the time to cherish/nurture/foster? Something to think about?
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I agree B.W. I know of healing testimonies as well that go well beyond sensationalism and hype and have been medically verified (at least the change or lack of a previous condition.)

When we get focused upon form and doctrine in the manner that you describe above and then cease to function at the grass roots as the body of Christ then, just like the situation described in Corinth, we're wide open to abuses and self-aggrandizing. That's true of most areas, not just spiritual gifts. It's one of the reasons I'm more focused upon organic/simple church than institutional church. When ever you get form elevated over function, and mechanical approaches elevated above healthy relationship then there's a problem that goes to the very core of whom we are and how we are to relate with one another as a body, under the headship of Christ.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I agree B.W. I know of healing testimonies as well that go well beyond sensationalism and hype and have been medically verified (at least the change or lack of a previous condition.)

When we get focused upon form and doctrine in the manner that you describe above and then cease to function at the grass roots as the body of Christ then, just like the situation described in Corinth, we're wide open to abuses and self-aggrandizing. That's true of most areas, not just spiritual gifts. It's one of the reasons I'm more focused upon organic/simple church than institutional church. When ever you get form elevated over function, and mechanical approaches elevated above healthy relationship then there's a problem that goes to the very core of whom we are and how we are to relate with one another as a body, under the headship of Christ.

Amen! I knew you'ld understand.

You mentioned my main reason for attending one of those samller organic /simple churches!
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It's inevitable, after 3,707 posts, the law of averages dictate that eventually, I'd get one right!

I have had experience with the Pentecostal movement, My nana attended when she was alive the Assemblies Of God church here in Australia. I would occassionally attend with her from the ages of 10 through to 15. I witnessed ''slaying of the sprirt'', speaking in toungues and a very loud, over-the-top style of worship. I never enjoyed the experience, I went becasue I loved my nan dearly and wanted to spend time with her and there was as element of wanting to please her, I was a child. Nothing about what I experienced felt genuine. I had the beauty of that child-faith that accompanies children, I loved God with all my heart and had a personal relationship with him. It was his peace and stillness that resonated in me above all else, when I attended these churches it was chaotic, loud, fist-bashing enthusiasm, people falling on there floor at times and writhing around and over-bearing. It did not coincide with My father's stillness or the gentile, strong with authority and peacefull way in which Jesus preached.
Speaking in toungues was a gift given at pentecost for a very specific purpose, so that the diciples could preach to all in their native toungue. It was not a special Holy spirit language, this is not needed, the holy Spirit speaks directly to our spirit, no language of any description is needed. What I saw within this church was people randomly yelling gibberish, yes I was a child, but a very bright, perspective one, I listened very carefully for any evidence of actual languages, even though within this setting of the church the purpose was baffling, I over the years studied a number of different languages, and My father is a native from Finland and there was zero sign of anything being spoken but gibberish. Then why would so many sane, beleivers par-take in such a thing??
What was being preached within the church was this notion that has been spoken of that it was somehow ''proof'' that the person had the Holy Spirit. There was this spoken and unspoken pressure to speak in toungues, why would you attend church, what would be the point of being baptized if we could not manifest The Holy Spirit, Did you want to be the only person sitting there not yelling out this celestrial Holy Spirit language?? This type of enviroment, along with the pressure and the noise and chaos incites people to behave in a way that is no more than pack mentality and/or mass hysteria. I watched my Nan fall into this trap and she was a strong, independant woman.
If you are taking this gift outside the church and coming across individuals who you cannot preach the salvation of our Saviour and King to becasue of a language barrier and the Holy Spirit blesses you in such a tremendous way that you are able to speak their toungue without ever learning it, then Glory be to our Father!! You are surely blessed and the Holy Spirit is working within you in such a magnificent way. Yes I believe that is possible, I believe anything is possible with The Almighty. But what I experienced within the Penetecostal churches was not from Our Father, I later in my mid-twenties attended one more time, and found the very same experience. This time with an added bonus of the pastor asking for donations of the green variety, here in Australia that is 100 dollars, at the time my husband and I lived in a poorer area, and no-body there looked like they could afford it, ''the level of what you give is the level of the blessing God will grant you'' was what he told us, I walked out of there and never returned.
I also went to a number of these mass healings and laying of the hands, or slaying I should say. I marveled at the fact that there were people who were blind, in wheelchairs, cancer striken, obviously extremely unwell, what a shame when these people went home as unwell or disabled as when they entered. But the incredible healing of minor illnesses was astounding to the point of pure amazement, amazement at the fact that whilst sore hips and bung kness were being healed left, right and center those in true need of the miracle of healing were not even approached. The hypocrisy was apparent but yet people were speaking their special spirit language and falling all over the floor all over the place, there was something happening and manifesting all right but it had nothing to do with The Almighty Heavenly Father. Again I do believe in miracles, Our father heals people all the time, but if a person is so blessed with The Holy Spirit and it manifest in healing and miracles then you seek the truly sick, you can make the wheelchair bound walk, you can make the blind see.
There are many good people within these churches, my Nan was one of them, but they are decieved. I know what I speak is controversial, and it is not my intention to offend anyone. I implore anyone who wants to speak and walk with truth to ask Our Father and seek The Holy spirit in its true form.