Evidence for God from Science

FFC wrote:

Enigma7457 wrote:

Harry12345 wrote:In Revelation, it says that the Tree of Life bears fruit once a month. This would be exceedinly redundant if only a one-time usage was required for immortality. Adam and Eve probably DID eat from the Tree of Life before they sinned, hence all the long lives in Genesis; their descendants inherited their 'chunk' of immortality, but it gradually deteriorated as the generations continued.

It wouldn't necessarily be redundant when you think of the population increases. As more people are born, more would need to eat from the tree, hence it would need to be produced more often.

Also, what verse in revelations is it?

Maybe you only had to eat from it once to have eternal life, but the fruit was so good your desire was to continue to eat from it.

How are you getting that? Why would it only pop up once a month then?

Why not? We don't know how big or small the tree was or how many people it could feed. It's all speculation on both of our parts.

FFC wrote:Why not? We don't know how big or small the tree was or how many people it could feed. It's all speculation on both of our parts.

So you believe the Tree of Life needs to be eaten only once to achieve immortality... but that would make us being raised in Imperishable bodies a bit redundant, wouldn't it?

Harry12345 wrote:

FFC wrote:Why not? We don't know how big or small the tree was or how many people it could feed. It's all speculation on both of our parts.

So you believe the Tree of Life needs to be eaten only once to achieve immortality... but that would make us being raised in Imperishable bodies a bit redundant, wouldn't it?

Hi Harry,

Are you denying the power of God to plant this tree and do as He so wills? Not sure I am following what you are trying to get at?
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B. W. wrote:

Harry12345 wrote:

FFC wrote:Why not? We don't know how big or small the tree was or how many people it could feed. It's all speculation on both of our parts.

So you believe the Tree of Life needs to be eaten only once to achieve immortality... but that would make us being raised in Imperishable bodies a bit redundant, wouldn't it?

Hi Harry,

Are you denying the power of God to plant this tree and do as He so wills? Not sure I am following what you are trying to get at?
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How do you know what God wills outside of what you read in Scripture? The rest is pure speculation. The life fruit, I think, needs to be eaten regularly in order to achieve immortality. You need to keep consuming the fruit; with every bite your lifespan gets a little longer. This is how I see it - it is comparable to faith in Christ: once upon-a-time faith won't work, you need to continually rely on God and trust in Him. You disagree. Fine!

Harry12345 wrote:

B. W. wrote: Hi Harry,
Are you denying the power of God to plant this tree and do as He so wills? Not sure I am following what you are trying to get at?

How do you know what God wills outside of what you read in Scripture? The rest is pure speculation. The life fruit, I think, needs to be eaten regularly in order to achieve immortality. You need to keep consuming the fruit; with every bite your lifespan gets a little longer. This is how I see it - it is comparable to faith in Christ: once upon-a-time faith won't work, you need to continually rely on God and trust in Him. You disagree. Fine!

Harry, some parts of scripture can be speculated upon.

As for eating of the tree of life, the humanities first parents were not tempted to partake of this tree. You can also speculate that they were partaking from this tree before the fall as they had no desire to eat any more from it. You can also say they only ate once from it too, it does not matter. God place eternity in the heart of humanity the bible reveals. It does not matter what we speculate on here as it does not take anything away from the Lord's will that people live forever. There are eternal consequences.

One thing is certain, is this, that both Adam and Eve had no concept of death. From this you can deduce your own reason what went through their minds to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They thought they could away with it??

The death God mentions in the account is physical death as well as spiritual death. If you are wise you may see it also as a separation from the unity that God's love brings.

The symbolism of the tree of life points to a future event upon parts of another tree that God will provide. Only God can redeem and save humanity in a most fair and just manner that separates the wheat from the chaff. Humanity will not be allowed to save them selves as only God can save. Therefore God stopped Adam and Eve from attempting to take the tree of life as their own right to be another god that saves — mocking God's nature, character, and mercy. That was mercy!

There are many varied lessons that can be learned and taught from the account of the fall, the tree of life as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil as the symbolism is profound.

Now onto your other point - as it is written in:

Romans 6:6-10, " We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God." ESV

Hebrews 9:23-28, "Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." ESV

You see Harry; you do not need to eat regularly from the tree of life in order to achieve immortality. You do not need to keep consuming the fruit; with every bite your lifespan gets a little longer. Christ provided this once and for all on parts of a tree — Grace!

Eating the fruit form the tree of life daily is not comparable to daily partaking of faith in Christ as it is written in Hebrews 9: 26 “for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself…”

The new Birth in Christ changes a person. Sin slowly vanishes away in the life of a believer. I cannot explain how this works other than — GRACE!!!
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B. W. wrote:

Harry12345 wrote:

B. W. wrote: Hi Harry,
Are you denying the power of God to plant this tree and do as He so wills? Not sure I am following what you are trying to get at?

How do you know what God wills outside of what you read in Scripture? The rest is pure speculation. The life fruit, I think, needs to be eaten regularly in order to achieve immortality. You need to keep consuming the fruit; with every bite your lifespan gets a little longer. This is how I see it - it is comparable to faith in Christ: once upon-a-time faith won't work, you need to continually rely on God and trust in Him. You disagree. Fine!

Harry, some parts of scripture can be speculated upon.

As for eating of the tree of life, the humanities first parents were not tempted to partake of this tree. You can also speculate that they were partaking from this tree before the fall as they had no desire to eat any more from it. You can also say they only ate once from it too, it does not matter. God place eternity in the heart of humanity the bible reveals. It does not matter what we speculate on here as it does not take anything away from the Lord's will that people live forever. There are eternal consequences.

One thing is certain, is this, that both Adam and Eve had no concept of death. From this you can deduce your own reason what went through their minds to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They thought they could away with it??

The death God mentions in the account is physical death as well as spiritual death. If you are wise you may see it also as a separation from the unity that God's love brings.

The symbolism of the tree of life points to a future event upon parts of another tree that God will provide. Only God can redeem and save humanity in a most fair and just manner that separates the wheat from the chaff. Humanity will not be allowed to save them selves as only God can save. Therefore God stopped Adam and Eve from attempting to take the tree of life as their own right to be another god that saves — mocking God's nature, character, and mercy. That was mercy!

There are many varied lessons that can be learned and taught from the account of the fall, the tree of life as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil as the symbolism is profound.

Now onto your other point - as it is written in:

Romans 6:6-10, " We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God." ESV

Hebrews 9:23-28, "Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." ESV

You see Harry; you do not need to eat regularly from the tree of life in order to achieve immortality. You do not need to keep consuming the fruit; with every bite your lifespan gets a little longer. Christ provided this once and for all on parts of a tree — Grace!

Eating the fruit form the tree of life daily is not comparable to daily partaking of faith in Christ as it is written in Hebrews 9: 26 “for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself…”

The new Birth in Christ changes a person. Sin slowly vanishes away in the life of a believer. I cannot explain how this works other than — GRACE!!!
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Yes, but you have to keep your faith in Christ in order to be saved, like if you stopped having faith in Christ, you'll slowly drift away from God (the Tree of Life) just like Man's lifespan slowly decreased as they were sperated from God. God doesn't come once into our life, then disappears. God comes into our life and stays... and we rely on Him and trust in Him continually, just like you have to eat the life fruit continually.

One thing is certain, is this, that both Adam and Eve had no concept of death.

How are you getting that? For once thing, Adam and Eve had an advanced vocabulary when they were created and another thing is they could have seen animals die.

Harry12345 wrote: Yes, but you have to keep your faith in Christ in order to be saved, like if you stopped having faith in Christ, you'll slowly drift away from God (the Tree of Life) just like Man's lifespan slowly decreased as they were sperated from God. God doesn't come once into our life, then disappears. God comes into our life and stays... and we rely on Him and trust in Him continually, just like you have to eat the life fruit continually.

John 10:27-29, " 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." ESV

2 Timothy 1:9, "who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began." ESV

So do you mean a person stays saved by works of faith, and therefore, human beings are more powerful than God?

One thing is certain, is this, that both Adam and Eve had no concept of death.

Harry12345 wrote:How are you getting that? For once thing, Adam and Eve had an advanced vocabulary when they were created and another thing is they could have seen animals die.

Which was it that tempted them? What they already known? They would not surly die?

Genesis 3:4-5, "But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." ESV

Since you assume Adam and Eve had an advance vocabulary when they were created and from this know death by only watching animals die would not be a true because they themselves had not experienced death personally themslves. It is one thing to see and another to experience it personally.

Next, when did they see animals die? Only record of this is after the fall anything before the fall is built on speculation. Even if so, why did not the animals eat Adam and Eve while they were busy naming them? There is no record before the fall of animals eating each other either.

Adam and Eve did not know death because they had not experienced it themselves just as you do not know death but only know of it but not it, itself. From such advance vocabulary Adam and Eve, being in the image/similitude of God would know these things about God instead and this could account for the temptation:

Ecclesiastes 3:14, “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.” ESV

Ecclesiastes 3:11, “He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.” ESV
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Harry wrote:Yes, but you have to keep your faith in Christ in order to be saved, like if you stopped having faith in Christ, you'll slowly drift away from God (the Tree of Life) just like Man's lifespan slowly decreased as they were sperated from God

Harry, I think if we had to rely on our own faith to keep us saved we'd all be in big trouble. Of course this may be for another topic. I like what Paul said in Corinthians about nothing separating us from the love of God.

FFC wrote:

Harry wrote:Yes, but you have to keep your faith in Christ in order to be saved, like if you stopped having faith in Christ, you'll slowly drift away from God (the Tree of Life) just like Man's lifespan slowly decreased as they were sperated from God

Harry, I think if we had to rely on our own faith to keep us saved we'd all be in big trouble. Of course this may be for another topic. I like what Paul said in Corinthians about nothing separating us from the love of God.

Huh? Well, if we relied on our ability to eat it wouldn't make us live forever, would it? But with the Tree of Life, it can. And with Jesus Christ's sacrafice, our faith would in fact be our contribution to our Salvation.

Harry12345 wrote:

FFC wrote:

Harry wrote:Yes, but you have to keep your faith in Christ in order to be saved, like if you stopped having faith in Christ, you'll slowly drift away from God (the Tree of Life) just like Man's lifespan slowly decreased as they were sperated from God

Harry, I think if we had to rely on our own faith to keep us saved we'd all be in big trouble. Of course this may be for another topic. I like what Paul said in Corinthians about nothing separating us from the love of God.

Huh? Well, if we relied on our ability to eat it wouldn't make us live forever, would it? But with the Tree of Life, it can. And with Jesus Christ's sacrafice, our faith would in fact be our contribution to our Salvation.

Well that is where we differ, Harry. I don't rely on my ability to gain anything from God or to keep anything that God has given me.

Harry12345 wrote:

FFC wrote:

Harry wrote:Yes, but you have to keep your faith in Christ in order to be saved, like if you stopped having faith in Christ, you'll slowly drift away from God (the Tree of Life) just like Man's lifespan slowly decreased as they were sperated from God

Harry, I think if we had to rely on our own faith to keep us saved we'd all be in big trouble. Of course this may be for another topic. I like what Paul said in Corinthians about nothing separating us from the love of God.

Huh? Well, if we relied on our ability to eat it wouldn't make us live forever, would it? But with the Tree of Life, it can. And with Jesus Christ's sacrafice, our faith would in fact be our contribution to our Salvation.

The faith that saves us is not considered a work. It is more of a surrender. Specifically a surrender of your will for Gods will. Did we choose to surrender? Yes, but it was a choice of response, not of initiation.

Its sort of like when you go to the barber. You are not cutting your hair. The barber is. You are just surrendering your hair to him because you have faith that He will not mess it up. He advertised to let you know he was there available to cut your hair. And others gave recommendation that he cuts hair well.(not a full comparison of salvation, but close on the surrender part.)

Romans 10:13 For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
We do not have to continue to call.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

The word "believe" here in greek is in the aorist tense. The aorist tense shows pinpoint action (sudden/onetime) event.

And if at the moment you believe, and you then had everlasting life, if you could then lose it, then it would not have been everlasting then would it.???

But our belief must be in the the right thing and for the correct reason. It is the realization that we are too sinful to be able to save ourselves, and that only through trusting Christ enough to call upon him can we be saved. I believe that if we trust this way God will keep us trusting, even though there may be times that we might fall away in deisobedience. But God chastizes those whom he loves to try and bring us back into obedience. But even if we do not come back into obedience we still have everlasting life as long as we have the correct foundation, we would only suffer the loss of rewards.

1 Cor 4
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Harry12345 wrote:...Huh? Well, if we relied on our ability to eat it wouldn't make us live forever, would it? But with the Tree of Life, it can. And with Jesus Christ's sacrafice, our faith would in fact be our contribution to our Salvation.

What does faith mean to you? What is the purpose of faith?
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