Evidence for God from Science

Both "Hades" and "sheol" mean the grave, so you are correct in saying that people will go there to await the final judgement after the resurrection. No one will be judged before this time.

I dealt with this issue in another thead, Jen. It is incorrect to simply equate Sheol with grave. It may include the concept, but it is broader than that.

By way of analogy, it is like saying the word "salvation" always means "going to heaven." While it can have the connotation, that is far from the only use of the word. It is far broader than that, and many an error have come from restricting the understanding of the word. The same thing is happening here.

To put it plain and simple, the Hebrew word translated "hell" in the old testament is "sheol". It has a new testament counterpart "hades". They both mean "the grave", pit, world of the dead or hell". Hell is the tomb. A second Greek word translated "hell" is found only once in the N.T. The word is "tartaros", and it refers to angels, not people. There is one final word that can be translated as "hell" or "hellfire", and that word is Gehenna. This word represents the "Valley of Hinnom". This came to represent a place of final punishment for all who go there. But again, usage of the word "hell" is redundant. Since "it is appointed unto men once to die" then everyone does die and goes to "hell" literally. Since "hell" is simply the grave.

jenwat3 wrote:To put it plain and simple, the Hebrew word translated "hell" in the old testament is "sheol". It has a new testament counterpart "hades". They both mean "the grave", pit, world of the dead or hell". Hell is the tomb. A second Greek word translated "hell" is found only once in the N.T. The word is "tartaros", and it refers to angels, not people. There is one final word that can be translated as "hell" or "hellfire", and that word is Gehenna. This word represents the "Valley of Hinnom". This came to represent a place of final punishment for all who go there. But again, usage of the word "hell" is redundant. Since "it is appointed unto men once to die" then everyone does die and goes to "hell" literally. Since "hell" is simply the grave.

Not quite . . . "Hades" does not mean grave. It doesn't mean anything like it. The Greek word for "grave" is mnema. Another word is taphos. This particular word is very emphatically a literal grave, and related words refer to the monuments and cemetaries associated with these holes in the ground.

Let's compare that to the words related to "hades"

Katachthonios: "the wordl below, what is beneath the earth, under the earth." (See Phil 2:10)
Bathos: "a place or region which is low - 'the world below'" (See Eph 4:9)
Abussos: "a location of the dead and a place where the Devil is kept" (See Rev 20:3)
Gehenna: "A place of punishment for the dead." (See Lk 12:5)

Concerning Hades itself: "It is also possible that in addressing a Greco-Roman audience Luke would have used hades in a context implying punishment and torment, since this was a typical Greco-Roman view of the next world."

All quotes and definitions here are from Louw and Nida's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains. Again, I appreciate your arguments, but the data you are reasoning from is simply incorrect.

Maybe you could get a book of Greek?

jenwat3 wrote:Maybe you could get a book of Greek?

Maybe I should? I don't suppose that 18 hours in the subject was enough? Tell me . . . would you like me to refer to any other standard lexicons other than Louw and Nida? Perhaps the TDNT or the BADG? Or maybe a grammar floats your boat? I have Wallace and Mantey here. If those don't do it for you, let me know and I'll go pick up a copy of Robertson from my library.

I'm at your service, ma'am.

At my service? And only 18 hours?

jenwat3 wrote:At my service? And only 18 hours?

Jen, I think that was 18 hours only today (Note: no comma is missing ).

Yeah, understood! And in the above post I was being a smartie.

Hi Pierac,

I wanted to respond to you sooner but my father just passed away on December 22, 2007 — 420 am and I was not able. I just returned back home and will respond in due course.

Have you witnessed death? Have you spoken with hospice workers, nurses who have? Those who have report feeling, sensing, or even seeing the spiritual parts of a person, some may call soul or spirit, depart? Yes, you feel it once the last breath is taken. Too many witnesses who have seen the dying depart to ignore their testimony.

You are misapplying scripture and adding meanings that do not apply in your scripture quotes. I have shown you to be intellectually dishonest. How can we trust anything you write? You have taken scripture out of context in order to proof text your doctrine — sad that you do this…

Let's look again at Early Church Fathers and also if your proof text are true your proved Jesus a liar in Like 16:19-31 as well as elsewhere. I believe in Christ Jesus and what he says — not you…

Justin Martyr — First Apology -- Chap. LIX. — Plato's Obligation to Moses:

“And that you may learn that it was from our teachers — we mean the account given through the prophets — that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials God at first formed the world, spake thus: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so.” So that both Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was made out of the substance spoken of before by Moses. And that which the poets call Erebus, we know was spoken of formerly by Moses. (Comp. Deu_32:22)”

Justin makes it plain that Plato may have well borrowed from Moses as Moses was before Plato. For you to claim Christians borrowed from Plato and teach the same Immortality of the Soul as Plato is disingenuous and disgusting.

Plato's immortality of the soul is akin to reincarnation and when the words translated in Justin's works - immortality of the soul mean — reincarnation and that the soul existed always and had no beginning or end.

Christian do-not believe this and how dare you accuse us of such by twisting the early church fathers discourses to suite your own flavor of doctrine! The soul/spirit has a beginning and it continues because God so wills that it does. The bible teaches this.

Listen carefully to these words of Christ:

Luke 20:34-38, “And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him." ESV

Look at the last verse and apply your doctrines meaning to the word death in verse: “38 - Now he is not God of the soul sleepers, but of the living, for all live to him."

Your doctrine does not distinguish the future resurrection when soul/spirit are rejoined with one's new body either to everlasting punishment or life eternal in the new heavens/earth. You do not believe in the triune nature of humanity or even of God whose image we were fashioned in.

Luke 16:19-30 account reveals where the soul/spirit goes before the resurrection and now that Christ has lead captivity captive. The promise that Christians have now is that when one is absent from the body [mortal death] is to be at home and present with the Lord, not asleep in oblivion.

2 Corinthians 5:8-9, “We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord. 9 But whether we are at home with the Lord or away from him, we still try our best to please him.” CEV

Justin Martyr and the early church fathers taught eternal punishment lasting forever and do not mention or ever use the word phrase 'soul sleep' as your doctrine does. When Tertullian, or Irenaeus as well as other use phrases that state that the 'soul last as long as God so wills' does not imply that souls cease to exist because they understood the words of Jesus spoken in Matthew 25:46:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

They understood punishment to be eternal so therefore the, 'soul last as long as God so wills' and that is eternal.

Deuteronomy 32:22, “For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.” ESV

Yes — Sheol is mentioned by Moses as a place where God's wrath/anger burns just as Jesus mentions in Luke 16:19-31 account.

When does eternal life begin?

How could eternal life be everlasting if one is asleep in oblivion? That is a blatant contradiction. God gives eternal life. Takes it away in a state of soul sleep then gives it back? How can that be eternal life since it ends in oblivion when one mortally dies? When is a true believer born again? After sleeping soul sleep? Or the moment they first believe in this mortal here and now? Eternal does not cease, or pause in soul sleep, if it does it is not everlasting.

Luke 18:30, “who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life." ESV

John 3:36, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” ESV

John 6:47-51, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." ESV

Partake of Christ and live forever and shall not die! Shall not soul sleep. Hence - live forever now after one dies waiting for the final resurrection. The body sleeps and decays in the dust but the soul/spirit returns to where God so wills so at the final judgment spirit, soul, and body are rejoined. These things the early church fathers taught.

Justin Martyr — Second Apology -- Chap. IX. — Eternal Punishment Not a Mere Threat:

“And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and, as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments. But since these are not unjust, and their Father teaches them by the word to do the same things as Himself, they who agree with them are not unjust. And if one object that the laws of men are diverse, and say that with some, one thing is considered good, another evil, while with others what seemed bad to the former is esteemed good, and what seemed good is esteemed bad, let him listen to what we say to this. We know that the wicked angels appointed laws conformable to their own wickedness, in which the men who are like them delight; and the right Reason, when He came, proved that not all opinions nor all doctrines are good, but that some are evil, while others are good. Wherefore, I will declare the same and similar things to such men as these, and, if need be, they shall be spoken of more at large. But at present I return to the subject.”

When does eternal begin? If not now, as soon as we are born again how can it be eternal if it forces one to sleep in a state oblivion? God wills that the soul and spirit live eternally. The soul and spirit of human beings have a beginning and it is God himself THAT WILLS that these do not end.

Ecclesiastes 3:11-22, “11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end… 14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him…17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work…21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?” ESV

Pierac — you are being disingenuous to the Christian Faith and falsely accusing us who hold fast to the true Christian Orthodox Christian Doctrines handed down from the Bible, Prophets of the bible, Jesus Christ, apostles, to the early church fathers of being heretics.

You logic is flawed. You lost credibility by you assertions. You miss-read the bible, and twist text, and word meanings to conform to your man made doctrines. Shall we educate you on bible symbolism, poetic style, and metaphors commonly used by the ancient writers of the bible so you can be corrected?

I think this would be a waste of time as you proven that you know no bounds to twist the early church fathers and distort biblical text to bombast your man made doctrine as the only most superior of all. Heretics of the past that the early Church fathers contended with did this self same thing. How can we believe anything you write?

Pierac,

Here is an example of your misquoting scripture: 1 Timothy 6:16, “who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”

Now read …

Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

1 John 3:2, “Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.”

We Christian's believe in the Trinity of God and therefore the Father is unseen and not approachable by man, but the Son is, and the Holy Spirit too — we have access to the Father.

As for you other scripture quotes, I dealt with these elsewhere. You are interpreting the word translated death as sleep and the word sleep associated with dying as meaning 'soul sleep.' The phrase 'soul sleep' is not used in the bible. You are attaching meaning of the 'soul sleep' doctrine to the words translated death and sleep:

Here is a quote from another thread concerning your opinions:

It is up to those who believe in the varied doctrines of soul sleep to disprove that there is no rest for the wicked, prove that those deceased mentioned in Ezekiel 32:17-32 are not cognizant. It is up to you to prove that Jesus deliberately lied in Luke 16:19-31 just to convey a nice moral story to conform to the modern definition of sleep to mean a state of non-being immediately after one dies. God said — “There is no rest for the wicked,” did he mean it? If so, would sleep be such rest?

I gave those, who hold to the doctrines of soul sleep, a tremendous amount of scripture that proves that the afterlife begins the second after we die. The varied doctrines of soul sleep are mere opinions of men disguised as bible.

I stated this before and it may have confused several of you when I wrote of two different judgments. So let me clarify this again: Hebrews 9:27 states plainly immediately after death comes judgment. This determines where one will reside in the afterlife. The second judgment involves both the resurrection of judgment and the resurrection of life. The second please note, involves Resurrection. To be resurrected means both body and the spiritual will be rejoined and this is known as the resurrection of the body. This is the final judgment which in essence means — final commuting of a sentence previously passed.

Those of you who believe in soul sleep erroneously define the 'resurrection judgment' only as a single solitary judgment [such as in Daniel 12:1-3]and neglect the truths the bible contain about God holding the wicked to account just as it is written:

Psalms 9:15-17, “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.” MKJV

Sheol is not the lake of fire so this is not some future event seen from the past. The wicked will be turned into Sheol. Job 26:4-6, “With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person — exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking].” JPS

Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.” ESV

Why do those of you that believe in any of the varied 'soul sleep' doctrines fail to note that the spiritual part of human beings continue after death just as Hebrews 9:27 states and Paul alludes too in Philippians1:23 as well as elsewhere.

Look again at what Jesus said as recorded in John 5:24-29, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” ESV

Jesus stated this in verse 25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…”

What does 'is now here' mean if it does not mean 'is now here'? How do you deal with what is recorded in Matthew 27: “52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.” ESV

Well according to those who believe in any of the varied doctrines of soul sleep — Matthew 27:52-53 could not have happened because it is not the time of the end! However, what Jesus said is true: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…” Yes the dead hear and are not asleep, nor do they wait in silent blissful slumber for a future event. What does 'is now here' mean if it does not mean 'is now here'?

What happened to these that were raised in the Matthew account? Did Jesus tuck them back into the earth and say, “Now sleep my child to the end — I just woke you for a little while — time to go back to bed-e-bye?” I think not.

Paul states for believer that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and again he stated that those Christians who have fallen asleep — died — will be will be with Christ in the air when he returns the second time for the resurrection of the body. Again, where do believers in Christ go immediately after they die? Answer - to reside with him awaiting the resurrection of their new bodies: 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

You see, again the doctrine of soul sleep is proved false. So doctrines of soul sleep call Jesus a liar as that is precisely what one has to do to explain away the clear teachings of the bible. Luke 16:19-31 is based on something Jesus knows as fact. Again, Christ must be made out a liar in order to protect the doctrines of men.
-
-
-

Yes, I actually have seen people pass away. I am a nurse who works in a hospice, so I have seen it plenty. All the verses you give me have nothing to do with eternal punishING, but instead eternal punishMENT. And I never once claimed sheol was a lake of fire, but it is the grave. And also, it plainly states IN SCRIPTURE, that "no man has ascended to heaven". That's it, plain and simple. Any other interpretation of this verse is what makes Christ out to be a liar. And also, I retract my earlier statement that I believe in "soul sleep". I was definitely wrong on this point, because the bible states that the soul that sins shall DIE, not sleep. We all die and will remain in our graves until the resurrection. No twisted interpretation of the bible verses can prove otherwise. So until you can come up with a verse that says "the wicked will burn forever", do not try to convince me of your way of seeing things, because I do not agree, nor will I. And just now I realized you were talking to Pierac, not me.

Jenna wrote:it plainly states IN SCRIPTURE, that "no man has ascended to heaven". That's it, plain and simple. Any other interpretation of this verse is what makes Christ out to be a liar.

Jenna, how do explain that Jesus himself also said that He was going away to prepare a place for us and will then come back and get us so that we can be with Him? Jesus is not in the grave, or in hell. Jesus is with the Father in heaven.

As for you verse it was true when Jesus said it. That is why after his death he went to Abrahams bosom to set the captives free. Now all who believe in him and what He did on the cross will ascend to heaven to be with Him...whether it be at our physical death or the rapture. This is how I see it in the scriptures anyway.

The verse says "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". John 3:13. So in other words, "but He that came down from heaven" means Jesus. So does this not mean that no one has seen heaven EXCEPT Jesus?

jenwat3 wrote:The verse says "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". John 3:13. So in other words, "but He that came down from heaven" means Jesus. So does this not mean that no one has seen heaven EXCEPT Jesus?

It could be taken to mean that at the time Jesus spoke it, which was before his atoning sacrifice and resurrection. It doesn't extend beyond that preceise point in time when He spoke it insofar as the grammar of the passage implies through verb tense etc. as far as I can see.

Ok, this does help some. What about David? Would he not have automatically gone to heaven? Or no?