Evidence for God from Science

Do you think we will be in heaven or will be rulers on earth?

Heaven is not our eternal destiny. There will be a new earth (see Isaiah 66:22-24; Rev 21-22, etc.) that we will live on forever. Each of us will have a different place and position in that new earth based on how we have lived in this life.

I really don't know where, Scripturally speaking, anybody ever got the idea that Christians go to heaven forever when we die. I know that's a popular idea in hymns and Sunday school lessons, but Scripture plainly says otherwise. Even the so-famed "streets of gold" (which is wrong; there is a STREET [singular] of gold) are in the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven.

tl;dr - our eternal destination is on the new earth, not heaven.

Very good! I'm glad we can agree on this at least!

Jac3510 wrote:Heaven is not our eternal destiny. There will be a new earth (see Isaiah 66:22-24; Rev 21-22, etc.) that we will live on forever. Each of us will have a different place and position in that new earth based on how we have lived in this life.

I really don't know where, Scripturally speaking, anybody ever got the idea that Christians go to heaven forever when we die. I know that's a popular idea in hymns and Sunday school lessons, but Scripture plainly says otherwise. Even the so-famed "streets of gold" (which is wrong; there is a STREET [singular] of gold) are in the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven.

tl;dr - our eternal destination is on the new earth, not heaven.

This is my understanding of it also. I also have come to the conclusion through some self study that in this New Earth, there will be no bodies of water, except one river flowing from the Throne.

Also Jerusalem will be HUGE, so huge that is does not conform to the physics of this life. It is a cube(ish) shape, but it is so massive that in our existence / dimension something this large would become round under its gravity. (Also it is pretty colorful)


There will be no Sun or Moon, just the Light from the Grace of God. God will be our Light literally.

jenna wrote:Yes, we physically die, but we won't receive eternal life until after the resurrection.

I noticed "God's already won" for your avatar though. If this is the case, then it logically follows that all who will receive eternal life have received eternal life no?

Now we are talking about my avatar? Seriously people, come on!

jenna wrote:Now we are talking about my avatar? Seriously people, come on!

It was a serious question.

There seems to be a contradiction with believing "God's already won" while at the same time believing we will only receive eternal life at some future resurrection.

God has already won against Satan. Satan just doesn't know it yet.

jenna wrote:God has already won against Satan. Satan just doesn't know it yet.

God has already won against Satan at what - saving people who are yet to be resurrected into eternal life?

Yes, K. Just like you run in a race. We are the marathon runners, God is the judge. But no runner gets their reward until AFTER the race is over.

So God has not already won...

According to the Oxford dictionary the term 'dead' is as follows:

1. No longer alive.
4. Unappreciative or unconscious of; insensitive to.
5. No longer effective or in use; obsolete, extinct.
6. No longer burning, extinguished.
7. Inanimate.
13. Without spiritual life.

The same dictionary describes 'death' as follows:

1. The final cessation of vital functions in an organism; the end of life.
2. The event that terminates life.
3. a. The fact or process of being killed. b. The fact or state of being dead.
4. The destruction or permanent cessation of something.

Again the Oxford defines 'state' as follows:

1. The existing condition or position of a person or thing.


With these English definitions explained accurately and without fault, let us examine the 'State of the dead'.

The NJKV by Thomas Nelson Publishers will be used for this study and all quotes will be from this version. This is an excellent version and represents a very well established translation from the original text into English.

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Gen. 2:7 “And the LORD GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”

Here we have God creating the first living human. The material part of man was made from the earth. The life came from God's own mouth “and man became a living being.” There is no allusion here that man's life had pre-existed this point in time. It was brand new and completely originated on the sixth day of creation week.

Gen. 3:3,4 “…God has said, 'you shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.”

Here we have the first introduction of the immortality of man. A vein of thought opposite to what God had said to Adam and Eve. Its propagator is none other the Satan himself.

Gen. 3:19 “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; For dust you are and to dust you shall return.”

God is being very clear to Adam and Eve of their fate concerning their sin. They are to be given back to the dust from which they were taken. “And to dust you shall return.” They were not given any other place in which to go.

Gen. 3:22 “Then the LORD GOD said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of like, and eat, and live forever.”

Had Adam and Eve been able to continue to consume from the tree of life, death would not have come to them. They would have lived forever and not died.

Death is the opposite of life.

Gen. 6:7 “So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth …”

When God created man He brought two things together, dust of the earth and the breath of life. For God to destroy what He had created then those two things must be separated. If you take away the breath of life from the dust, man is no longer a living being. He becomes the former state, which was non-existence.

Gen. 15:15 “Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.”

Gen. 25:8 “Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man full of years, and was gathered to his people.”

Those who defend the immortality of the soul often cite these passages. They claim that Abraham could only go to his fathers and be gathered to his people if there was a place where they went. They are correct, but they make the assumption that they have gone a place where they continue to exist as spirits independent of the body. We have seen that once the breath of life is taken from the body that man ceases to be a living being.
Abraham was told quite specifically that he would be gathered to his people. That is true in the fact that in Gen. 23 Abraham acquires a burial place that he might bury his dead out of his sight.
In Gen. 25:9,10 Isaac and Ishmael take Abraham to the field he purchased from the sons of Heth and was buried next to Sarah, one of his people.
Nowhere in this story is it alluded to that Abraham went on living beyond the grave.
Also noteworthy is that Isaac and Jacob are to be gathered to their people when they died. In each case they are simply buried with their family.

Psalm 30:9 “What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your truth.”

Psalm 55:23 “But You , O God, shall bring them down to the pit of destruction…”

Psalm 90:3 “You turn man to destruction, and say, “Return, O children of men.”

According to these verses, when we die we go down to the pit or grave and to destruction.

The Oxford dictionary defines 'destruction' like this.

Destruction: 1. The act or an instance of destroying; the process of being destroyed.
2. A cause of ruin; something that destroys.

Destroy: 1. Pull or break down; demolish.
2. End the existence of.
4. Make useless; spoil utterly.

It is quite clear then that to go to the grave or pit is to cease to exist as a human being.
When the breath is taken from the body, destruction takes place.
Destruction is the opposite of construction.
Construction is what God did when He made Adam.

In 1 Samuel 2:6 Hannah declares “The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.” These words uttered in praise of God declare His power to bring back to life those who have died. If one is brought up after being brought down to the grave, from where do they come?

Daniel 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to everlasting shame and contempt.”

Daniel 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

John 11:11-14 “…Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him…” “…Lord if he sleeps he will get well.” “Then Jesus told them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'”

Mark 5:35,39 “…Your daughter is dead, why trouble the Teacher any further?”
“Why make this commotion and weep? The child is not dead, but sleeping.”

The bible clearly likens death to a sleep or rest. It is not permanent, nor irreversible.
It is an unconscious state in which those who have died do not know the passage of time nor any event that happens here on earth or in heaven or hell.

There are a multitude of other texts that could have been used in this study. There are also many texts that seem to allude to some kind of disembodied life after death. However the biblical evidence for death as a sleep until the resurrection is overwhelming and impossible to refute.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

Kurieuo wrote:So God has not already won...

Yes, K. He has. Are you trying to tell me Revelations is false? Or that God cannot foretell the future?

jenna wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:So God has not already won...

Yes, K. He has. Are you trying to tell me Revelations is false? Or that God cannot foretell the future?

No. I am trying to highlight you that you appear to be contradictory with two beliefs you hold.

Kurieuo wrote:

jenna wrote:Now we are talking about my avatar? Seriously people, come on!

It was a serious question.

There seems to be a contradiction with believing "God's already won" while at the same time believing we will only receive eternal life at some future resurrection.

How exactly is there a contradiction? From an avatar on THIS BOARD that I just so happened to pick? God has already won, that much is stated in Revelations. The belief that Christians who die and receive their reward at resurrection doesn't conflict with this. They still belong to God, do they not?