Evidence for God from Science

jenwat3 wrote:

FFC wrote:Good verses Jenna.James is right that if we claim to be saved and have faith in God but don't exhibit any works our faith is pretty worthless and dead. That is only common sense. I just think that that is more of a discipleship issue than a salvation issue.

So if we have the Holy spirit, are we not then disciples?

Yes, and we are also sealed until the day of redemption. I'm just saying that we don't always exhibit fruit so that others can determine whether we are saved or not. This won't send us to hell, but God will chastise us if we continue in it. When the Holy Spirit seals us we stay sealed.

"You will know a tree by it's fruit." HMmm. Do we not exhibit fruit so that others can know that we have Christ in our lives? If they can see what He has done for us, maybe they will accept Him also.

jenwat3 wrote:"You will know a tree by it's fruit." HMmm. Do we not exhibit fruit so that others can know that we have Christ in our lives? If they can see what He has done for us, maybe they will accept Him also.

We exhibit fruit because it is the nature of a Christian who has the Holy Spirit dwelling within to produce fruit. If there's no fruit there's a serious issue. It is by our fruit that many will know us and it is a mean God uses to draw people to Himself.

Uh, isn't that what I said?

Canuckster1127 wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:"You will know a tree by it's fruit." HMmm. Do we not exhibit fruit so that others can know that we have Christ in our lives? If they can see what He has done for us, maybe they will accept Him also.

We exhibit fruit because it is the nature of a Christian who has the Holy Spirit dwelling within to produce fruit. If there's no fruit there's a serious issue. It is by our fruit that many will know us and it is a mean God uses to draw people to Himself.

I agree with both of you. However It's easier to tell an apple tree by it fruit then without, but it's still an apple tree regardless of how worthless it is at the time.

Yes, but an apple tree is still worthless and no good if it doesn't have fruit. Hey, anyone up for a game of ping-pong?

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, but an apple tree is still worthless and no good if it doesn't have fruit. Hey, anyone up for a game of ping-pong?

If my salvation depends on my own works actions and fruit then I'd be better off being an apple tree.

jenwat3 wrote:I am going to bring this up again, because while looking up scripture for another post, I think I MAY have found an answer. This is from James 2:14-26. Since it is rather longI will shorten it some, but you may want to read the whole thing if you choose. "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says they have faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them "Depart in peace, and be warm and filled", but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?"

I've addressed James 2 before, so I'll just link you to that post:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 317#p25317

Also, Bob Wilkin has written an excellent article on the passage. I would highly encourage you to read it:

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2002ii/wilkin.pdf

As far as bearing fruit, this is something you, again, have to be careful with. The "fruit" that a tree bears, when Jesus speaks of it in the Sermon on the Mount (in the context of false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing) has absolutely nothing to do with behavior. The fruit is the doctrine they teach. When Paul talks about the fruit of the Spirit, he is talking about behavior (better, character), but even this is not guaranteed to all believers. It is only guaranteed to those who abide in Christ, cf. John 15.

God bless

FFC wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, but an apple tree is still worthless and no good if it doesn't have fruit. Hey, anyone up for a game of ping-pong?

If my salvation depends on my own works actions and fruit then I'd be better off being an apple tree.

You misunderstand me. While an "apple tree" is worthless without "apples", you cannot even have apples without an apple tree to provide them. So therefore you must have both.

jenwat3 wrote:

FFC wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, but an apple tree is still worthless and no good if it doesn't have fruit. Hey, anyone up for a game of ping-pong?

If my salvation depends on my own works actions and fruit then I'd be better off being an apple tree.

You misunderstand me. While an "apple tree" is worthless without "apples", you cannot even have apples without an apple tree to provide them. So therefore you must have both.

How about a fig tree?

FFC wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:

FFC wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, but an apple tree is still worthless and no good if it doesn't have fruit. Hey, anyone up for a game of ping-pong?

If my salvation depends on my own works actions and fruit then I'd be better off being an apple tree.

You misunderstand me. While an "apple tree" is worthless without "apples", you cannot even have apples without an apple tree to provide them. So therefore you must have both.

How about a fig tree?

The free gift of eternal life comes only by faith alone in Christ alone.

Faith is defined in Heb. 11. Faith is being convinced of the truth of a proposition.

Saving faith is being convinced of the truth of a saving proposition.

Such a saving proposition is given in for example,

John 6:47

47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”

Now it may seem to be easy to believe this or even easier to say that one
believes this.

The content of faith is critically important.

Understanding what God said is critically important.

It is only when a person actually believes what God
said that appropriation is made.

If you believe what God has not actually said, then
you have not believed what He said.

One can believe in or on Christ for many things, such
as healing, riches, a car, etc. But even if you get what
you ask for, this doesn't mean that you are saved.

To obtain everlasting life one must believe in Jesus Christ
for everlasting life.

One must believe that Jesus does actually give everlasting life
to the one believing in Him for it. One must further believe
that the life HE gives is eternal.

If either of these truths are missing, then one has not believed
what Christ said, and he has not received everlasting life.

Biblicist "Believe in Christ for Eternal Life"

Biblicist, that's absolutely beautiful. I'd be a little cautious about using the term "appropriate," but that's only because I'm overly sensative to the nuances in the various terms we use when talking about these things. Still, I absolutely love how you phrased it. Nice to have a fellow free-gracer on board. At least, your words strike me as such. You definitely have used several catch-phrases that are common in our camp.

"We are not saved by believing biblical language. We are saved by believing biblical truth." ~ Zane Hodges.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It cannot be both Grace and works. They do not mix.

Eph 2:8,9
Ye are saved (justified) by grace through faith.....Faith is that we take God's word over our own and obey it.

Romans 10 wrote:8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That above is all that is necessary for justification. It is all him it is not us. He drew us and we responded in faith.

BUT ALSO

We are saved (sanctified) by grace through faith. We take God's word over our own and obey it.

All the rest of the commands, loving God and loving our neighbor are by grace through faith as well.

But faith comes by hearing the Word(rom 10:17). If you are not in the Word, you cannot increase in faith and therefore not increase in grace. It is only by increasing in grace that we start to show the fruit of the Spirit. Many people, Christians included, "try to look christian-like and serve God ", but very few people allow the Love of God to work though them. (I know I have been this way as well, but hopefuly I am growing in grace.)

Many new Christians do not immediately start studying the Bible. It may take them several years to get into it. And their life may not even show evidence of being a Christian. (consider Lot) Some never get into Bible study and die without any significant growth in grace.(think of thief on the cross). Some (most) are inconsistent in their obedience (consider David or Abraham or you or me)

1 Corinthians 3 wrote:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

We must be saved(justified) to have a foundation to build upon.
But the degree to which we are sanctified depends upon man's work. But if our work is by allowing the love of God to work through us, then when that work is tested by fire then it will remain (gold, silver, precious stones). But for those works of ours that do not remain (because done with wrong motive) when tested by the fire, we do not get a reward for those.(suffer loss)
BUT WE ARE SAVED REGARDLESS - as long as we have trusted Christ for everlasting life.

Scripture shows us that we will receive rewards in heaven. But I also believe that those christians that do not use their gifts and finish their race (show the fruits), will have regrets in Heaven that they did not serve God in the way that they could have. But they are STILL saved(justifed).

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Paul is including himself here. and he is speaking to Christians. Chritians will be judged, but never condemned to Hell. THe Great White Throne Judgement is for the unbelievers. The Judgment Seat of Christ is for believers.

Revelation 21:3-4
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This is in the context where john is talking about a new heaven and a new earth. Which happens after a thousand years. God is going to wipe away the tears from the eyes of his people. So there must be some reason to cry during these thousand years. Could this be tears of regret? Mind you these tears do not have to be because of regrets for not serving, but it could be.

YLTYLT, your exegesis of 1 Corinthians 3:15 seems to be more accurate than I often see, in that it does seem to pertain specifically to works on behalf of the church and not as an express support of unconditional eternal security. Thank you for your post.