Evidence for God from Science

Seraph wrote:2 Timothy 1:12-13, "If we endure, we will reign with Him. If we disown him, He will disown us. If we are faithless, He will remain faithful"

The earlier verse shows that if we outright disown him, we can loose our salvation. If that happens though, we can always come back to Him as shown in the prodigal son parable. I've always understood the later verse to mean that even when our faith is weak, God will still keep us with Him so I we won't loss our salvation just because our faith isn't strong enough.

Using John 3:16 to defend the stance that salvatation can't be lost is futile because it only says that salvation can be obtained. It says nothing about whether one can loose it.

Please note:

Parable of the sower - it is the soil that represents people all made of clay

Luke 8:11, “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.”

The seed is the word of God falling upon all peoples of the world. The seed will produce fruit — either rejecting God's word or accepting it. Some people are rocky and hard. They may think they are saved but are not. They refuse God's word taking root in their lives and producing change.

Some people's ground is covered with thrones and thistles, thus, choking out God's word. These were never saved even though they may think they were are at some time in their past. Troubles come and they reject God's word.

Some people's soil love to walk in the path of the world's ways. They may receive God's word at first, even with joy thinking they were saved, but the paths and allurements of the world trample out God's word from growing. These, too, were never saved.

The word of God goes forth and lands on good soil, broken, turned, plowed, and takes root producing fruit of a Christ like Life. The other soils refuse the plow's work and instead prefers to remain as they are. These were never saved. Those that disown Christ were never saved to begin with. How could they be?

Look at 1 Peter 1:5 , “who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” So is God's power unable to guard us from falling? Are we more powerful than God's power?

Look at Isaiah 40:8: "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever." ESV

God's word divides those that are plowed and ready against those that refuse and rebell (note Luke 12:51 and John 1:1).

God's word divides those that are plowed and ready against those that refuse. That is what God's word does it sorts out and divides. God's word also admonishes us to check ourselves to see if we are in the faith. This checking produces growth and provides guidance to see if we indeed are growing which leads us to a repentant life. Those that are on the world's pathway, or rocky and shallow, or over grown with thorns and thistles were never saved to begin with.

My faith is in the Lord who will never let me go. I do not sin that grace abounds because I know beyond all doubt that He will never let me go. His word transforms and changes me day by day. My Faith is in his word and not my works so that he can work through me as he so wills.

Your faith maybe in yourselves believing that you are so powerful and free to jump out of His grasp so I now ask you that believe and have faith in such doctrine is your faith in yourselves or God?

My Faith is in God's word - John 10:28, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

There I rest in him and jump not. If I tried, he would catch me with his other hand. Forever Faithful is our Heavenly Father is He not?

People love to quote John 15:1-2-15 as a proof text to support the notion of a successful jump; however, verse 16 says otherwise: “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”

Those spoken too all stumbled and fell as the bible proves. Peter denied Christ thrice. Did Peter lose his salvation because of this? Or what he wrote later found true:

1 Peter 1:5 , “who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time...”
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Post script:

Here is a hypothetical question: You — yourself next day decided to reject your faith and then died in an accident. However, if you had lived, the following day you would have returned to the Lord. Would you go to Heaven or Hell?

Some questions for you, BW, based on your view of Luke 8.

Suppose you are an unbeliever and you hear someone preach the Gospel. God pricks your heart, and you are convinced it is true. You believe and ask Jesus to save you, yada, yada. If it is true that you may "receive God's word at first," and more so that you can even find yourself "with joy thinking [you] were saved," then how can you have any assurance of your salvation?

Isn't it true that you would have to wait until you got back out into the world and found out that you were no longer tempted by the world's allures? How long must I not be tempted before I can be sure I'm saved? Yes, if I'm REALLY saved, I won't fall into all that in the future (or at least not permanently)--at least, that's what I'm gathering from you--but that's the whole point. I don't know yet that I'm REALLY saved, so I can't use that as a basis of assurance.

Further, what if it is true that there are those who "were never saved even though they may think they were," and this lack of salvation is proven by their lack of works, then how, again, can you or I know we are saved at the moment of salvation? How can I know I'm saved now? How many good works do I have to do before I know I'm saved, and how do I know that the good works that I am doing are not done in self-deceit? Surely we've all seen atheists who were loving and kind people, but their good works don't point to their salvation. So if I'm not really saved, but if I can still do works that look like the works of the saved, then how can I know that which of my works points to my salvation, and how do I know how many I have to do? How do I know that I didn't just deceive myself and sometime in the next ten years, I won't fall away, being that I was never saved in the first place and just didn't know it?

Excellent points Jac!

I am referring to the journey of faith we all walk as believers. This journey has its ups and downs and its own times when we all feel like hiding from God. Now to answer my own hypothetical question — Heaven. If grace is not grace then it is not grace. To believe in God's grace changes a person's life. We may stumble but grace will lead us home.

I remember a young teenage man who came to the Lord and one week later was killed in a car accident. Was he perfect? No. Did he still have faults? Yes! In what time he had left, he witnessed too many declaring his new identity in Christ — how could God deny him? He is with the Lord now. Grace is Grace.

It is the Lord who judges the heart of all. If one's heart is in the paths of the world, or all rocky and hard, or all overgrown with other things, I contend that that soil can still be plowed and made useful as that is the nature of the plow and the power of prayer. However, if the heart will not receive the plow — it will not take the seed. It is the Lord who judges us all at life's final call and knows all things.

According to the context of Matthew 13:1-17 such that refuse to hear and see, their love is not towards God but their allegiance is to other things; hence, their faith is not in the Lord but other means of salvation such as the paths of the world, selfish pride, and other things. The word of God is sharp cutting to the deepest intents of the heart whereby God's judgments are best.

New believers do struggle, stumble, and fall. Many come to their wit's end. Through it all, they do grow and become strong in the Lord. The suffering they experience prepares them. If they fail, the Lord still does not let them go because they belong to him. He works with them and chases after them. He provides others to calm their souls when all looks lost. It is a terrible thing to tell such going through great travails of the soul that they have lost their salvation. The love of God will not permit me to do that.

Those Jesus mentions in Matthew 13 and Luke 8 parable of the Sower on the path of the world, or all stony and rocky, or all overgrown are not new believers. The reason I say this is found in context of Matthew 13:11-17 in whom Jesus was speaking which were the lost and unsaved who have grown hard and cold. For example, many of the religious leaders of Jesus time certainly thought they were in good with God and God's favorite (they could do no wrong) but they we cold, proud, and rock hard.

Verse 19 tells of those that hear and do not understand. If they 'do not understand,' they were not healed of their blindness and hard heart. Likewise inverse 20, another hears and receives with joy but does not let the word of God take root in their lives. They understand not and are not saved. True believers have the word of God take root in their lives. Hypocrites do not and remain blind.

Verse 22 states these kinds of people hear but the cares of this world choke out the word. If choked out — they were never saved or actually believed. How could they be? This passage stresses what 1 John 2:15 -19 speaks of:

“15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions--is not from the Father but is from the world. 17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. 18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” John 2: 15-19 ESV

In Matthew 13:37 -39 Jesus changes the tone a bit but nevertheless mentions that there are only two types of people: wheat and tares (weeds): “37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.” ESV

Now, can wheat turn into a weed (tare); Or a weed (tare) turns into wheat of their own volition? According to Jesus - The answer is No.

Therefore, Eternal Security is real — once and I do mean 'once' you are saved you will remain so eternally...the moment you first believed.

Question: which type of Christ does the reader want to believe in? Christ who will never let you go or one who will let you jump ship and die? Christ is savior, is he not?

Let your faith be in Christ who will never let you go — no matter what.
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'Let your faith be in Christ who will never let you go — no matter what'

That's what i believe. I know i belong to Christ and He will not let me down, He is my Shepherd. That's my Faith

B.W. wrote:Verse 22 states these kinds of people hear but the cares of this world choke out the word. If choked out — they were never saved or actually believed. How could they be?

I'm totally on board with everything you said and can add a hearty Amen! to all of that, too. I'm trying to figure out the practical side of things, though. For instance, take the above quote. Suppose I hear the word and I think I believe--I'm convinced I believe--so I really think I'm saved. But then, a few months/years/whatever later, the cares of this world overtake me. I come to the place where I love the world more than Jesus, and all that proves just to be an example that I'm the soil with the weeds, not the one that will bear fruit.

Now, you'll say that I wasn't really saved. After all, I can't lose my salvation, and Jesus clearly says here that such people aren't saved. But if that's the case, then what about the fact that I really thought I was saved? What about the fact that I really was convinced that I believed? Isn't it true that EVERYONE who is in this condition--the condition of the cares of the world overtaking them--at one point really did believe that they were saved?

If you say yes to this, and I think you have to, then my question becomes this: How can I know, right now, that my faith is real? Perhaps I'm like everyone else in that group. They all thought they were saved, just as much as you and I think we are saved right now. They were totally unaware of the fact that they weren't REALLY saved until, of course, the time came when they demonstrate to themselves and to the world that their faith wasn't genuine. It seems to me that by your understanding of Jesus' parable, assurance is impossible.

Doesn't it make more sense to say that only the first was not saved? Jesus explicitly says that the word was taken away so that they might not believed and be saved! The latter two are examples of Christians who fall away. They are still saved (Eternal Security!), but they bear no fruit, and will suffer the judgment for their sin. Only the last group persevered, and they bear fruit to various degrees for the kingdom. All you have to do for this interpretation is understand that "fruit" is not faith, but "fruit" is the works that Christ produces through us to the extent that we abide in Him (see John 15). Thus, we can KNOW that we are saved the moment that we believe. There is no question about if our faith is genuine or not. The question is whether or not we will persevere in that faith. We DON'T know if we will do that or not, which is why we, like Paul, have to train our bodies and "make it [our] slave" (1 Cor 9:24-27), so that we don't fall away in times of temptation. If we don't fall away, a reward awaits us. If we do, we lose that reward.

Thus, we have assurance in this life of our salvation, but not yet of our eternal rewards. We strive for those, just as Paul did. Doesn't that make much more sense of the parable?

Hi Jac,

As I read the bible, it admonishes us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. It sounds like to me in the example you provided that this examination process is still going on despite a set back. I mention this because it sounds like in your example that this individual has something gnawing him in the back of his mind about his going back into the world. Yes, the bible does teach on rewards and loss of rewards believers will have.

How does one have the full assurance they are saved? From my own experience as well as counseling other Christians, I say when one worries about it, this is a sure sign they are saved. When they have something gnawing on their conscience about what they are doing is a sure sign the Holy Spirit is at work in their lives in some manner only God's knows.

Now if he did not have this conviction, then I would say he was never saved. If the person in your example does have something drawing and gnawing at him, then I would say he is saved because the Holy Spirit is chasing him, convicting him to return, which he will in do in due time (John 16:8, 13).

I look at it this way, only God knows who are his and those that are his learn during this life to depart from iniquity. This does not mean we become sinlessly perfect in this life, rather we learn lesson's form life that teach us to leave sin behind. Look at the parable of the Prodigal Son. He went into the world but later returned. Sometimes, this happens in a Christian's life.

I think Jesus is alluding to this in Luke 15:4-7: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.' 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” ESV

Jesus will go after those that stray and bring them home and not just let them walk away. During the process of straying the sheep learns lessons that could not be learned otherwise. Such is the power, grace, and wonder of God!

My concern would be if the person has no conviction, no drawing to return, and no feeling of confusion over what they have done or did. Then I would say they were never Christ's sheep.

I know there will be those that come across this thread line reading it who thinks they have strayed and have lost their salvation. Why are you reading this? Why are you here? If you were truly lost and doomed, you would not be reading these lines now! Something is drawing and gnawing at you to return to Christ — well do so now! It is time to return.

You may have issues with God and or his people in church to work out which chased you away from the flock. Now you are reading this, not knowing why or how you found this website. Well, you are being drawn to return. You have learned lessons that only the Lord can teach in an omni-personal way. So I ask you to simply return to the Lord who has walked miles upon miles year after years to gather you back into his fold.

Jesus will never let you go. He will not let you jump ship and die. Christ is the Savior who seeks those who are lost. Return to Jesus and Let your faith be in Christ who will never let you go — no matter what.

If this is you, please pray this simple prayer: “Lord Jesus, have mercy upon me a sinner! I have strayed! Have mercy upon me Lord Jesus…I hurt inside and the burdens grow everyday. Lord Jesus, have mercy upon me a sinner, I have strayed — pick me up and bear me home…Amen”
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You said that if a person is worried about their salvation, that's a sign that they are really saved. But isn't that actualy proof that they don't believe the Gospel?

John 3:16 says WHOEVER BELIEVES has everlasting life. They read that, and they say, "Well, I've believed, BUT what about . . .?" They have doubts only because they don't believe Jesus. If a person believes Jesus, they have no doubts. That is what it means to believe Jesus. If He says, "You have life," and I say, "Well, I don't know about that," then you are saying He's wrong.

Any teaching, then, that undermines complete and total assurance by telling us to look at our works in ANY WAY to confirm our salvation is a false gospel. It makes Jesus out to be a liar. It is either true that WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, or it is not. If it is, then all of our works or lack there of have absolutely no bearing on the issue whatsoever. If it is true, then a person can believe and love the world and sin every which way and still know that they are saved, AND be right about it. If it is not true, a person can believe and be good and keep all the commandments and be tormented as to whether or not they are saved and they may or may not be.

Bottom line: if a person's works are an indicator as to whether or not they are saved or unsaved, then John 3:16 is invalidated. Thus, any person who says that our works confirm our salvation (or deny it), at worst, does not believe the Gospel, and at best, is teaching a doctrine that contradicts the Gospel they believe.

Jac3510 wrote:You said that if a person is worried about their salvation, that's a sign that they are really saved. But isn't that actualy proof that they don't believe the Gospel?

John 3:16 says WHOEVER BELIEVES has everlasting life. They read that, and they say, "Well, I've believed, BUT what about . . .?" They have doubts only because they don't believe Jesus. If a person believes Jesus, they have no doubts. That is what it means to believe Jesus. If He says, "You have life," and I say, "Well, I don't know about that," then you are saying He's wrong.

Jac, can you clarify here? Are you meaning doubts, worries, and in general concern over whether we are believing *enough* ("HAve I really believed?") Or are you meaning doubt or disbelief that Christ is the way or powerful enough to redeem us? Isn't oue faith, our belief corrupt and under sin just as every other part of our life? Can anyone perfectly believe? Such that at any one time, if we have doubts or worries, then you aren't really trusting God. For that matter, any worry should cause us to panic!!

Grace is a gift from God, but it is a hard gift to accept. The incredulity should never leave us.

Jac" wrote: Any teaching, then, that undermines complete and total assurance by telling us to look at our works in ANY WAY to confirm our salvation is a false gospel. It makes Jesus out to be a liar. It is either true that WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, or it is not. If it is, then all of our works or lack there of have absolutely no bearing on the issue whatsoever. If it is true, then a person can believe and love the world and sin every which way and still know that they are saved, AND be right about it. If it is not true, a person can believe and be good and keep all the commandments and be tormented as to whether or not they are saved and they may or may not be.


Bottom line: if a person's works are an indicator as to whether or not they are saved or unsaved, then John 3:16 is invalidated. Thus, any person who says that our works confirm our salvation (or deny it), at worst, does not believe the Gospel, and at best, is teaching a doctrine that contradicts the Gospel they believe.

DOn't have a problem here, but I would like to add in to previous comment by Bav about works. Works come after salvation with our relationship with Christ. They do not save, but Christ working through us and changing our hearts and minds should then provoke in us that growth and change. I would wonder at someone who does not show growth in CHrist, sanctification is that precious process with our relationship and He effects cahnges in us. But that very process is different in all of us.

But it is CHrist's work on the cross that redeems us, not in any way our works.

Jac, can you clarify here? Are you meaning doubts, worries, and in general concern over whether we are believing *enough* ("HAve I really believed?") Or are you meaning doubt or disbelief that Christ is the way or powerful enough to redeem us? Isn't oue faith, our belief corrupt and under sin just as every other part of our life? Can anyone perfectly believe? Such that at any one time, if we have doubts or worries, then you aren't really trusting God. For that matter, any worry should cause us to panic!!

You either believe something or you don't. If Jesus says that whoever believes has everlasting life, and you aren't really sure that He is telling the truth, then you don't BELIEVE Him. If you have doubts about whether or not you have believed, then you, again, don't believe, simply because you've got a bad theology. Or, put differently, you are believing a bad theology.

Do you have any doubts about whether or not you believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, or that there is a place called Washington, DC, or that God exists? You know whether or not you believe those things.

In the same way, jesus says that whoever believes has everlasting life. If you believe that He is telling the truth, then you know that you have everlasting life. If you doubt that you have everlasting life, then somewhere, somehow, you are adding a condition that you don't know that you've kept. Assurance is of the essence of saving faith. To doubt is to not understand the Gospel, and therefore, to not believe it.

Grace is a gift from God, but it is a hard gift to accept. The incredulity should never leave us.

I don't see how it is hard to accept. It may be hard to believe that it is by faith ALONE. We are so conditioned to think that we have to do SOMETHING. How many Christians have charged the Gospel with antinomianism or easy-believism. They say things like, "Well, you believe that a person can live like the devil and still go to heaven!" But what is the underlying premise there if not, those who live like the devil don't deserve heaven. But, who does? NO ONE!

It is hard to believe that it is by faith ALONE, regardless of how we live before or after salvation, but if you don't believe that, then you don't believe the Gospel. And if you do believe that, then you know, 100% for sure, that you are saved, because that is what is promised.

DOn't have a problem here, but I would like to add in to previous comment by Bav about works. Works come after salvation with our relationship with Christ. They do not save, but Christ working through us and changing our hearts and minds should then provoke in us that growth and change. I would wonder at someone who does not show growth in CHrist, sanctification is that precious process with our relationship and He effects cahnges in us. But that very process is different in all of us.

But it is CHrist's work on the cross that redeems us, not in any way our works.

I don't have a problem with the idea that we should want to do good works after our salvation. I have a problem with saying that we NECESSARILY WILL do good works after salvation, because if that is true, then you cannot know you are saved unless you do good works. But then, if you don't know you are saved, then you can't say you believe the Gospel. If Jesus says that whoever believes has everlasting life, and then someone asks if you you have everlasting life, and you say, "Well, I don't know. I haven't done enough good works to know whether or not I have really believed," then you don't believe Jesus' words.

Whoever believes has everlasting life. It's a bold claim, but it is the one we have to believe if we are to be saved.

Jac3510 wrote:

Jac, can you clarify here? Are you meaning doubts, worries, and in general concern over whether we are believing *enough* ("HAve I really believed?") Or are you meaning doubt or disbelief that Christ is the way or powerful enough to redeem us? Isn't oue faith, our belief corrupt and under sin just as every other part of our life? Can anyone perfectly believe? Such that at any one time, if we have doubts or worries, then you aren't really trusting God. For that matter, any worry should cause us to panic!!

You either believe something or you don't. If Jesus says that whoever believes has everlasting life, and you aren't really sure that He is telling the truth, then you don't BELIEVE Him. If you have doubts about whether or not you have believed, then you, again, don't believe, simply because you've got a bad theology. Or, put differently, you are believing a bad theology.

Do you have any doubts about whether or not you believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, or that there is a place called Washington, DC, or that God exists? You know whether or not you believe those things.

In the same way, jesus says that whoever believes has everlasting life. If you believe that He is telling the truth, then you know that you have everlasting life. If you doubt that you have everlasting life, then somewhere, somehow, you are adding a condition that you don't know that you've kept. Assurance is of the essence of saving faith. To doubt is to not understand the Gospel, and therefore, to not believe it.

In our sin, can we even perfectly believe? TO believe with confidence, no worry, no doubt? To use an analogy, if you say to someone "walk across that bridge" and they do so but with fear, have they not believed that the bridge works just by that simply process of committing that first step? Even in scripture we hear that prayer, "Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief"

Jac wrote:

Grace is a gift from God, but it is a hard gift to accept. The incredulity should never leave us.

I don't see how it is hard to accept.

When you realize how competely undeserving of God's grace?!?! You don't find it incredulous that Christ accepted the wrath for us? I think sometimes it is very easy to accept when we first start that relationship with CHrist and then when we are more aware of who He is and who we are it is hard to swallow

jac wrote: It may be hard to believe that it is by faith ALONE. We are so conditioned to think that we have to do SOMETHING. How many Christians have charged the Gospel with antinomianism or easy-believism. They say things like, "Well, you believe that a person can live like the devil and still go to heaven!" But what is the underlying premise there if not, those who live like the devil don't deserve heaven. But, who does? NO ONE!


It is hard to believe that it is by faith ALONE, regardless of how we live before or after salvation, but if you don't believe that, then you don't believe the Gospel. And if you do believe that, then you know, 100% for sure, that you are saved, because that is what is promised.

Ok completely agree, yes

DOn't have a problem here, but I would like to add in to previous comment by Bav about works. Works come after salvation with our relationship with Christ. They do not save, but Christ working through us and changing our hearts and minds should then provoke in us that growth and change. I would wonder at someone who does not show growth in CHrist, sanctification is that precious process with our relationship and He effects cahnges in us. But that very process is different in all of us.

But it is CHrist's work on the cross that redeems us, not in any way our works.

I don't have a problem with the idea that we should want to do good works after our salvation. I have a problem with saying that we NECESSARILY WILL do good works after salvation, because if that is true, then you cannot know you are saved unless you do good works.

Hmm....thinking on this. I agree with your *logic*. Scrfipture, though, would seem to support that "He who began a good work in you..."

I think we need to perhaps understand that the road during sanctification is not pretty and there would be times we it *Seems* that we aren't growing.

But then, if you don't know you are saved, then you can't say you believe the Gospel. If Jesus says that whoever believes has everlasting life, and then someone asks if you you have everlasting life, and you say, "Well, I don't know. I haven't done enough good works to know whether or not I have really believed," then you don't believe Jesus' words.

Oh, absolutely.....but I think this strikes at the bad theology at its foundation. I dnon't necessarily throw away examination of one's life because it might appear as if we are leaning on good works for our assurance.

Whoever believes has everlasting life. It's a bold claim, but it is the one we have to believe if we are to be saved.

no argument...Jesus saves

In our sin, can we even perfectly believe? TO believe with confidence, no worry, no doubt? To use an analogy, if you say to someone "walk across that bridge" and they do so but with fear, have they not believed that the bridge works just by that simply process of committing that first step? Even in scripture we hear that prayer, "Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief"

I don't find the phrase "perfectly believe" anywhere in Scripture. Do you? As a matter of fact, I don't find any modifiers for "faith" in Scripture. True faith, genuine faith, really believe, saving faith, false faith, psuedofaith . . . no such phrases are found in Scripture. The closest thing is the word "little faith," which doesn't concern how deeply one believes but rather to the extent to which one believes. For example, in the story of Jesus calming the storms, He says the disciples have "little faith." That doesn't mean that they had doubts that Jesus COULD do it. On the contrary, they were totally taken by surprise that the notion was even possible. Rather, Jesus was saying that they hadn't believed enough things about them. They had believed in Him for salvation, but they hadn't believed that He had authority over nature. They had little faith. They believed only a few things.

To believe, then, is to believe. If you have doubts, then you don't believe. In your example of the bridge, I would say that they do NOT believe that the bridge will hold them. They are willing to act for whatever their reason in spite of their unbelief, and we all can relate to that. We say, "Fine, I'll do it your way," even though we don't think it will pan out. And we may be surprised when it does. But if someone believes the bridge will hold them, there is no fear. They will be shocked if it doesn't! That's pretty easily applicable to the blind man's prayer. He believed enough things to recognize that there were things he didn't believe. There were issues he had not yet entrusted to God, but he was convinced that God could help him entrust even those to Him.

Faith and doubt can't co-exist in the same person with regard to the same thing in the same way at the same time. They are mutually exclusive. Just use the Gospel, again, as an example. If a person believes that Jesus told the truth, then they KNOW that they have everlasting life. If they don't KNOW that they have everlasting life, then they haven't believed the verse, either because it makes such an incredulous claim, or because they've not understood the claim in the first place.

Hmm....thinking on this. I agree with your *logic*. Scrfipture, though, would seem to support that "He who began a good work in you..."

I think we need to perhaps understand that the road during sanctification is not pretty and there would be times we it *Seems* that we aren't growing.

I don't see a single verse in Scripture that guarantees progressive sanctification. The oft-quoted "He who began" verse should be translated, "The One who began a good work BY you [plural, with reference to the church's work in supporting Paul] will continue to bring it to fruition up until the day of Christ Jesus."

First off, the verse can't be referring to salvation because God's work in our lives doesn't continue until the day of Christ. It continues, at best, until death. But beyond that, it can't refer to salvation because that good work will only continue UNTIL that Day. Won't God's salvation last for all of eternity? Third, it can't refer to salvation because the "you" is plural. Paul isn't talking to individual Christians. He is talking to the local church about their participation in Paul's ministry "from the first day". That's a reference to their financial support of Paul, allowing him to do the work of preaching the Gospel. Which means that, fourthly, this can't refer to salvation, because it isn't the work begun IN them, but BY them. The Greek word en certainly can be translated "in," but even then it has the connotation of "among," not "inside of [an individual]." But in this case, it should be considered an instrumental. Taken this way, and it fits perfectly with the context, Paul is saying that they supported his ministry from the very first day that they heard the Gospel, and they were continuing to do so (which fits with the occasion of the book, being a thank-you note for receiving a financial gift); because of this, Paul was able to preach the Gospel to others, and they, then, would participate in his reward for it. The work that God began by them was the spreading of the Gospel through Paul, and that work will continue to reap benefits until Jesus returns. We see that being fulfilled even today.

So, exegesis of that verse aside, I see absolutely no biblical evidence for the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints. Just the opposite, I see passages all over both the New and Old Testaments warning BELIEVERS against falling away. I see rewards for persevering. I see loss of rewards and shame for failure. I do not see loss of salvation for it. Further, it seems to me that the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints totally undermines any doctrine of assurance that we may have, a reality played out in the lives of the English Puritans, whose divines, to a man, questioned their own salvations on their deathbeds. How could they not? For how can you know when you have done enough?

Perseverance, as a doctrine, forces me to look at my works to decide if I'm saved. When I find that won't justify me (and it won't), I'm forced to either question my salvation or throw my hands up and claim ignorance. In either case, I'm denying the Gospel, because when someone says, "Are you going to heaven?" the best you can say is, "I hope so." But "I hope so" is not a statement of faith. Such an answer cannot affirm the truthfulness of John 3:16. No one who only "hopes" (in the English sense of the word) that they are saved can say that they believe Jesus. Salvation isn't a hope-so, it's a know-so, and if a person doesn't KNOW that they are saved based on the objective promise of Jesus Christ Himself, then they don't believe the objective promise of Jesus Christ Himself.

So says I, anyway

Jac3510 wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:I'm not sure why you are getting sarcastic. Have I been?

Accusing me of not believing Christ's words? What would you call that?

Sincere. If you don't believe John 3:16, you don't believe Christ's words. I wasn't being sarcastic. Just honest.

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? You have done this since I started in this thread. I never set out to disprove John 3:16...I simply came to say that OSAS is not true in the context that salvation is of free will and free will is not removed when one believes in Christ...I've given you other texts and words of Christ to prove that one can still fall away when in Christ...but you tell me to go look elsewhere for your explanation. There is no other explanation...it is a culmination of God's word put TOGETHER to form truth. While it is true that whomever believes has everlasting life, is not the end of the story...if it was, that would be all the scripture needed. But I think you know as well as I do, that there is more. A Christian must live the truth...as the scripture says a few verses past John 3:16. Is this other verse a lie?

I put forward John 3:16 as a clear presentation of the Gospel. You presented OTHER VERSES to refute John 3:16. If you want to talk about how we should understand 3:16 in its context, we will. But I'm not going to let you try to disprove the verse with other verses. If you do, I'll just state the obvious. You don't believe that verse on the basis of other verses.

You say that it is true that whoever believes has everlasting life, but then you say that it is ALSO true that a person can lose his salvation. Those ideas are contradictories. BOTH cannot be true. You can't put them "TOGETHER to form truth." That would be like me saying, "It is true that the shape is a circle, but it is ALSO true that the shape is a square. It is a culmination of ideas we put TOGETHER to form truth."

You'd charge me, rightly, with being irrational.

Now, you either affirm that a person has EVERLASTING LIFE, which, by definition, cannot be lost (else it is no longer everlasting), or you deny that a person has EVERLASTING LIFE. John 3:16 affirms it. You don't. That means you don't believe John 3:16. That means you don't believe the Gospel.

I do believe it, however if we are to believe it as you SUPPOSEDLY do, then Satan is also saved as he is also included in the "whoever"...no where does John 3:16 exclude angels and/or Satan himself. If it does, show me where it plainly states "whoever, except angels and Satan."

Ho pisteuwn ("the believing one") refers to human beings. Consider this example:

You just started a new job, and you are in your orientation. The instructor says, "Now, anyone who is caught on the cell phone during store hours will have their phones confiscated."

The next day, you see a customer with a cell phone, and you report it to your boss, expecting it to be taken from them. Will it be? Of course not. "Anyone" in context of the speech referred to all employees. In the same way, "Anyone who believes" refers to human beings, for what does the verse say:

"For in this way, God loved the world: He gave His Only Son, that everyone who believes in Him will never perish, but will instead have everlasting life." (My translation). Does "the world" include angels/demons? No, nor does it refer to cats, rocks, monkeys, or trees. As the context of John 3 makes clear, Jesus is referring to humanity (which, for the record, is an acceptable translation of kosmos. See the TDNT III:889: "kosmos = World as Humanity, Fallen Creation, the Theatre of Salvation History").

Thus, according to John 3:16, salvation is only available to that part of humanity (kosmos) that believes (ho pisteuwn), and then, it is granted to every (pas) believer without exception. What is granted is eternal life, life that will NEVER be lost, and therefore, the person themselves will NEVER perish.

This is so laughable!! You're accusing me of saying Jesus is wrong when I'm giving you other words of Christ to clarify the truth? John 3:16 is not wrong, Christ's words are not wrong. It is whoever believes that has everlasting life, however just a few words later CHRIST SAYS THAT ONE MUST LIVE THE TRUTH...explain how one lives the truth and you have your answer on whether OSAS is correct as promoted by apparently you and lots of others.

There is nothing laughable about a person denying the Gospel, Bav. Regardless, the text does NOT say that a person must LIVE the truth. Allow me to quote it for you:

"But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light"

Notice it says that IF you live by the truth, THEN you come to the light (believe). It does not say that once you believe, you must then LIVE by the truth. So your claim is simply false.

I believe it...the question remains whether you believe EVERYTHING Christ says or just the things you like He says...?

Of course I do, but nothing Jesus says will INVALIDATE what He said in John 3:16. If you want to have a separate discussion on other things Jesus said, feel free to start another thread. We can talk about them all day long if you like. But NOTHING He says will disprove John 3:16, unless, of course, Jesus was wrong in 3:16 (or wrong somewhere else).

The charge is serious, Bav.

1. The Gospel is that every single person who believes has everlasting life.
2. A person who has everlasting life can never die.
3. Therefore, a person who believes can never die.
4. If a person died after being saved, they would have lost their salvation.
5. Therefore, a person cannot lose their salvation.

Thus,

1. The Gospel is that a person cannot lose their salvation;
2. Bav believes that a person can lose their salvation;
3. Therefore, Bav does not believe the Gospel.

Forgive me for being so blunt, Bav. This is not a laughing matter. Paul certainly didn't approve of those who preached another Gospel . . . of all issues we should be able to be candid about, this one should top the list.

edit:

MS,

You are exactly right in your post. It IS contradictory to say that all we have to do is believe and THEN go on and say all the things that we have to do/not do in order to say we "really believed." The latter IS a works-based-salvation, and it is pure heresy. The person who denies that ALL you have to do be saved is believe denies the Gospel and calls Jesus a liar.

The Gospel is that salvation is by faith alone, and that is the ONLY Gospel. Any "gospel" that denies that will land a person in Hell just as fast as any other false religion will.

If we ONLY had John 3:16, then I'd agree with you, but since we have a few more items of reading available and agreed upon by Christianity as "God's Word"...then I'll take the whole of it...and not one verse.

Sorry to be so blunt, Jac, but one cannot/will not live the truth without having FIRST believed it. So which comes first?
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So you, like the Pharisees of old, don't believe the Gospel because you've misunderstood other verses in Scripture (just as they did). You belive they contradict the clear teaching of John 3:16, and therefore reject it. That's between you and God, my friend, but I encourage you to reconsider. The consequences of disbelief are rather severe.

God bless

Jac3510 wrote:So you, like the Pharisees of old, don't believe the Gospel because you've misunderstood other verses in Scripture (just as they did). You belive they contradict the clear teaching of John 3:16, and therefore reject it. That's between you and God, my friend, but I encourage you to reconsider. The consequences of disbelief are rather severe.

God bless

It's useless to discuss with you, all you do is insert words and thoughts into my mouth that you wish I believed. I told you, I believe John 3:16...just that it's not the ONLY verse in the scripture that explains the Gospel...at least not to one so apparently aquainted with the rest of it.

Not like the pharisees...only using Christ's words...but you ignore that...it's convenient for you.
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Jac3510 wrote:You said that if a person is worried about their salvation, that's a sign that they are really saved. But isn't that actually proof that they don't believe the Gospel?...

Christians' do have and can have full assurance in Christ that they are indeed saved. Sometimes this takes time to for some people realize this as the Lord may have to teach them something so they'll learn to realize they are saved. I'll let the Lord work on the person as he so wills. If it takes time to remove a person's doubts and fears of being saved or not, or lose that works mentality — so be it. God is God and who am I to stand in his way and declare he cannot do this? I hope you are not saying this.

Also, I do not think you are saying that mental credence alone saves. You appear to understand that believing in Christ changes / transforms a person. Therefore, how can you deny evidences of such transformation in a person life as well as limit God's work within a person's soul how ever so God wills? Sometimes, the Jacob method (wrestling with God) is best for one person to find rest and for another the Abraham method (just believe) works best?

The Lord does know that we all need changing and helps us to change in many diverse ways one on one. Maybe a person needs assurance they are doing the right thing and are on the right course? Let God be God in a person's life.

Jac3510 wrote:....Any teaching, then, that undermines complete and total assurance by telling us to look at our works in ANY WAY to confirm our salvation is a false gospel. It makes Jesus out to be a liar. It is either true that WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, or it is not. If it is, then all of our works or lack there of have absolutely no bearing on the issue whatsoever. If it is true, then a person can believe and love the world and sin every which way and still know that they are saved, AND be right about it. If it is not true, a person can believe and be good and keep all the commandments and be tormented as to whether or not they are saved and they may or may not be.

Bottom line: if a person's works are an indicator as to whether or not they are saved or unsaved, then John 3:16 is invalidated. Thus, any person who says that our works confirm our salvation (or deny it), at worst, does not believe the Gospel, and at best, is teaching a doctrine that contradicts the Gospel they believe.

Next, Mounce's Bible Dictionary does a great job tracing the etymology of the Hebrew and Greek words translated believe and faith in our English bibles. What I am discovering is that it appears, Jac, you are interpreting the word 'believe' according to one limited definition. The Greek words translated both for Believe and Faith are from the same word groups. Simply put, one is verb from and the other a noun form.

The Hebrew word used to translate faith and believe has the meaning of action. Your belief / faith produce something. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Abraham's actions did not make him right before God. He made many mistakes but there was action. He believed and bore fruit of this belief.

Someone who is born again believes, as you so stated, but they also have growth that bears fruit that they are saved. This growth comes in a wide array of ways; conviction, lessons learned, learning to love as God does and demonstrating it, lesson of increasing trust in God, putting off the old man - putting on the new, etc and etc.

It appears to me that what you are saying is that growth is not necessary, only simple belief. The bible does not teach this. Paul does not teach this, nor did Jesus. You will know a tree by its fruit Jesus said. Paul mentions putting off the old man - putting on the new man, growing in grace, loving one another. James stated that faith (belief) without works is dead.

I do not think anyone here is saying that good works saves you or keeps you saved. Rather what I am hearing is that when one believes what follows initial belief 'comes' a change in a person. There is fruit to ones faith so if a person is 'truly' saved there will be bonafide empirical evidence for this.

This change is not works based. It is natural or better put, the Lord fashioning you into his workmanship for his works. It appears to me that you are confusing this as works that keep you saved. These are not. The reason why many people use terms such as 'perfectly' believe, 'truly' believe, etc, is to qualify the meaning of the word 'believe' putting it in the proper biblical sense faith/believe is used.

As I understand what you are conveying is this:

Abraham believed the Lord, and God counted it to him as righteousness; therefore, Abraham hypothetically could have stayed in his home town and never went to the Promised Land. He believed and only that was important - nothing else! Anything else is considered works and is anathema to belief. Abraham could have stayed where he was at simply because he believed the Lord, and God counted it to him as righteousness.

Question: if that were the case, then, did Abraham really believe?

Are you telling people to simply believe and not necessary to put off the old man? That what Paul wrote in Romans 13:11-14 is not applicable: “Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.” ESV

I have met many people who call themselves Christians because they simply believe; however, I would never trust them due to their constant bad character and infamous behavior. A tree is known by its fruit. Do they believe yes! Is there fruit to their belief — No!

There is more to believing than simply acknowledging something as true, or a feeling it is true, or simple mental credence, or fully convinced. It is also living what you believe.

Titus 3:8-9, “The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Titus 1:1, “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began “

Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

No one here, as far as I can tell as of this date, is teaching that good works save you. They are saying to believe in Christ, just as you state, but also understand that one also lives by what they believe.
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