Evidence for God from Science

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

jenna wrote:It's only your opinion that we are wrong.

No. You are wrong, and most definately so. If you are so wrong in this most fundamental of biblical information, your whole understanding of God's word must be flawed.

Read Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.

Your contention is that the tribe of Judah only are Jews. Am I correct? When you answer this, please give biblical evidence to support what you say.

No, you have completely missed the point of all this. The Jews are only one tribe. All the rest, including the Jews, are God's chosen people. Not only the Jews. I don't know why you choose to misunderstand what I have said. All Israelites, not only the Jews, were God's chosen people.

If you want me to show you from the Bible that all of Jacob's sons are Israelites and that all Israelites are Jews, you must answer some questions:

jenna wrote: The Jews are only one tribe.

Which tribe?

jenna wrote: All the rest, including the Jews, are God's chosen people.

Can you name these people/tribes?

jenna wrote: Not only the Jews [are God's Chosen People.]

Give biblical evidence to support this notion.

jenna wrote:I don't know why you choose to misunderstand what I have said.

I think I understand you quite well: (very briefly,) I think you believe that the tribe of Judah became the Jews of today and that the other tribes were scattered throughout the then-known world. Certain tribes went to Europe...Dan left their mark here & there: Danube, Danzig, Danmark (Danish spelling for Denmark)...and such. The tribes of Ephraim & Mannaseh became the British Commonwealth (only the Anglo-Saxons in the B.C.) and Manasseh became the USA. Other tribes went to Africa, still others went east into Asia.

jenna wrote: All Israelites, not only the Jews, were God's chosen people.

Give biblical evidence to support this notion.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Read Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.

Yes, it is a well established biblical fact of the twelve patriarch'.

Also, I remember the so-called lost tribe returning from Ethiopia to the homeland in '91 or thereabout

There is another thing I have wondered about; Why is the tribe of Dan omitted from the book of Revelations?
FL I bet you know the answer to this.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:If you want me to show you from the Bible that all of Jacob's sons are Israelites and that all Israelites are Jews, you must answer some questions:

jenna wrote: The Jews are only one tribe.

Which tribe?

jenna wrote: All the rest, including the Jews, are God's chosen people.

Can you name these people/tribes?

jenna wrote: Not only the Jews [are God's Chosen People.]

Give biblical evidence to support this notion.

jenna wrote:I don't know why you choose to misunderstand what I have said.

I think I understand you quite well: (very briefly,) I think you believe that the tribe of Judah became the Jews of today and that the other tribes were scattered throughout the then-known world. Certain tribes went to Europe...Dan left their mark here & there: Danube, Danzig, Danmark (Danish spelling for Denmark)...and such. The tribes of Ephraim & Mannaseh became the British Commonwealth (only the Anglo-Saxons in the B.C.) and Manasseh became the USA. Other tribes went to Africa, still others went east into Asia.

jenna wrote: All Israelites, not only the Jews, were God's chosen people.

Give biblical evidence to support this notion.

Simple. All Israelites came from Abraham. God blessed him and all his descendants.

jenna wrote:Simple. All Israelites came from Abraham. God blessed him and all his descendants.

We both agree on this. You still have not given any biblical evidence to support your idea that the Jews were not the only Chosen People, and from which tribe the Jews came from, and that the Israelites are not all Jews.

I can't wait to read your answers. Don't forget the biblical references so that I can check all this out.

Cross.eyed wrote:There is another thing I have wondered about; Why is the tribe of Dan omitted from the book of Revelalation. FL I bet you know the answer to this.

Nope...I didn't know the answer off hand...but I'll share my limited knowledge on this with you in my next post. Thanks for the question!

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

jenna wrote:Simple. All Israelites came from Abraham. God blessed him and all his descendants.

We both agree on this. You still have not given any biblical evidence to support your idea that the Jews were not the only Chosen People, and from which tribe the Jews came from, and that the Israelites are not all Jews.

I can't wait to read your answers. Don't forget the biblical references so that I can check all this out.

Cross.eyed wrote:There is another thing I have wondered about; Why is the tribe of Dan omitted from the book of Revelalation. FL I bet you know the answer to this.

Nope...I didn't know the answer off hand...but I'll share my limited knowledge on this with you in my next post. Thanks for the question!

If we agree on this, then why do you need biblical evidence for something you agree with? Also, this is what I've been saying all along. At first you said I was wrong, now you agree? As for evidence that the Israelites are not all Jews, I will get back to that with your biblical evidence. But for an analogy, I am an American. I live in Alabama. While all Alabamians are Americans, not all Americans are Alabamians. Some are Californians, Floridians, or Texans. The same can be said for the Jews. While all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews. Some are Reubenites, Benjaminites, Gadites, Levites, etc. But regardless who they are, they are still descendants of Abraham, and so they are God's chosen ones.

not all Israelites are Jews. -Jenna

This is false. This is what I want you to explain with biblical evidence.

jenna wrote:not all Israelites are Jews. Some are Reubenites, Benjaminites, Gadites, Levites, etc.

This is also false. Explain how you arrive at this conclusion.

jenna wrote: regardless who they are, they are still descendants of Abraham, and so they are God's chosen ones.

Choses ones? No...it is Chosen People we are talking about. The difference is subtle yet very important.

(note to cross.eyed: I haven't forgotten your question.)

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:not all Israelites are Jews. -Jenna

This is false. This is what I want you to explain with biblical evidence.

jenna wrote:not all Israelites are Jews. Some are Reubenites, Benjaminites, Gadites, Levites, etc.

This is also false. Explain how you arrive at this conclusion.

jenna wrote: regardless who they are, they are still descendants of Abraham, and so they are God's chosen ones.

Choses ones? No...it is Chosen People we are talking about. The difference is subtle yet very important.

(note to cross.eyed: I haven't forgotten your question.)

I am still going to come up with biblical evidence, when I get enough time. In the meantime, since in your opinion only, this is false, find me biblical evidence that proves me wrong. And explain to me the difference between chosen ones and chosen people.

He already HAS provided the evidence, Jenna. All tribes descended from JAcob and his twelve sons.

FL wrote:Read Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.

zoegirl wrote:He already HAS provided the evidence, Jenna. All tribes descended from JAcob and his twelve sons.

FL wrote:Read Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.

Not disagreeing with this. What I am asking for is evidence that only the Jews are God's chosen ones (or people, however you want to put it). I am also asking how he can say that all Israelites are Jews. He HAS NOT given evidence for this.

jenna wrote:What I am asking for is evidence that only the Jews are God's chosen ones (or people, however you want to put it).

Chosen People, as in a Nation. See Isaiah 41 for evidence of God's love for Israel the nation, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. You, Jenna, if you are born again, are chosen by God; but you are not an Israelite. You are not part of God's Chosen People. You may be a «wannabe» Israelite and adopt a theology that says you are an Israelite (like the WWCG) or says you are Jewish (the Rastafaris) or says you are more-Jewish than Jews (the Raí«lians)... but you remain only a Gentile believer saved by grace, period.

jenna wrote: I am also asking how he can say that all Israelites are Jews. He HAS NOT given evidence for this.

That answer is in the Bible. When you answer my questions about your heretical views, I will take your answers apart piece by piece and expose your error with evidence from the Bible that you can look up...but will you see?

(note to cross.eyed: I haven't forgotten you...but your question is more complex than I thought so I'm doing a lot of study...)

FL, you are constantly saying my posts are false, which is the same as calling me a liar. You also claim my views are heretical. This is nonsense, and your attitude is entirely uncalled for. You say your proof is in the bible, yet you have not provided anything, scripture or otherwise, to support your claim. You have asked me for proof of MY claim, and here it is.
All Israelites are not Jews. The tribes of Ephraim and Manessah (Joseph), Reuben, Simeon, Gad, Asher, Zebulon, Dan, Naphtali, and Issachar were never Jews. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi were considered Jews. Following the split of the original kingdom of Israel, Judah and Israel became two separate nations, and never reunited. The first time the "Jews" are mentioned in the bible, they are at war with Israel. (2Kings 16:1-6) This was not Jews fighting Jews. This was Israelites fighting Jews. The nation of Israel had become divided by this point, into two separate nations, with two separate kingdoms. The kingdom of Israel, with capital Samaria, and the kingdom of Judah, with capital Jerusalem. You say you will pick apart my answer, let's see.

Cross.eyed wrote: Why is the tribe of Dan omitted from the book of Revelations?

Genesis 49:17

Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horses's heels so that its rider tumbles backward.

I think the key to the answer to your question can be found here, in verse 17, of the dying Jacob's prophecy to his son Dan. (The whole prophecy runs from Ge 49:16-18.)

- Throughout Scripture, the snake/serpent/viper/adder is a symbol Satan, of evil influences (see Ps 58:4, 91:13, 140:3, Mt 12:34, 23:33, Re 12:9, among others.) The tribe of Dan originally had its tribal allotment of land in central Canaan, bordering on Philistine territory. Judges 13-16 describes constant fighting between the two groups, and notes the problems with intermarriage, a practice forbidden by God.

Idolatry - perhaps aided by intermarriage - was to plague the tribe of Dan thoughout its history. Read the pathetic account of Dan's travels to conquer a different tribal homeland in Judges 18. They found an incompetent priest who had an idol stolen from his employer; they hired this guy and he accompanied them to conquor the town of Laish. They re-named Laish Dan and set up the idol to be worshipped. This pathetic rejection of the God of Israel continued for a long time and Dan-the-city became a center for pagan worship.

When the Northeren Kingdom separated from Judah (200+ years after Dan's takeover of Laish,) King Jeroboam feared the population would continue to go to Jerusalem to worship, so he promoted idolatry and had 2 golden calves made, one of them was at Dan (read 1 Kings 12.)

Fast forward another 200 years (400+ years after the Danites took Laish) and you see that idolatry is alive and well, with Dan as its center (see 2 Kings 10.)

To be continued later.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

jenna wrote:It's only your opinion that we are wrong.

No. You are wrong, and most definately so. If you are so wrong in this most fundamental of biblical information, your whole understanding of God's word must be flawed.

Read Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.

Your contention is that the tribe of Judah only are Jews. Am I correct? When you answer this, please give biblical evidence to support what you say.

Jenna,

It appears to me that most of what you are saying mirrors H. W. Armstrong views on the 12 tribes of Israel. Ture bible study leads a person to think for her or himself. Please consider what you are saying, is it from someone else?

Fürstentum Liechtenstein makes a good point -

Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.
Your contention is that the tribe of Judah only are Jews. Am I correct? When you answer this, please give biblical evidence to support what you say.

Does your manner of bible study cause you to run to a leader, like Armstrong, or to Christ Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit for the answer?
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B. W. wrote:

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

jenna wrote:It's only your opinion that we are wrong.

No. You are wrong, and most definately so. If you are so wrong in this most fundamental of biblical information, your whole understanding of God's word must be flawed.

Read Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.

Your contention is that the tribe of Judah only are Jews. Am I correct? When you answer this, please give biblical evidence to support what you say.

Jenna,

It appears to me that most of what you are saying mirrors H. W. Armstrong views on the 12 tribes of Israel. Ture bible study leads a person to think for her or himself. Please consider what you are saying, is it from someone else?

Fürstentum Liechtenstein makes a good point -

Genesis 49. Jacob gives his deathbed prophecies to his sons. Each of these sons is the patriarch of an Israelite tribe: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (from whom Ephraim & Manasseh issue), Benjamin.
Your contention is that the tribe of Judah only are Jews. Am I correct? When you answer this, please give biblical evidence to support what you say.

Does your manner of bible study cause you to run to a leader, like Armstrong, or to Christ Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit for the answer?
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Appearances can be deceiving, B.W. I would prefer to get a reply from FL himself. And in case you hadn't noticed, Armstrong is dead. How could I run to him, since all his work was destroyed after his death? I was asked to provide biblical support, and I have. Now if he wants to refute me, it should be him that does it.