Evidence for God from Science

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Unfortunately an otherwise perfect being can commit a sin the size of a mustard seed and without Christ is still lost and "evil" in the eyes of God.
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mkay, I'll contribute what I think.

My belief is that our sinful nature makes us flawed and imperfect rather than "evil". Commiting a sin even once, no matter how good natured you are otherwise, doesn't really make you evil or an abomination of anykind, but it does still make you flawed. It's pretty clear that the God portrayed in the Bible (stuff always comes back to scripture because its the core of Christianity btw. It's basically impossible to reject the Bible and still be considered a "Christian") does not accept imperfection, and especially doesn't sit back and say "well they're only human". In fact, He is actually trying to save us from our own flawed "human" nature, not tell us to put up with it. God has an absolute right and wrong and it's impossible for people to follow him properly if they don't conform to it. We're expected to warn people if what theyre doing is something that will hurt their connection with God, though yes your right, we should make sure were not guilty of the same thing first. God doesn't instruct us to approve of everything people do, though its stupid to form an opinion of a person entirely on something they did (or maybe still do).

I think, just as we are positionally righteous in God's eyes when we accept Christ and yet we realize that we still have a sin nature that is being sanctified, we need to realize that positionally in God's eyes before accepting Christ, there is no grading on the curve. We're either "hot" or "cold", dead or alive. There is common grace and non-Christians can be very nice and do good things, but the issue is we're either alive in Christ or still dead in our sins.

There are both practical and positional elements to the concept and they are at times seemingly contradictory depending upon the perspective we're looking at it from.

Yep, and just because we're depraved doesn't mean that we don't do good things, but that these good things are not perfecvtly done. Our thoughts, our emotions, our deeds are not done without selfish motives.

BavarianWheels wrote: I agree with you, however I'd like some clarity on something. Are you saying the letter of the law is irrelevant to keep? Is there not a manner in which to endeavor to keep God's law or is it always "irrelevant" being that we are not saved by the law?
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It IS irrelevant to our justification. But it is RELEVANT to our sanctification.
The law is only there to identify our sin. (Like a speed limit sign is there to show us our limits)
But we should endeavor to keep the civil and moral laws (The ceremonial laws are nailed to the cross) I think endeavoring to keep the civil and moral laws(loving our neighbor) are benificial to us in this life as well as contributing towards the rewards we will receive in heaven. But the rewards that we may receive are only indirectly a result of our obedience. Our obedience to God is our witness to Christ. It is our witness to Christ, to those we share the Gospel with, whether by word or by deed, that will determine rewards. In other words when we are obedient we are a better witness, and therefore more rewards. But no matter how obedient we are, if a person does not hear the Gospel message they cannot get saved. So it is good to be obedient to God as well as know how to verbally share the message that Christ intended for us to share.

YLTYLT wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote: I agree with you, however I'd like some clarity on something. Are you saying the letter of the law is irrelevant to keep? Is there not a manner in which to endeavor to keep God's law or is it always "irrelevant" being that we are not saved by the law?
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It IS irrelevant to our justification. But it is RELEVANT to our sanctification.
The law is only there to identify our sin. (Like a speed limit sign is there to show us our limits)
But we should endeavor to keep the civil and moral laws (The ceremonial laws are nailed to the cross) I think endeavoring to keep the civil and moral laws(loving our neighbor) are benificial to us in this life as well as contributing towards the rewards we will receive in heaven. But the rewards that we may receive are only indirectly a result of our obedience. Our obedience to God is our witness to Christ. It is our witness to Christ, to those we share the Gospel with, whether by word or by deed, that will determine rewards. In other words when we are obedient we are a better witness, and therefore more rewards. But no matter how obedient we are, if a person does not hear the Gospel message they cannot get saved. So it is good to be obedient to God as well as know how to verbally share the message that Christ intended for us to share.

I can accept that. Thx.
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Hey guys back after exams and a bit of a holiday....

Wow looks like ive generated some discussion which is great but Ihave one more question..

IF God created us human, why must we deny our humanity?? i just cannot see how people can be inherently evil.Yes we may do evil but does that make every single one of us worthless?? young, old, good, bad, loyal, respectful, religious, atheist I just dont see why we should damn humanity just because we have the temerity to not be 'holy'

IF God created us human, why must we deny our humanity?? i just cannot see how people can be inherently evil.Yes we may do evil but does that make every single one of us worthless?? young, old, good, bad, loyal, respectful, religious, atheist I just dont see why we should damn humanity just because we have the temerity to not be 'holy'[/quote[

Ok, let's run with that thought. We had the temerity to not be holy. HOliness cannot be with unholiness. We rebelled. We essentially declared war on righteousness. "Even our righteousness is as filthy rags"

We wanted to be separate from HIm, so why are you surprised when that has occured? The Holy and Righteous Omnipotent being has declared the sentence that we ourselves wanted.

AS for being worth it, consider the words of C.S.Lewis

[quote="""'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth.'"

--Prince Caspian

"Christ died for men precisely because men are not worth dying for; to make them worth it."

--The World's Last Night

Is it not beautiful to think on the fact that this very same Creator died for those who rebelled against Him?

zoegirl wrote:

AS for being worth it, consider the words of C.S.Lewis

[quote="""'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth.'"

--Prince Caspian

What is with Christians and C.S Lewis quotes?? Just about every member of a Chrisitian denomination, especially born again ones that i have debated the meaning of Christianity with has quoted him at least once. And then scoff when I use Frank Herbert to explain my argument (Im a massive Herbert fan if you haven't guessed already from the signature)

Imperium wrote:

zoegirl wrote:

AS for being worth it, consider the words of C.S.Lewis

[quote="""'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth.'"

--Prince Caspian

What is with Christians and C.S Lewis quotes?? Just about every member of a Chrisitian denomination, especially born again ones that i have debated the meaning of Christianity with has quoted him at least once. And then scoff when I use Frank Herbert to explain my argument (Im a massive Herbert fan if you haven't guessed already from the signature)

Do you mean the Si-Fi writer, Frank Herbert?

I have not read any of his works but watch the movie series 'Dune' back in the 1980's...
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B. W. wrote:

Imperium wrote:

zoegirl wrote:

AS for being worth it, consider the words of C.S.Lewis

[quote="""'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth.'"

--Prince Caspian

What is with Christians and C.S Lewis quotes?? Just about every member of a Chrisitian denomination, especially born again ones that i have debated the meaning of Christianity with has quoted him at least once. And then scoff when I use Frank Herbert to explain my argument (Im a massive Herbert fan if you haven't guessed already from the signature)

Do you mean the Si-Fi writer, Frank Herbert?

I have not read any of his works but watch the movie series 'Dune' back in the 1980's...
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The one and only... and the series wasnt that great because it didnt capture much, if any of the greatness of the book.But apparently theres going to be another movie version in 2010 sometime.Frank Herbert was great not only because his books were explorations of philosposy, politics and religion as well as awesome novels, but also because he was an ardent student of human nature just like Zoegirl's beloved C.S Lewis.What he says makes sense

Imperium wrote:Hey guys back after exams and a bit of a holiday....

Wow looks like ive generated some discussion which is great but Ihave one more question..

IF God created us human, why must we deny our humanity?? i just cannot see how people can be inherently evil. Yes we may do evil but does that make every single one of us worthless?? young, old, good, bad, loyal, respectful, religious, atheist I just dont see why we should damn humanity just because we have the temerity to not be 'holy'

Charles Finney had an interesting way to define 'total depravity.' I'll paraphrase his meaning as 'an absolute propensity to twist / warp away from any good we do.' We all have this ability. No matter how good we are, we'll end up nullifying by doing something stupid.

If everyone was allowed in heaven on their own terms — who is bowing too whom? Who becomes god? If everyone is allowed into heaven — then we would screw it up. That is why the Lord God Almighty has his own terms. We can either accept his terms or reject them. That is pretty fair and displays a notion of love not noticed by many.

The real sin is pride —the kind of pride that demands that God must bow to man and his terms. This is subtle and takes many noble sounding forms but the end results consist of human beings exercising dominion over God. Please think on this a bit more. How Jesus was treated after he was arrested, when he was tried, and during the cross exposes this sort of pride very well. The resurrection exposes God's love offering a choice — freedom of 'new life' verses slavery of this (type of) pride that leads towards 'corruption.'

Question for the reader too ponder: Who would you want in heaven? Those that lead to corruption? Or those changed willingly?
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Imperium wrote:...The one and only... and the series wasnt that great because it didnt capture much, if any of the greatness of the book.But apparently theres going to be another movie version in 2010 sometime.Frank Herbert was great not only because his books were explorations of philosposy, politics and religion as well as awesome novels, but also because he was an ardent student of human nature just like Zoegirl's beloved C.S Lewis.What he says makes sense

Yea, I did not like the movie series 'Dune' either. I'll have to look into reading one of his books — any recommendations?
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B. W. wrote:

Imperium wrote:...The one and only... and the series wasnt that great because it didnt capture much, if any of the greatness of the book.But apparently theres going to be another movie version in 2010 sometime.Frank Herbert was great not only because his books were explorations of philosposy, politics and religion as well as awesome novels, but also because he was an ardent student of human nature just like Zoegirl's beloved C.S Lewis.What he says makes sense

Yea, I did not like the movie series 'Dune' either. I'll have to look into reading one of his books — any recommendations?
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Probably reading the novel 'Dune' and its sequels would be a good start.Also, the Green Brain is another good one.

Imperium wrote:...Probably reading the novel 'Dune' and its sequels would be a good start.Also, the Green Brain is another good one.

Thanks!

I'll look into these
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