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Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:31 am
by zoegirl
All right,. I did a little bit of my own reserach and found something interesting. YOu won't like it. The problem with challenging someone to do their own researach (and someone stubborn enough to do so :ebiggrin: ) They will.

(It is common research practices to support one's claims. I don't understand why you resist.) This is just basic debate. I have provide NUMEROUS weblinks, you have provided....oh wait....NONE. Interesting enough, I only seem to run into this "hit and run" philosophy of debating with YEC. I'm sorry.

THis is from a website http://www.allianceforscience.org/Lucy/ ... ticle.html
In May 2007, I attended a “Creation Forum” at a large evangelical church in my neighborhood. The speaker, a physics professor at a university in Maryland, gave a talk entitled “Icons of Evolution.” An important theme of the talk was the extent to which the work of scientists is allegedly influenced by naturalistic assumptions. The speaker expressed the opinion that evolutionary scientists and creationists each have assumed worldviews that exert strong influences on the answers they obtain to origin-related inquiries. (This argument, if accepted, would serve to put mainstream science and creationism on equal footings.)

During the question-and-answer session after the talk, it was asked how alleged human ancestors like “Lucy” fit into this framework. The speaker said he had seen a video in which a scientist (perhaps the discoverer of “Lucy”) “allowed himself to be filmed” using a rotary saw to modify the pelvis or femur of the fossil to make them fit together in a manner consistent with a bipedal posture. Although one attendee expressed surprise that the original fossil bones would be tampered with in this manner, the general sense in the room seemed to be that this was not too surprising, because scientific work is not really objective. These people had no trouble believing that, since the scientists assumed that “Lucy” was a human ancestor, they felt justified in modifying the evidence to conform to what they knew the answer “had to be.” As the speaker later wrote to me, “The assumption of naturalism and belief in the evolutionary model is the lens through which all evidence is examined and interpreted.”

My experience has given me a different perspective. Although scientists are human beings, I have found that they generally exercise high standards of intellectual integrity and professional ethics (with, of course, some lamentable exceptions). “Cooking evidence” is unacceptable, and forging evidence is career suicide. The self-correcting nature of scientific culture weeds out arguments based on faulty reasoning or evidence. I also found it inconceivable that the original “Lucy” fossils would be mutilated in the manner described. It was clear that this creationist physics professor had seen something and honestly believed what he was saying, but I was sure there was more to the story.

Eventually, I learned that this claim -- which turns out to be common among creationsts -- originated with a 1994 episode of the PBS Nova series, entitled “In Search of Human Origins.” The creationist speaker explained, “The clip shows Dr. [C. Owen] Lovejoy, an anthropologist from Kent State, using some kind of a power rotary saw … to alter a plaster cast of the Lucy pelvis (not the original fossil). Dr. Lovejoy claims that altering the pelvis actually returns it to its original condition and causes Lucy to fit into her proper place in the evolutionary chain of descent from ape-like ancestor to modern man.”

With this information, I was ready to get more information about the “Lucy” reconstruction process.

First, some background. “Lucy” is the popular name (derived from the Beatles song “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds”) given to an unusually complete (40%) fossil of Australopithecus afarensis. It was discovered by Dr. Donald Johanson in 1974 in the Afar Depression in Ethiopia (the scientific designation for this fossil is A.L.-288-1). The fossil site yielded part of a thighbone, vertebrae, the sacrum and left side of the innomate pelvis bone, ribs, and pieces of jaw (for identification of the pelvic structures mentioned in this report, see Figure 1 at right).The fossils were dated by several independent radiometric techniques to the Pliocene Period, about 3.2 million years ago. Other notable A. afarensis fossils discovered in subsequent years include the “first family” (remains of 13 adult specimens discovered together near the “Lucy” site) and “baby Lucy” (the skeleton of a 3-year-old female comprising almost the entire skull and torso, and most parts of the limbs).

“Lucy” stood about 3.5 feet tall, identifying her as a female (male A. afarensis were considerably larger1 ). Based on her bones and slight indications of wear on her fully erupted wisdom teeth, “Lucy” is believed to have been a young adult when she died. Her skeleton showed no signs of extensive disturbance by scavengers, although one carnivore tooth puncture was observed on her pelvis.

Anatomically, A. afarensis displays a “mosaic” of apelike and humanoid features. Speaking very roughly, the top half of the species suggests a small-brained ape, whereas the lower half allegedly shows adaptations to a humanlike bipedal posture. The vast majority of paleoanthropologists have concluded that A. afarensis is a transitional species between apelike ancestors and humans.

In this report, I won't try to prove that A. afarensis was bipedal or an evolutionary ancestor of Homo sapiens. Although I have opinions on these matters, I am not an anthropologist and have nothing to say that isn't available in any mainstream anthropology textbook. Rather, I address the narrower question: why was the 288-1 pelvis cast cut up with a rotary saw and reassembled? In particular, was this the result of “evolutionary assumptions” as the creationist speaker said, or was it driven by objective scientific criteria? I do feel I have something to say about this because I've obtained information from the scientist who did the work, Dr. C. Owen Lovejoy.
Dr. Lovejoy is a professor of anthropology at Kent State University. He is also an adjunct professor of anatomy at the Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine and a member of the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery at Case Western University. He is a Technical Advisor to the Coroner's Office of Cuyahoga County (Cleveland); people's lives literally depend on the integrity and accuracy of his scientific analysis. He has published more than 100 articles in scientific publications, and was recently elected into the National Academy of Sciences, one of the top scientific honors in the nation.

I e-mailed Dr. Lovejoy with questions relating to the Creation Forum comments, and he responded with several detailed writeups and copies of published scientific papers. I am very grateful to Dr. Lovejoy for the time he has spent educating me on this issue. But before getting into Dr. Lovejoy's explanations, let's look at the relevant portions of the Nova episode:

DON JOHANSON: …The ape that stood up, it was a revolutionary idea. We needed Owen Lovejoy's expertise again, because the evidence wasn't quite adding up. The knee looked human, but the shape of her hip didn't. Superficially, her hip resembled a chimpanzee's, which meant that Lucy couldn't possibly have walked like a modern human. But Lovejoy noticed something odd about the way the bones had been fossilized.

OWEN LOVEJOY: When I put the two parts of the pelvis together that we had, this part of the pelvis has pressed so hard and so completely into this one, that it caused it to be broken into a series of individual pieces, which were then fused together in later fossilization.

DON JOHANSON: After Lucy died, some of her bones lying in the mud must have been crushed or broken, perhaps by animals browsing at the lake shore.

OWEN LOVEJOY: This has caused the two bones in fact to fit together so well that they're in an anatomically impossible position.

DON JOHANSON: The perfect fit was an [illusion] that made Lucy's hip bones seem to [flare] out like a chimp's. But all was not lost. Lovejoy decided he could restore the pelvis to its natural shape. He didn't want to tamper with the original, so he made a copy in plaster. He cut the damaged pieces out and put them back together the way they were before Lucy died. It was a tricky job, but after taking the kink out of the pelvis, it all fit together perfectly, like a three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle. As a result, the angle of the hip looks nothing like a chimp's, but a lot like ours. Anatomically at least, Lucy could stand like a human. The case for our earliest ancestor walking upright was growing stronger...2
The work on the pelvis is described as a restoration of its original condition, as the creationist speaker said in his e-mail. But what evidence is there that the fossil, as discovered, was not in its original condition?

Figure 2 is a photograph taken from a paper3 forwarded to me by Dr. Lovejoy. It shows the 288-1 iliac pelvis bone in its original condition. The figure caption reads,

"While much of the iliac blade is well preserved, the posterior third has been crushed, crumpled, and bent anterolaterally almost exactly 90o (PSIS: posterior superior iliac spine). Since the dislodged portion includes the auricular surface, the anatomical structure and relations of the pelvis cannot be determined prior to restoration; indeed, if the sacrum and unrestored innominate are articulated and mirror-imaged, a gap of several centimeters occurs at the pubic symphysis. Therefore, analyses of the hip joint of A. afarensis that are based upon its unrestored condition must be disregarded in discussions of its locomotor behavior."
It doesn't take a Ph.D. in anatomy to see that the PSIS portion of the pelvis has been rotated through a 90o angle. Lovejoy also notes above that the fossil in its original condition was inconsistent with functionality when the condition of bilateral symmetry was used to infer the missing right half of the pelvis. The original configuration, he writes, was anatomically impossible because there was no space in the sacroiliac joint — the pelvis would have been immobilized. Lovejoy makes it clear that biomechanical studies of the functionality of the A. afarensis pelvis cannot be done with the original fossil. Reconstruction was necessary because the pelvis was obviously fractured into about forty pieces (Figure 3) and distorted. This is not an assumption; it is an objective fact, disputed by no knowledgeable person.

Lovejoy made multiple casts of the pelvis, cut the fractured pieces out, and reassembled them. The pieces didn't have to be reshaped because there was no plastic deformation of the fossil — only simple breakage. Johanson has described the procedure:

Lucy's left innominate [hip bone] had been bent out of shape and broken into about forty pieces while it was embedded in the ground. Owen X-rayed the fossil and discovered that the back of Lucy's pelvis, where the sacrum connects with the innominate, had smashed against a rock or another bone during burial, shattering and twisting the ilium. He then spent six months carefully outlining and numbering each fragment of ilium, casting each piece of the fossil in plaster, smoothing out the edges, and then reassembling them in a three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle. Every fragment had to line up with adjoining pieces from both the front and the back side of the bone to convince Owen that he had overcome any distortion that occurred after the bone was damaged. Once Owen had restored the left side of the pelvis, he sculpted a mirror image of the right side in plaster and placed Lucy's sacrum in between to complete his masterpiece.4
Clearly, the reconstruction was not done cavalierly; it was, rather, guided by objective constraints of the most obvious sort — the pieces had to fit together! Lovejoy wrote to me:
Summary
As noted, this report is tightly focused on the specific question of the pelvis reconstruction. As originally stated, the impression was given that paleoanthropologists blithely alter fossil evidence to suit their own preconceptions. This misleading account of the pelvis reconstruction process has been featured in creationist films,5 publications and websites that mock the work of Dr. Lovejoy and sometimes even suggest that his and Dr. Johanson's scientific conclusions were distorted by a desire for additional grant money.6

Of course, no representation is made here that the scientists who study “Lucy” are infallible. Indeed, there has been some disagreement among anthropologists regarding certain anatomical aspects of “Lucy” and the locomotor capabilities of this species.7,8 The purpose here has been to judge whether Johanson and Lovejoy were intellectually competent and as honest as anyone (including creationists) should expect them to be. The conclusions are:

There was ample objective evidence that the pelvis of “Lucy” was fractured and distorted during the fossilization process.
Repair of the distortion was not only permissible, but necessary, in order for subsequent biomechanical analysis of the gait of A. afarensis to have any credibility.
The reconstruction of the pelvis was responsive to objective requirements that had nothing to do with “evolutionary assumptions.” The bones were not reshaped, but were taken apart and fit back together like a jigsaw puzzle. The “fit” of the pieces was determined by the shape of their surfaces. The requirement that the reconstructed pelvis have characteristics that would make it a functional part of a living organism placed tight constraints on the final result.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Acknowledgments
I am very grateful to Dr. C. Owen Lovejoy for his patience with my questions and the fascinating information he provided during our e-mail exchanges. Although he graciously reviewed this report, he is, of course, not responsible for any errors it may contain. I am also grateful to Dr. Donald Johanson, Director of the Institute of Human Origins at Arizona State University, for help with the early part of the research and for reviewing an earlier version of this report. I also acknowledge the effort the creationist speaker put into tracking down the Nova episode for me.


I really don't want to simply quote the entire page....TO borrow a line from you....do the research yourself....at least I have provided the source for my information.


By the way, co ncerning the proboscis monkey
Claim: Proboscis monkeys use bipedalism more often than other primates and often walk bipedally as "merely an alternative locomotor mode of getting from A to B."

Fact: Morgan bases this claim on several seconds of film taken by Japanese filmmakers, which showed several proboscis monkeys walking bipedally. On this subject, I just (August 9, '01) watched a TV program, "The Secret World of the Proboscis Monkeys", and over the course of the hour, those obnoxious primates simply refused to do any bipedal walking. Perhaps it was because it was French filmmakers this time, or maybe the anthropological conspiracy quashed all the bipedal episodes. Or, just possibly, it's what years of observations by primatologists tell us: Proboscis monkeys don't walk bipedally more often than other primates (all primates use bipedalism occasionally).
http://www.aquaticape.org/aatclaims.html



Its quite facsinating and once again points to the fact that YEC have exagerated the claims. Read through it and you will find a lot more to clarify the question of data tampering

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:27 pm
by Anita
Good for you Zoegirl you have cited a source. :clap:

However even after all this said, it is really no different than what I had originally said - of course in my own "POINT OF VIEW" that is.

Still the conjecture remains, Lucy was a species of monkey! Not a humanoid. Nor can it really be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that she was a "transitional" creature.

I don't get it, what are you REALLY trying to prove in all of this? :whistle:

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:41 pm
by zoegirl
Wow, what hypocrisy

I have asked you numerous times to cite your sources concerning Lucy specifically, the fossil frauds generally, the proboscis monkey, and all you say is...."do your own research", or "I don't have to cite my sources". YOu then accuse me of not providing resources.!!!!

Any comment on your hypocrisy?...someone is sounding trollish to me.

I have provided numerous sites concenring YEC fraud (never addressed by you), refuted your claims that Lucy was a fraud (shrugged aside with a snide comment about sources, has not been addressed by you), and addressed your comment concerning proboscis monkeys (and you don't even understand that I refuted your claim).

Ugh, no wonder scientists are put off

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:48 pm
by Anita
For one thing, I cannot believe that you are a teacher. Because if you truly are, you are sure a mighty confusing one when you post a comment like this one:
(and you don't even understand that I refuted your claim).
No I still dont understand your stance, I cant tell if your for me or against me. And no, you have not refuted/disproved/countered/proved false ANYTHING that I had said, only merely supplied the actual cited material which showed or alluded to exactly what I was talking about.

Again, these are all tricks of a horrible trade. Psalm 56:5 - All day long they twist my words;
they are always plotting to harm me.

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:18 pm
by zoegirl
Okaaay....

YOu made a claim that Lucy was grossly tampered with (with no sources), I provided a source refuting it...

YOu made a claim concerning the proboscis monkey (with no source), I provided a source refuting it...

I provided a source concerning the multitude of evidence for an Old Earth, you don't even touch it

Let's see....

YOu also refuse to tackle the YEC frauds

YOu make incredibly broad accusations....


Oh, yeah, then laughably suggest that I am finally providing sources (that one is still a source of amusement) while you have yet to provide a single source....oh, but wait, I get to do the research myself when you get to ignore all of mine.

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:02 pm
by Anita
Okaaay....

YOu made a claim that Lucy was grossly tampered with (with no sources), I provided a source refuting it...
So you did, and everything that source said was basically inline with everything I said without a source. Whoopie doo!
YOu made a claim concerning the proboscis monkey (with no source), I provided a source refuting it...
Again, don't need a source! What I said was basically common knowledge that those monkeys are bipedal and intermitedly walk upright. I also said that their pelvic area looks similar to a humans. And anyhow, your refutation did not disclaim it in any way.

But I'm sure there is more tit or tat coming from you on this.
I provided a source concerning the multitude of evidence for an Old Earth, you don't even touch it

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:13 pm
by David Blacklock
>>What makes it true is using basic common sense<<

Hi Anita,

Common sense is only a starting point in science. By itself, it doesn't mean anything. What may seem to be true in science frequently turns out not to be true when tested.

DB

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:25 am
by zoegirl
POint one:

Ok, (draws in a breath)....my source did not support your claim. YOU claim that they were deceptive... let me try an analogy

Suppose you found a jigsaw puzzle that you had put together in your basement but it had been messed up and, to make matters worse, a jar of glue fell over and fixed the pieces wrong.

It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to look at that puzzle and say "Wow what a beautiful scene"...You can see that it's messed up.

It wouldn't be deceptive to take apart the pieces and assemble them together. Nor would it be bad. It would be deceptive to assemble them incorrectly, but anybody who understands the scenery depected would be able to say "hey you did that incorrectly"

Ok, if that makes sense...this is what the paleontologists did with Lucy's pelvis. It had beenbroken and fossilized broken. And any good bone specialist or paleontologist or even someone fairly familiar with bones could see that the lines of the bones did not match up. So they made a *plaster* cast of the pelvis and took apart the pieces to reassemble them.

And the pieces flew against the hypothesis at the time. Now surely, if they were so deceptive and evil, they would have taken the time to reconstruct it to their own biases!!

Look, criticize Lucy herself, don't make (or follow) baseless accusations on the web

Point Two:

You claim that the monkeys walking is *common knowledge* but it is common knowledge that ISN"T NECESSARILY ACCURATE. Although they can walk upright for more time than other monkeys, by no means are they obligated to walk upright. Much of the misinformation about these monkeys from a book called "The Aquatic Ape" which has been fairly criticized although it has some interesting points. This is why people include sources, so that they can be examined.
anita wrote:pelvic area looks similar to a humans.
You will have to provide a source here. I have scoured the web and done numerous searches. Where in the world are you finding this. It certainly doesn't seem to be common knowledge. Where are the pictures? It can only help your case by providing the source. If you have a picture, I'd love to see it. I couldn't find it.

And these are my biggest objections:

1) YOu love to make assertions and not back them up, claiming they are common knowledge and therefore you are not obligated to provide the source for the information. And this is just plain silly, not to mention poor debate. ANy High school student wanting a good grade for the theses statement in their paper understands that they have to provide sources.

2) Any argument tht someone else provides that is counter to your beliefs is "bunk" (without examination)

3) You totally disregard the information that is out there countering your "point=of-view" by claiming you jut have faith. You've never even addresed the multitude of problems with YEC calculations. And this was after you made the grandiose statment that you can't trust anyting scienctists say because they are frauds. Never, not once
anita wrote: However, personally I believe that there is more evidence that supports a young earth than that of an old earth.
UNless you are going to address the PROBLEMS of YEC calcualtions that I provided, OR provide criticisms of the wealth of evidence for OEC,then your statement means absolutely nothing. It is akin to someone holding their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalallal" I can't hear you!!! :lalala: :lalala:

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:05 am
by Anita
This is all rather ridiculous, look don't try and cage me into the palindromes of labeled science! Again, these are all points of OPINION whether cited from original sources or not.

It becomes rather mute about Lucy's pelvis when she clearly had the brain of a monkey, that she indeed WAS A MONKEY! And again yes, IT IS MY OPPINION that her pelvis was altered to fit someone's perspective of how it should look.

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:15 am
by zoegirl
Hey, I AGREE with you about the significance of her walking upright. And about her brain size. That was never in contention.

What I was always concerned about was you allegation about the frauds in science and your unsupported claims.

Instead of focusing ON the evidence, you focused on alleging that they messed with the evidence, which is a pretty strong allegation, especially with no support. You essentially accused somebody of lying and deceit without the evidence to back it up.

Ok, sounds like we've established everything we wanted to establish.

Blessings

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:38 am
by Anita
Instead of focusing ON the evidence, you focused on alleging that they messed with the evidence, which is a pretty strong allegation, especially with no support. You essentially accused somebody of lying and deceit without the evidence to back it up.
Not exactly. Yes I called them frauds to the public because the evidence was misleading.

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:41 am
by Gman
Looks like Lucy might get kicked out of our family tree...
The recent discovery of one of the most complete skeletons of an australopithecine since "Lucy" has cast serious doubts on the current theories of human origins. The 2.6 million year old fossil of Australopithecus africanus is indisputably arboreal, although its 3.2 million year old ancestor, "Lucy" (Australopithecus afarensis), was bipedal. In addition, James Shreeve states, "the only two known partial skeletons of Homo Habilis, the earliest member of our genus, also have more apelike body proportions." In the April 1996 annual meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists, Dr. Lee Berger stated, "One might say we are kicking Lucy out of the family tree."
Source: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/news.html
Ever since the discovery of the skeletal remains of a female hominid several decades ago, “Lucy? has been widely publicized as a significant branch in the evolutionary tree of human ancestry. We've all seen the compelling textbook sketches and authoritative descriptions. However, new jaw-dropping evidence appears to have pushed Lucy out of her tree.

Fuz Rana reports in detail on Creation Update (and also provides a summary of the breakthrough in Today's New Reason To Believe, April 29) that Australopithecus afarensis (Lucy's Latin biological name) is now considered—at best—a dead end or side branch.

The evolutionary paradigm holds that A. afarensis lived about 3.3 million to 2.5 million years ago and gave rise to Homo habilus, from which modern humans ultimately emerged. Again, Fuz explains all the nomenclature—who gave rise to whom—but the point here is to note that a group called the robust australopithecines emerge as an evolutionary side branch from A. afarensis. In other words, the robust australopithecines are not part of the supposed human lineage.

The original Lucy specimen discovered in 1974 included 40% of a complete skeleton but not much of a jawbone. However, scientists recovered an A. afarensis jawbone in 2002 and recent analysis of the specimen shows that it resembles a gorilla rather than a human. Another way to say it is that this “derived? jawbone anatomy would be expected if the family belonged to the line that gave rise to the robust australopithecines—meaning that it's a dead end. Thus, the fossil record shows no evolutionary connection between Lucy (A. afarensis) and modern humans.

For evolution to be considered factual there must be an evolutionary pathway. Proposed transitional intermediate forms demonstrating such a pathway in the fossil record seem to disappear as science progresses. Where then is the human lineage? Do we need to wait around for more data? That might help but we already have models that attempt to explain nature's record. Which one best fits the facts?

It seems self-evident that when looking at a model comparison, scientific advance continues to hack away at the roots of the human evolutionary tree and, therefore, of its model. Conversely, such evidence fits a biblical creation model that places these creatures in the animal realm—remarkable in their own right but distinct from human beings who alone bear the image of their Creator.
Source: http://www.reasons.org/blogs/average_joe/?p=31

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:21 am
by Himantolophus
Anita: let me clarify a few things.

1. I am not a troll. I have posted on this forum intermittently for a while now
2. I apologize for the sarcasm on my last post. Sometimes typed words are easy to misinterpret as "attacking".

BUT, as Zoegirl seems to agree, you are doing this to yourself.

You fit into the classic YEC group that simply asserts things (hominid fossils are fake, proboscis monkeys stroll around on 2 legs all the time, humans could repopulate in 4000 years, cavemen lived with modern man, etc.) and provide NO evidence to back their assertions up. This does not stand in a debate. Without supporting evidence you can make all the crazy claims you want. I could say the toothfairy is real, Santa is real, God is a spagetti monster, all on the basis that I THINK that is true. I can assert this all day long but at the end of the day, you haven't convinced anyone of anything.

Most people on this site (evolutionist/TE/OEC) that have posted to this thread have backed their information up with sources. If you wish to debate them you have to refute what they said with sources. I can not say it more clearly.

Many people on this site use the literal Bible to support their OEC beliefs. Since you bpoth use the Bible to support your beliefs, you have to move on and use real world evidence to find proof for YEC. You have not done that.

Again, I will keep my sarcastic tone down from now on but please try and answer questions posed to you?

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:44 am
by Himantolophus
Himantolophus, I really think this is just a test to try and insult my intelligence. Either that or you are just trying to pry information out of me for your own selfish self. Or maybe, you are just an evil troll.
no I'm not... see above
Hmmm lets see… Nebraska man, Piltdown man, Swanscombe Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, Pithecanthropus, Homo erectus, Lucy, and Australopithecines... The history of hominid paleontology is a history of shifting charts, shifting theories, and many uncertainties. Simply put, it doesn't fall neatly together into a nice evolutionary package. Many scientists spend their careers jousting over the proper interpretation of ancient teeth, bone chips and dust. In fact all the hominid bones in all the world wouldn't fill one large coffin, and the very best skeletons are only 40% complete. So we're really working with a lack of evidence.
ok, we don't have the huge number of fossils right now to satisfy you but that doesn't mean that those fossils have no importance. Most of them show species that clearly are not H. sapiens and are clearly not Great Apes. They are clearly not monkeys. Most hominid bodies were not properly buried, as in all fossil animals. The remains were often torn asunder and carried around by scavengers. That is why fossils of almost all land creatures are so rare. So is rarity a problem? I don't think so. The fossils just happened to be buried by a flash flood or landslide and those are the ones we have found. That's not to say we've found them all. Additional fossils are constantly turning up.

On this topic though I ask you: If there was a global flood, there should be abundant and completely intact fossils of land animals and plants all over the world. However fossils of most species are very rare and the majority of fossils we find are from sea creatures. Why is that if everything (land and sea) was buried in the Flood? Why aren't the remains of Pre-Flood man and technology being found? If they are, why not more common?
Starting at Nebraska man… this whole reconstruction was based on one tooth that turned out to be the tooth of an extinct pig.

Piltdown Man… The skull was a human skull, a combination of a human and ape jaw, eight teeth were filled, and the bone was treated with iron salts to give the appearance of age.
ok, you have 2 fakes
Cro-Magnon Man, Neanderthal Man and Swanscombe Man… Now considered to be Homo sapiens - modern humans. Their brain capacity was actually larger than modern man. Their skeletal features are virtually indistinguishable from modern man. If you took any of these race of men, gave them a shave, dressed them up in a suit of clothes and walked them down Rodeo Drive, no one would take notice.
there is evidence that H. neanderthalensis is a subspecies of modern man, but there is also evidence that they are separate species.
Cro-Magnon man was simply another name for H. sapiens living in Europe 10-45K years ago. It is a modern human.
Swanscombe Man was a primitive race of H. sapiens it appears but the bone fragments are too few foir conclusive placement. From Wiki:
"The skull fragments were found in the lower middle terrace gravels at a depth of almost 8 metres beneath the surface. They were found by Alvan T. Marston, an amateur archaeologist who visited the pit between quarrying operations to search for flint tools. A third, matching fragment of the same skull was found in 1955. The estimated age of the cranium fragments is 200,000 - 300,000 years ago. The estimated brain size is 1325 cc, the bones are very thick, show both primitive and modern features, and are believed to belong to an archaic form of Homo sapiens[1], possibly a descendant of Homo heidelbergensis as found at Boxgrove Quarry, and a distant ancestor of the Neanderthals.[2]

Further excavations, carried out between 1968-1972 by Dr. John d'Arcy Waechter, uncovered more animal bone and flint tools, and established the extent of a former shoreline that the bones were found on."

Now, one of the earliest of those transitional types was known as Pithecanthropus, or Homo erectus, also known as Java man, Heidelberg man and Peking man. The archeologist who have discovered these bones (actually only a ape skull fragment) have admitted that they were found within a few feet away from that of human skulls and bones and confided that the bones could have been mixed.
source for the last sentence?
So all of these H. erectus are fake too?
"Some of the major Homo erectus fossils:
Indonesia (island of Java): Trinil 2 (holotype), Sangiran collection, Sambungmachan collection, Ngandong collection
China: Lantian (Gongwangling and Chenjiawo), Yunxian, Zhoukoudian, Nanjing, Hexian
India: Narmada (taxonomic status debated!)
Kenya: WT 15000 (Nariokotome), ER 3883, ER 3733
Tanzania: OH 9
Vietnam: Northern, Tham Khuyen, Hoa Binh
Republic of Georgia: Dmanisi collection
Turkey: Kocabas fossil[16] "


What about the other hominid species?
Homo erectus remains one of the most successful and long-lived species of the Homo genus. It is generally considered to have given rise to a number of descendant species and subspecies. The oldest known specimen of the ancient human was found in southern Africa.

Homo erectus
Homo erectus yuanmouensis
Homo erectus lantianensis
Homo erectus wushanensis
Homo erectus pekinensis
Homo erectus palaeojavanicus
Homo erectus soloensis
Other species

Homo floresiensis
Homo antecessor
Homo heidelbergensis
Homo neanderthalensis
Homo sapiens
Homo sapiens sapiens
Homo rhodesiensis
Homo cepranensis

Following this is Ramapithecus… Consisting of only several teeth and jaw fragments, canine teeth. These are simply just apes.
you are right, scientists agree: from Wiki
"Siwalik specimens once assigned to the genus Ramapithecus are now considered by most researchers to belong to one or more species of Sivapithecus. Ramapithecus is no longer regarded as a likely ancestor of humans.

The first incomplete specimens of Ramapithecus were found in Nepal on the bank of Tenau River western part of the country in 1932. The finder (G. Edward Lewis) claimed that the jaw was more like a human's than any other fossil ape then known. [1] In the 1960s this claim was revived. At that time, it was believed that the ancestors of humans had diverged from other apes 15 million years ago. Biochemical studies upset this view, suggesting that there was an early split between orangutan ancestors and the common ancestors of chimps, gorillas and humans. Humans had separated from African apes about five million years ago, not 15 million or 25 million.[2]

Meanwhile, more complete specimens of Ramapithecus were found in 1975 and 1976, which showed that it was less human-like than had been thought. It began to look more and more like Sivapithecus - meaning that the older name must take priority. It could be that Ramapithecus was just the female form of Sivapithecus. [3] They were definitely members of the same genus. It is also likely that they were already separate from the common ancestor of chimps, gorillas and humans, though fossils of this presumed ancestor have not yet been found."

Australopithecines africanus also known as Eoanthropus, Anamensis, Homo habilus or more popularly known as Lucy, … Said to have walked upright. However they determined this from just little bits and pieces of bones… Lucy's pelvis bone was altered to make it fit, and the knee bone was not even found with Lucy (it was found a mile away).
This is your opinion only. I will side with the paleantologists with professional experience in this field.

Re: Ultimate "blind" proof of Darwinian Evolution

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:46 am
by Himantolophus
I'm not going to do the math for you since I feel at this point that you are just trolling for trouble. I did the research on the hominids for you, the rest you can muster up for yourself with a simple Google search.
I have and I've found that it is impossible. The only sites that consider it possible are YEC sites. That rings a few warning bells.