Evidence for God from Science

Hi Zebulon, I hope you will be continuing to post on this thread and forum. Your last post sounded like you were 'leaving us'. I stopped coming here for about six months and have only been visiting again recently, as I have found the attitudes of some here, or how they respond, not very tactful or loving. It's important to discuss and even challenge ideas or beliefs that seem contrary to our own beliefs, or should I say the accepted beliefs of this web site (which represents mainstream Christianity I think), but we have to be careful we don't alienate people by coming over as haughty, impatient, rude (at times) and negative. I believe that loving others, as you describe, is far more important than being right over a certain doctrine. I could spend hours studying about hell or the trinity, (and I have) or whatever and still not be sure, when I could be out helping others. Love is the greatest gift of God's spirit, and it covers a multitude of sins. If we are incorrect on something we believe then I am sure God will sort it out in due time, if we are striving to have love amoung ourselves and others.


P.s
I'm not advocating a free for all without perameters and I know that this site stands for certain beliefs and so I respect this.

catherine wrote: You...say you 'guess' the quotes [by Jefferson & Lincoln] are fabrications. I find that this surprising that you 'guess' and don't 'check' if you doubt the quotes!!

Catherine (and others),

It is impossible for me to check these quotes. The only written article I have here in my home by Jefferson is The Declaration of Independence (of the USA). I have nothing that Lincoln wrote. Also - as I've mentioned - nowhere have I seen a footnote attributing these quotes to a verifiable document. A footnote would allow anybody to at least google the article and verify the quote.

Here is something:

all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off [...], and provide new guards for their future security.≠

Read the above quote carefully. It contains a very succinct observation: we are content to live and let live as long as we don't suffer too much. Yet it is our right and duty to throw off what emprisons us and choose a bright future. It is way too easy to fall into the trap of believing that the Bible isn't the only way to God, or that the Bible speaks of reincarnation and Karma. To go against these common worldly notions, to say «NO! The Bible is the only word of God!» takes the Holy Spirit. When I saw that Zebulon was pushing his worldly ideas, I stepped in because I thought you (Catherine) were falling for them. (Thankfully, Zoegirl and B.W. also joined the conversation in defense of the faith.)

FL

≠The Declaration of Independence, lines 17-22, by Thomas Jefferson.

catherine wrote:Hi Zebulon, I hope you will be continuing to post on this thread and forum.

Sure, at least for a while...

catherine wrote:Your last post sounded like you were 'leaving us'.

Yup I tought so,but not as yet.

catherine wrote: I stopped coming here for about six months and have only been visiting again recently, as I have found the attitudes of some here, or how they respond, not very tactful or loving.

Yes, it is like that. They need our help. You see I think that if someone tries to convince, it is because he does not believe himself what he or she is trying to make you believe. It is a human factor. So now, I am, myself, trying to convince you that I do not believe myself what I am trying to make you believe. It is a human factor

catherine wrote: It's important to discuss and even challenge ideas or beliefs that seem contrary to our own beliefs, or should I say the accepted beliefs of this web site (which represents mainstream Christianity I think), but we have to be careful we don't alienate people by coming over as haughty, impatient, rude (at times) and negative.

This is so true. My father is an athist. Well he say so. As a question, Atheism does not exist. Simply speaking they just lack of trying to make you believe in what they say they do not. Believing in nothing is believing in the fact that one believes in nothing. So then he has to prove that he believes in nothing to be convinced of not believing in... and so on.

catherine wrote: I believe that loving others, as you describe, is far more important than being right over a certain doctrine. I could spend hours studying about hell or the trinity, (and I have) or whatever and still not be sure, when I could be out helping others.

RIGHT! So tell me about trinity. It is a question I would like to understand more. I am reading Carl Gustav Jung actually, his book biography My Life, and I find in this man very interresting things. He is a true believer in his own word, in his very own experience of life. And let me say to you that this man helped a lot of people in needs to get out of sufferings.

catherine wrote:P.s
I'm not advocating a free for all without perameters and I know that this site stands for certain beliefs and so I respect this.

So do I.

Zebulon

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: It is way too easy to fall into the trap of believing that the Bible isn't the only way to God

The bible is just a book. The only way to God is Jesus-Christ and he and his words are mentioned in millions of other books. Even in the QuRan. To me thats way anought. I see him more and more everywhere. And everywhere he can be dismissed, mocked, baseballbatted (is this a word?). But everything seems to come back to him. Where He said so.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:When I saw that Zebulon was pushing his worldly ideas, I stepped in because I thought you (Catherine) were falling for them. (Thankfully, Zoegirl and B.W. also joined the conversation in defense of the faith.)

I am kindly laughing at you Fürstentum.

To get out of the subject you mentionned that you collect old religious books. I have put my hands on some quite interresting books lately. One is Forbidden Gospels and Epistles, By Archbishop Wake - 1671 or around this date An electronic book from the Gutemberg Project.
A very funny book, but still quite interresting. Maybe the Archbishop Wake was not to aWake... but in some kind he plunged me in Mary, mother of Jesus.

I also collect sexy books of the past. Books that where put in the Catholic Index. Actually most of them are humouristic ways of seing sex in the every day of living. It is so full of simplicity and human normal behaviours and, so full of poetry, compare to the pornography of our days. Some of them are delightfull.

Cheers

Zebulon.

The love of ones self, opinions, ideas shines through all the time.

One thing about the bible - it goes against that grain. In fact, I often wonder since it does maybe that is a reason why people hate it so.

Think of the wisdom that went into going against the grain in order to arrest a person's attention. Stop signs are big and red. The barrier placed across the highway keeps a person from straying onto a road where barely out of sight the bridge is washed out. It is far easier to run a stop sign or decide to travel past the barrier because that is way it should be. Who needs truth when all is relative?

You heard it all before: How dare the small minority of evil Christians tell us we need to stop and heed the direction we want to go - it is our right! The bible, bah - humbug - who needs it! It's just an old book — an antique and a piece of junk.

The bible indeed goes against the grain. I guess that is God's way of telling us what the right direction is due to its difference alone. Such is the wisdom that does not go with the flow so a person knows they are indeed on the right path. The difference is in the message.

Broad is the way the leads to destruction and the majority go that way. Narrow is the way and few travel it mostly due to the bullying by the majority. Funny about the majority, they accuse the minority that they are forcing their values on the majority. I guess they desire a scapegoat more than a mirror.

Imagine, little gold crosses worn on your sleeves. The exodus of evil narrow minded Christians. Barbwire, starvation, smoke stacks, bodies — justifying getting rid of the evil Christian menace. Yes, it is easy to go with the flow — isn't it?

Stop and take a breath, look at what you are saying, what road are you heading down, is that to much to ask?
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Since this thread is discussing a possible mark of the end times regarding the financial crisis, another mark is end time persecution.

Revelations 12:11,17, “11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death…..Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus…” ESV

End times or not, persecution does happen as Jesus stated it would:

John 15:19, “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.” ESV

Persecution does not happen overnight. It takes time and effort. People engage in its rhetoric first. This builds over the years. Militant atheism does this type of thing and likewise does progressive liberalism. People get caught up in the talk and before you know it some time through the years someone will act on it.

Let's see let me quote a few: Christians are narrow minded and homophobic bigots! Christians cling to an ancient outdated book not fit for modern times. Christian are just in for it for the money. Christians are all hypocrites. Their bible is a joke. The far right conspiracy is a great danger. All Christian priest are child molesters.

Note that Hitler's Germany inherited over a 100 of years of rhetorical persecution before Hitler came into power. Now add the word Jew for Christian, their, and right wing in the above paragraph and you may see where we are heading too.

Yes, the world hates Christianity as well as Judaism and if it is the end times, then the rhetoric will become action. Toss in a financial crisis, next, add someone with a messianic complex coming on the scene to be a leader of a country that the world oohs and ahhs over, well should I say more?

Have a governing body use the scapegoat theory compounded with societal group think brought on by anti-Christian, anti God rhetoric and learning, the mix is ready to bake.

In the actual end times, both Jews and Christians will be persecuted, the bible uses the phrase 'make war against' God's people (Jews and Christians). That is a strong word — make war against. Before war comes propaganda.

I do not claim we are in the end times. All I know, we are closer to it than we were last year. Maybe the stage is being set? It maybe years or centuries away? God only knows.
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Hi Furstentum Liechtenstein, I've been checking up on the 'president quotes' I provided earlier. By typing in the first few words of each quote I was able to find out lots of info and some possible sources of where they come from:

Jefferson's quote: 'a letter that Jefferson wrote to a man named John Taylor in 1816, Jefferson thanked Mr. Taylor for sending him a copy of a publication that he wrote titled Enquiry into the principles of our government.'
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/ ... anking.htm

Lincoln's Quote: 'Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins) Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY). http://www.ratical.org/corporations/Lincoln.html

For for those more interested in verifying these quotes it is somewhere to start from at least.

You quote more of Lincoln: '......it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off [...], and provide new guards for their future security.'≠

I think you are preaching to the converted. The quotes I provided were interesting in that they were supposed observations or warnings of what could happen in the future if the banking systems got too powerful. And we are seeing these very things happening in front of our eyes! If those quotes turn out to be false (although from what I have researched I'm sure they are not) then I apologise whole- heartedly for using them. It still doesn't alter the fact that the banking systems have acted in the most reckless, dishonest, greedy way. Going on to your quote: it is advocating something that could result in us going against God's laws. (e.g there are Christians who are conscientious objectors as they do not believe in killing for political purposes). We have to be careful with our involvement with politics as this world is governed by the god of this world, the devil. B.W has posted something about 'going against the grain'. I believe the grain, to be the spirit of this world, the spirit that pervades politics and which is at enmity with God.

Hi Zebulon, glad you are sticking around as well All I'll say about the trinity is that I'm not sure about it. I'm still studying it. There are some other threads on the board regarding it, so I've got lots of reading to do.

This post is getting interesting. I particularly found the 'China- One World Currency' article very interesting. I look forward to watching the news to see what else is unfolding. I'm sure there will be more for us to discuss as the weeks and months unfold.

Hi Catherine,

catherine wrote:We have to be careful with our involvement with politics as this world is governed by the god of this world, the devil.

I think this is true. And I am very happy that you bring it up. So did Jesus, the first one to bring it up so clearly. And it did not changed in 2000 years like he said so, until his coming back. And we have to face it. This world is govern by the devil and his main tools are lies and mammon. This is why God is not for sale.

Sale? I like to play with words sometimes as they deliver meanings that we do not necessarely see... and it is fun. Sale in english is selling. In the french version of my country it means dirty. Same word.

Conspiraciy? Yes indeed. The conspiracy is so strong that people (not necessarely well intensioned) are selling it. It is the best way of putting it as it is not true. Lies for lies for we can not see the thruth.

A lot of responses come to me at night. Is it like this for you? I mean when I am sleeping, or half asleep, and else.

Have a very good day. I am going to read a bit more on what is going on, and work as well...

Zebulon

Another long article by the same writer...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=10647

Cheers

Zebulon

I just love the seriousness of the US presidentials... http://www.stealbackyourvote.org/

Zebulon

I've found some great educational videos regarding money, the financial crisis etc and here is one of them, a recording of a presentation by Ed Griffin back in 1994. He is an American film producer, author, and political lecturer.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0371055528

What will strike you is that what he alludes to back in 1994 is now happening and I can't help think of the stuff in Revelation and what he is talking about as being related. See what you think. It's about 45 minutes long and I guarantee that if you give it five minutes you will enjoy it.

catherine wrote:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0371055528

What will strike you is that what he alludes to back in 1994 is now happening and I can't help think of the stuff in Revelation and what he is talking about as being related. See what you think. It's about 45 minutes long and I guarantee that if you give it five minutes you will enjoy it.

Very interresting ideed. I follow some links and foud this one with Hey Jude song from Paul McCartney that I was greatfull to see in a 3 hour show here in Quebec city last summer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZg_cDtPPhk

I liked his approach and description of Leninism and Fabianism on one of his other movie (Griffin not McCartney ;o). He sometimes seem to be surrounded by weird people but, frankly, who is not in this world. Eaven the bible is surrounded and insided by weird people.

Cheers,

Zebulon

Catherine of course, the financial collapse is a sign of the END TIME. It was planned and calculated and carried out by the financial elite called the Illuminati or if you are too sensitive to that word, by the richest of the rich..... or the real POWER behind the facade called politics and nationalism.

It's a tough study though for most Christians as they have been taught in most churches to obey theior governments without question and to be a Christian means to most to equate God and COUNTRY together. So an extremely sensitive topic to get into for most Christians and they will fight it tooth and nail, because of their ingrained atitudes.

For like the phony contrived war on terror took away human rights overseas and within Western countries, the financial collapse is to take away economic power from the majority of the people as the richest of the rich get wealthier. It is a manipulation, that is easy to determine. On purpose and via collusion, the SEC let greed go on and on, just as in the personal robbery of the Jewish banker and his pyramid scheme. It takes collusion from those on top.

OK. So as revelation says the worldly government called America, the Great Whore is in bed with other countries via her materialism which they worship, but she is stopped by the Beast, the AC from starting anymore wars. And the MARK or new economic system replaces the null and void and bankrupt dollar.

America is totally out of the picture in the End Time because as a country it no longer exists. Sorry, we all have to wake up.

Anyway its a longer story and a complete perspective of time and devious back room methods has to understood to get most awat from the naive thoughts that conspiracies don't happen to good countries and good people

Hi David, thanks for your thoughts on this. I believe as Christians, we shouldn't get involved in politics. (Our Kingdom and King is not of this world) and I'm not sure if this financial mess was planned or the consequences of undoubted corruption. We can watch and see how things pan out.