Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:11 am**

jlay

Thanks, I'll go and hunt for the thread. Mind you, my excuse is that the thread title seems entirely appropriate to a discussion of Marcion!

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:02 pm**

It has been awhile since I last posted so let me add a bit more:

In Joshua 5:13-15 we have another example of incarnate Christ, second person of the divine Trinity, appearing before Joshua as a man. This is an common theme in the Old Testament writings of God appearing in the form of a man. He did so with Abraham (Genesis 18:2), Isaac (Genesis 26:2), Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30), Moses (Exodus 3:2, 6), and Manoah (Judges 13:22) as well as with others.

Objectors of the Trinity point out that these manifestations concern angels acting on God's behalf but neglect to answer why during such angelic manifestations that these very angels allowed themselves to be worshiped!

There are specific examples in the bible which reveal true angelic beings never permitting themselves to be worshiped as well as stopping such worship of themselves. We see this is the following two passages of scripture:

Revelation 19:10, "Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." SV

Revelation 22:8-9, "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, 9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." ESV

Even after speaking on God's behalf, as Peter did to Cornelius, Peter himself refused such worship as recorded in Acts 10:25-26: "When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man." ESV

In Joshua 5:13-15 we have the account of Joshua seeing a man standing before him with a drawn sword. When this man identified himself as the Commander of the Armies of the Lord, Joshua prostrated himself and worshiped this person he stood before. After Joshua calls him lord, this man told him to take off his shoes for he was standing on holy ground.

If this were merely a man, or an angelic being, why did he not stop Joshua from worshipping himself when in other scriptures such angelic beings forbade this practice? The bible even proclaims that we only worship God and none other (Exodus 20:3). If this were but a mere mortal man, would not such worship constitute a violation of these scriptural principles?

Joshua 5:13-15, "When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?" 14 And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?" 15 And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so." ESV

Joshua saw the pre-incarnate Christ - known as the Word (John 1:1-3) and also called the Commander of the Armies of the Lord in Revelation 19:11-13:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses." ESV

Who else can the commander in chief of the Armies of the Lord be except the Lord himself? Therefore, we have a strong Trinitarian proof in Joshua chapter five listed. In Joshua 6:2 we have this man speaking and identified as no other than Yahweh. After all, in Joshua 5:13 there is no other personage identified along with or with the one speaking and revealed! The Commander of the Lord's Armies is identified as none other than Yahweh.

You can even say from the force of the text that two distinct persons of one divine essence are being revealed here: the Son as the Commander of the Lord and the Father (Joshua 6:2) granting the taking of Jericho through the Son. Have trouble understanding this? Then take it up with Jesus by noting John 5:19, 23 and John 14:10-11 as examples of this principle.

In conclusion, we have another reference pointing out God's divine nature existing as the Holy Trinity. Truly, there is none like him!
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Posted: **Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:40 pm**

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:17 pm**

Thanks for bumping this. I am so excited I can't wait to get into this study. Bless you for sharing it.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:08 pm**

Is it possible that the trinity is just different forms of GOD?

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:25 am**

Tina wrote:Is it possible that the trinity is just different forms of GOD?

One God, in three persons. Don't ask me to explain it. My head will explode.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:03 am**

The Trinity doctrine was worded and written with the language of the 4th century and we need to understand that the terms were for that audience and for THEIR understanding of what those terms meant ( the term person for them didn't mean exactly for it means for us).
We also need to understand that it was MAN's attempt to explain God's nature, a task that in of itself is virtually impossible.
It was a valiant effort that caused more problems than it fixed according to some.
It was, nevertheless, something that needed to be done to combat the heresays like Arianism.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:39 pm**

PaulSacramento wrote:The Trinity doctrine was worded and written with the language of the 4th century and we need to understand that the terms were for that audience and for THEIR understanding of what those terms meant ( the term person for them didn't mean exactly for it means for us).
We also need to understand that it was MAN's attempt to explain God's nature, a task that in of itself is virtually impossible.
It was a valiant effort that caused more problems than it fixed according to some.
It was, nevertheless, something that needed to be done to combat the heresays like Arianism.

Here is a Link to Cram that might help explain things as well too... I think it helps put this into better perspective

http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... ok-trinity
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Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:46 am**

B. W. wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:The Trinity doctrine was worded and written with the language of the 4th century and we need to understand that the terms were for that audience and for THEIR understanding of what those terms meant ( the term person for them didn't mean exactly for it means for us).
We also need to understand that it was MAN's attempt to explain God's nature, a task that in of itself is virtually impossible.
It was a valiant effort that caused more problems than it fixed according to some.
It was, nevertheless, something that needed to be done to combat the heresays like Arianism.

Here is a Link to Cram that might help explain things as well too... I think it helps put this into better perspective

http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... ok-trinity
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I enjoy that site and this part really sums it up:
As the Trinitarian doctrine maintains, each of the persons of the Godhead is distinct, yet they are all each, by nature, God.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:10 am**

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:46 am**

I am posting this from another thread as it touches on this subject...

PaulSacramento wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:Good point @ PaulSacramento. I understand God to be easy to understand rather than confusing as per "he is not the author of confusion" Corinthians somewhere... Anyway, The "oneness doctrine" teaches that Jesus IS the Father because when reading John 1:1 at the end is "and the word was God" or in other words "and the son was God (the Father) It is a daunting task to teach the "trinity" to have some sort of understanding from it come to light. I have never understood it. I think the early church fathers didn't understand themselves, thus the counsels. My wife is trinitarian, and I don't get her explanation either. One more thing, why does "spell check" say that trinitarian is not the correct spelling Don't think I am trying to change your faith or anything like that. I am just a simple man with a set of beliefs that differ with "mainstream" Christianity.
I am not a huge fan of the trinity doctrine because I have seen the confusion it can cause ( because of the wording) BUT I agree that Father, Son and HS are all GOD ( share the same divine nature and are a perfect union of spirit).
I think that issue is not so much understanding it, but explaining it !
The analogy used by some of the mythical beast Cerebrus is a good one: One being with 3 personalities.
The problem is that it gives us the mental image of a pagan myth AND a 3 headed monster and instead of focusing on the BEING, we focus on the image.
Humans are Triune in nature- Mind, body and spirit.
God being a relational being is to me, what makes the Trinity doctrine correct ( if ill-worded) and this is why:
If God was ONE ( the father only) then it seems that he was "incomplete" since he couldn't be relational ( He has no one to relate to) and He would only knwo "self-love" ( since He had no one to love till He created Jesus) and all that would make Him inferior to a being that knows "selfless love" and that means that He can't be God.

Paul stated an important point – human beings are tri nature. In fact living organisms on earth are all tri-nature. The lowly bacteria or micro is made up of three distinct substances and so in the human body. On a purely biological level, we have fluids, body mass, andbio-electrical impulses in the brain. This lines up with Romans 1:20 and Genesis 1:26-28.

The key to understanding the triune essence of God is first realize God is Self Existent and next God is Spirit. From our own nature, fashioned as an image of his, we too have three distinct parts that make us one being. There is none Like God the bible tells us and God is not like man at all, yet, for Romans 1:20 to be true, a mirror reflection, or hint, of tri-nature is found in God's Self Existing Spirit as well.

Therefore the key point to understanding the Trinity is God's Self Existence. Unlike human beings, God's nature of Self Existence Nature means all His three parts are able to Self Exist and Live In a codependent/coequal state as they are the of the same essence. Due to the Self Existing Nature of God, each part of God are each self existing due to God's eternal self existent make up as One Spiritual Being.

This is not modalism because within the living nature of God's self existence are divine parts of the Godhead' oneness. Due to God's self existing nature, all three parts that make God - God are co-self existing, co-living, each with their own intelligence, attributes, and personhood and are capable of co(self)existence in a unique form of oneness which in Hebrew is defined as an Echaud that makes one divine essence in order for God to function.

However, in Modalism God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms during certain periods of time. One period of Time, God appeared as Father, another era as the Son, and current era, the Holy Spirit. Modalist accuse Trinitarians of heresy in that Trinitarians teach that there are three separate gods.

That accusation is simply not true. Modalist do not listen to reason but appear to be programmed by a religious spirit of self vindictive superior righteousness of sorts that cuts them off from the rest of the body of Christ. The Trinity defines One Majestic God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Thus fulfilling his own words: None Like Him…

Isa 46:9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me..." NASB

Deut 33:26 "There is no one like the God of Jeshurun... NKJV

Yet for us, we have a reflection of tri-nature within ourselves (Rom 1:20), but our makeup cannot self exist independently. Our Blood/Liquids cannot go and build a house by itself. Neither can the body (flesh/bone/internal organs) separate and go do something else independently of our fluids and bio electrical components that make us one. Yet, for God, his self existing nature can separate, do tasks, yet remain one (echaud). None like God.

Modalist are in violation of Exodus 20:3, 4 in that their explanation of God's oneness promotes is just like any state of oneness of anything seen in heaven above, or seen in the earth or beneath it, or that what is in the water. God's state of oneness is as common as one chair, one duck, one tree. God's oneness is just like any other state of oneness seen anywhere and thus the None Like God is violated (Isa 46:9, Deut 33:26)

Now Look at these principles which validates what I wrote above about God self existing nature, for, He is who He is, the I AM that I AM (Self Existing One)

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 5:19-21 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Joh 10:30 I and My Father are one."

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

John 5:26-27 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Mat 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever... 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

John 16:13-16 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. 16 "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

Bible verses from NKJV unless otherwise cited.
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Posted: **Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:34 am**

This is from another post and it fits here ....

1stjohn0666 wrote:without spot or blemish .. Perfect sacrifice. In the other area "inspired or dictated" The us is clearly the heavenly court (angels). Job 38:7 "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Lets keep "inspired or dictated" to that topic. We should keep any debate here, it's kind of fun.

The verses I mention below were ones I was preparing for this Topic as Post 19 about a year ago but neglected to post it until revised to answer too person quoted above.

Isaiah 45:18 NKJV, "For thus says YHWH, Who created the heavens, Who is HaElohim, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the YHWH, and there is no other."

In Isaiah 45:18 NKJV quoted above, I replaced the Hebrew proper names translated in the NKJV as God and LORD to YHWH and HaElohim. This is striking in its impact. HaElohim refers to YHWH and literally expressing - all of God - in his true united tri-nature form. Then next, the last part states clearly no other was involved in creation. He will not share glory with another.

Job 38:1-7 is saying the same thing. As for the morning stars sing together and all the sons of God shouted for joy nowhere does this indicate at all that these were partners with God creating everything or anything. These only were singing and shouting for joy. They are not part of the US. Isaiah 45:18 states there were no other beings involved in creation as the context indicates.

Now look at Gen 2:7 - this verse clearly states that no others were involved in creation of man and no other breathed into Adam the breath of life. The Us's were not angelic beings.

So does the bible anywhere in the OT demonstrate God's Tri-natured essence? Yes it does, for example let us look into the book of Isaiah.

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last." Isa 48:12 NKJV

Isa 48:12 shows the preincarnate Divine Jesus (Son) speaking clearly. How can we be sure of this? Rev 1: 8, Rev 1:11 NKJV, Rev 1:17, 18c verifies what he spoke in Isaiah 48:11, 12, 13 was indeed him.

The Lord then speaks of Cyrus in verses 14 and 15 and then something else the Lord says is very telling in Verse 16 and 17.

Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV

Here we have the First and the Last speak who is identified as God Himself hidden in the name YHWH as Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 41:4 reveals. Then in verse 16, God says, the lord God and His Spirit Have sent me. Let me place the real Hebrew word translated as GOD in the text:

Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord (Adonai) YHWH and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV

You have the something of note being said here. You have YHWH saying the lord YHWH and His Spirit sent Him to speak. Jesus is known as the Word in John 1:1. Who would be the lord YHWH and why was adonai (Lord) placed before the name? It Identifies the Father and His Sprit - the Holy Spirit sent him!

If you look at Isaiah 48:17-22, you’ll notice a switch in voice tone as the Father begins to speak in these verses. How can you tell? Verse 21 mentions a He that led Israel in the wilderness:

Isa 48:21 NKJV And they did not thirst When He led them through the deserts; He caused the waters to flow from the rock for them; He also split the rock, and the waters gushed out.
Who was the He? (Exodus 33:14, 15, Exodus 13:21, Exodus 16:10, Exodus 19:9, then note 1 Co 10:4) Well, the First and the Last mentioned in Isaiah 48:12 is the He the Father was speaking of.

Conclusion:

Now, go back to Isaiah 45:18 – For thus says YHWH, Who created the heavens, Who is HaElohim, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the YHWH, and there is no other.

HaElohim refers to YHWH and literally expressing 'all of God within YHWH' in His true united tri-nature form. Then next, the last part states clearly no other was involved in creation. He shares not glory with another.

In Exodus 18:11 haelohim is translated as the gods and refers to all the false gods in the verse context. When HaElohim is used to denote YHWH, it refers to his entire state of being – the Divine Trinity - the Godhead - essence mentioned in Rom 1:20 NKJV and Col 2:9 NKJV).

The pronouns US referred to in Gen 1:26 is in reality HaElohim being Himself, functioning as Himself, creating as He did and how He did...

Again this shows the inspiration from God into the bible because no human being could conceive One God in three persons of one divine essence (Father, Son, Holy Spirit found within the name YHWH).
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Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:03 pm**

Please note:

I have been correcting all the strange letterings such as -- “ - ââ‚¬ -— and the like in all the post. I'll finish the corrections soon for a more easy to read understanding...

These letterings were made due to a change during and upgrade of the website a few years ago...
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Posted: **Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:24 am**

Please Look at these verses below - take a deep breath..

Exo 6:2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD (YHWH)
Exo 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but by My name, LORD (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them.
Exo 6:4 "I also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they sojourned.

What does verse three reveal to you?

God was known in all the variations of Elohim and EL to all those that came before Moses time. Interesting, isn't it?

So to say YHWH refers only to the Father in all cases YHWH is used is based on a false assumption each member of the Divine Trinity cannot share the same name. The Patriarchs only knew YHWH as Elohim/EL in Geneisis.

According to tradtition. Moses wrote the first five books of the bible; therefore, his use of YHWH in Genesis was written in hindsight after God revealed his true nature (haElohim-Godhead/essence) to Moses. From that, Moses and those after him knew YHWH as any one member of the Divine Panim of God, either - singularly or in dualness, or even as all three in one being. All three - share and have the same name - YHWH in the OT. To be able to tell which panim (presences) of the Godhead is speaking in the OT. is often clearly identified by pronouns, nouns (El or Elohim) before or after YHWH.

Father is indentifed as YHWH, Jesus is identified as YHWH. Holy Spirit is also identified as YHWH because God is one echaud. Often in the OT, the Father is identified as YHWH ELOHIM (LORD God) so one can understand who is speaking. Almost in every case Malak (word bearing/task doing messenger) YHWH is used in the OT is refers to the preincarnate Jesus. In John 1:1, 14c there was a reason John chose the word WORD - identification. YHWH the Holy Spirit is often referred to in ways that denote, empowerment, births, and noted when the actual tone of voice changes in use of personal pronouns that go along within context of the speaking panim of YHWH or simply as - Ruach YHWH.

The below verse verifies what I have written:

Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: YHWH our Elohim, YHWH is echad (ai-echad)!

Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge

Deuteronomy 6:4

Shema Yisrael, Yehowah, Elohainoo, Yehowah aichod. "Hear, Israel, Jehovah, our God, is one Jehovah."

On this passage the Jews lay great stress; and it is one of the four passages which they write on their phylacteries. On the word Elohim, Simeon ben Joachi says: "Come and see the mystery of the word Elohim. There are three degrees, and each degree is by itself alone, and yet they are all one, and joined together in one, and are not divided from each other."

the Lord: Deut 4:35-36; Deut 5:6; 1Ki 18:21; 2Ki 19:5; 1Ch 29:10, Isa 42:8; Isa 44:6, Isa 44:8; Isa 45:5-6; Jer 10:10-11; Mark 12:29-32; John 17:8; 1Co 8:4-6; 1Ti 2:5

That was in the OT; therefore, as Exo 6:3 reveals - you can rightly say that that before Jesus came, God was only idenfied as Elohim, EL, YHWH in the human forms of human speach. But now that Jesus came, we now know the One God in is full essensce as Father , Son, and Holy Spirit as the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge quoted above brings out.
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Posted: **Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:29 am**

+
Here is a detailed and bit complex lesson on identifying each member of the Divine Trinity. It may take a few readings for the reader to catch on. So Here goes:

Zec 3:1-2, Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" NKJV

This is a powerful Trinitarian proof text. The English Translations of these two verses miss translating the Word Panim in the text. In fact the word 'Before' is the word Panim/Paniym with the prefix Lamed attached which indicates - Before Presence. The word Angel is the Hebrew word Malak which has no prefix or suffix to indicate that 'of the' is properly used in text, and neither does LORD, the Hebrew YHWH. You can omit the -of the - out of the text. When this happens, it is the WORD YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus) is being referred to in the Old Testament text.

Remember prior lessons regarding Malak as referring to any type of word bearing messenger/task doer either human, angelic, or God himself as messenger. Also recall that the Hebrew word Panim/paniym is the word meaning presences/faces. So what you have verse one saying is this:

Zec 3:1, Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before/Panim Malak YHWH, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.

Note that verse two indicates that the angel of the Lord is not an angelic being because the Malak speaking is identified as the LORD (YHWH) speaking in verse two. Then notice the thrice use of YHWH. What you have is the Godhead being revealed and identified in the text:

Zec 3:2 And YHWH said to Satan, "YHWH rebuke you, Satan! YHWH who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" NKJV

Next:

Who is the He being referred too in Zec 3:1? Zec 2:13 helps indentify who the HE is:

Zec 2:13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!"

Again, the word translated –Before- is Hebrew word Panim used denoting before Panim YHWH. Which panim is being referred too? - The Holy Spirit. How do I conclude this? Well, Zec 2:3-4 mentions two Malaks. These Malaks are not angelic beings as one of them says He is YHWH in Zec 2:5. The Lord of Host, refers to the Father. In Chapter two you have Father, Son, Holy Spirit acting in concert leading to Chapter Three (more on chapter two at the end of this lesson) So you have 2:13 connected too 3:1 reading:

Zec 2:13 Be silent, all flesh, before/Panim YHWH (Holy Spirit), for He (preincarnate Christ Jesus) is aroused from His (preincarnate Christ Jesus), holy habitation!" Zec 3:1, Then he (Holy Spirit), showed me Joshua the high priest standing before/Panim Malak YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus), and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.

What does Panim Malak YHWH in verse one do next?

Zec 3:2 And YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus) said to Satan, "YHWH (Holy Spirit) rebuke you, Satan! YHWH (Father) who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" NKJV

Notice that no angelic created being can forgive sins as this Malak did in verses 3 and 4:

Zec 3:3, 4- Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the Malak. 4 He (Malak) spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him." Again he (Malak) said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes."

Zec 3:5 Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the Malak YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus) was standing by.

Notice in John 8:26, 28, 38 and John 12:49, 50 and John 14:10 that Jesus says that he speaks the Father’s words. Therefore notice verses 6 through 8:

Zec 3:6-8 And the Malak YHWH (Jesus) admonished Joshua, saying, 7 "Thus says YHWH of hosts (Father), 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here. 8 'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you--indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

Zec 3:9-10 'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares YHWH of hosts (Father), 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 'In that day,' declares YHWH of hosts (Father), 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'"

End notes and brief on Zechariah Chapter Two:

This may take a few readings. Chapter Two leads into Chapter Three. The only persons present around Joshua the high Priest in Chapter three were Zechariah, a man measuring Jerusalem in chp 2, and YHWH in his tri-natured oneness of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Once you catch on, the majesty of the recorded vision is overwhelming majestic in its imagery presentation of the fullness of YHWH.

Zec 2:8-11 use of third person speech is incredible!

Here is a clue, the phrase Lord of Host (armies) can refer to the entire Godhead, or the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit individually. It is how YHWH of Host speaks in following verses in either first, second, or third person speech that identifies the YHWH of Host being referred too. Let me show you this from Zeh 2:8-9.

Zec 2:8, 9 For thus says the YHWH (preincarnate Son) of hosts: "He (Father) sent Me (Jesus) after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His (the Father’s) eye. 9 For surely I (Jesus) will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that YHWH (Father) of hosts has sent Me (Jesus)

Zec 2:10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I (Jesus) am coming and I (Jesus) will dwell in your midst," says YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus).

Zec 2:11 "Many nations shall be joined to YHWH (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in that day, and they shall become My people. And I (Jesus) will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that YHWH (Father) of hosts has sent Me (Jesus) to you.

Zec 2:12 And YHWH (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem.

Zec 2:13 Be silent, all flesh, before/Panim YHWH (Holy Spirit), for He (Jesus) is aroused from His (Jesus) holy habitation!"

Zec 3:1, Then he (Holy Spirit), showed me-Zechariah) Joshua the high priest standing before/Panim Malak YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus), and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.

Here is the rest of Chapter Two joined with Verses 8-13:

Zec 2:1-2 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, a man with a measuring line in his hand.2 So I said, "Where are you going?" And he said to me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see what is its width and what is its length."

Zec 2:3 And there was the Malak who talked with me, going out; and another Malak was coming out to meet him, 4 who said to him, "Run, speak to this young man, saying: 'Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls, because of the multitude of men and livestock in it.

Zec 2:5-7 For I,' says YHWH (Preincarnate Jesus), 'will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'" 6 "Up, up! Flee from the land of the north," says YHWH (Jesus); "for I have spread you abroad like the four winds of heaven," says YHWH (Holy Spirit). 7 "Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon."

Zec 2:8, 9 For thus says the YHWH (preincarnate Son) of hosts: "He (Father) sent Me (Jesus) after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His (the Father’s) eye. 9 For surely I (Jesus) will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that YHWH (Father) of hosts has sent Me (Jesus)

Zec 2:10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I (Jesus) am coming and I (Jesus) will dwell in your midst," says YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus).

Zec 2:11 "Many nations shall be joined to YHWH (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in that day, and they shall become My people. And I (Jesus) will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that YHWH (Father) of hosts has sent Me (Jesus) to you.

Zec 2:12 And YHWH (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem.

Zec 2:13 Be silent, all flesh, before/Panim YHWH (Holy Spirit), for He (Jesus) is aroused from His (Jesus) holy habitation!"

Zec 3:1, Then he (Holy Spirit), showed me-Zechariah) Joshua the high priest standing before/Panim Malak YHWH (the preincarnate Christ Jesus), and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.

Here is the above text from the NASB in Full – note the third person speech in 2:8-9

Zec 2:1 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his hand.

Zec 2:2 So I said, "Where are you going?" And he said to me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is."

Zec 2:3 And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him,

Zec 2:4 and said to him, "Run, speak to that young man, saying, 'Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the multitude of men and cattle within it.

Zec 2:5 'For I,' declares the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'"

Zec 2:6 "Ho there! Flee from the land of the north," declares the LORD, "for I have dispersed you as the four winds of the heavens," declares the LORD.

Zec 2:7 "Ho, Zion! Escape, you who are living with the daughter of Babylon."

Zec 2:8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.

Zec 2:9 "For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.

Zec 2:10 "Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the LORD.

Zec 2:11 "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

Zec 2:12 "The LORD will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.

Zec 2:13 "Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD; for He is aroused from His holy habitation."

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Zec 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Zec 3:2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"

Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.

Zec 3:4 He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him." Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes."

Zec 3:5 Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.

Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying,

Zec 3:7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.

Zec 3:8 'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you--indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

Zec 3:9 'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zec 3:10 'In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'"

Evidence for God from Science

The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God