Creationist Explanation for Bigfoot, Lochness, etc

[PaulSacramento]

Some people believe that the aliens of today are nothing but fallen angels masquerading in a way that "modern man" accepts more readily than the angelic beings that ancient man was more "comfortable" with.

[Philip]

Here are several excellent CHRISTIAN sources related to UFOs / aliens / various mysterious phenomena:

In Hugh Ross' excellent book, "Lights in the Sky & Little Green Men: A Rational Christian Look at UFOs and Extraterrestrials," (http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Sky-Little ... 1576832082)he also agrees that a certain portion of alien and UFO reports are likely demonic in their origins. And he thinks certain people - especially those immersed in or flirting with occultic materials or activities - are far more likely to experience such (makes sense).

Another excellent and well researched / heavily footnoted book, written from a Christian perspective, investigates UFOs, strange phenomena and alien abductions / contactees - with a fascinating look at case histories, how they connect with the occult, New Age, etc, and how many later escaped through belief in and through the power of Christ, is: "UFOs in the New Age / Extraterrestrial Messages and the Truth of Scripture" by William M. Alnor (http://www.amazon.com/Ufos-New-Age-Extr ... m+M.+Alnor). Believe me, you won't laugh at ALL UFO alien abduction stories after reading this book.

Couple of great comments / observations in Alnor's book:
"The Bible tells us that when he (the devil) was cast down out of heaven, he took with him one-third of the host of heaven (Revelation 12;4). These powerful beings "disguise themselves as servants of righteousness" the way "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14 - 15). They are in open rebellion against God and are trying to recruit as many people as they can into their uprising. Through the years their message remains the same, but they change their methods, using powerful, lying signs and wonders to draw people away from God. They are from the realm of darkness and the occult. They have the power to interject into our minds evil thoughts. They have been linked to poltergeist activity, ghosts, fairies, strange knocks in the night - the same things UFOs are linked to. They are dangerous!"

Alnor also states about those obsessed with various mysterious phenomena: "I call this intrigue tail chasing. It's part of the UFOnauts plan to keep us tied up focusing on intrigue, wasting our lives until we have no more time left. The longer one makes a commitment to UFO research, the closer he or she is to dying and giving the God who made the planets an account of his life. It is a sin to waste time on unprofitable things. Jesus said, "As long as it is day, we must do the work of Him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work" (John 9:4).

And so a key demonic strategy is to keep our focus away from God and Jesus, to fill it up with "intrigue tail chasing" of strange phenomena.

Another important conservative Christian researcher, academic/Biblical scholar and expert in many ancient and Biblical languages, who has intensely studied and debunked many UFO reports, is Michael Heiser. He has intensely studied government documents and the entire supposed alien / Roswell events. See Mike's fascinating archives and posts here: http://michaelsheiser.com/UFOReligions/about/ Mike has powerfully refuted the ancient astronauts / purported Biblical stories of aliens. He's long turned an academic's eye and scholarly approach to the alien abduction phenomena.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Some people believe that the aliens of today are nothing but fallen angels masquerading in a way that "modern man" accepts more readily than the angelic beings that ancient man was more "comfortable" with.

Here are several excellent CHRISTIAN sources related to UFOs / aliens / various mysterious phenomena:

I was under the impression that this thread was a spoof.

Why would Bigfoot, UFOs & alien abductions have any credibility as ''fallen angels'' poking in-and-out of view, just to tantalize us? You guys are grasping at phantoms of your own imaginings, just like the atheists and the New Agers who suck this BS up as if it were possible. In a similar vein are the Prosperity Gospel and its secular counterpart, Positive Thinking: absolute bunk.

You are the spiritual cousins of those who say that such things must exist. Beware!

FL

[Philip]

Furstentum Liechtenstein, have you read any of these books? Have you seen the research and documentation? Have you compared the observations within to Scripture's teachings? Do you doubt the demonic's ability to deceive? I am not referencing "MonsterQuest" or "Searching For Bigfoot" or "Ancient Aliens" or such tabloid, pop culture garbage. These are very serious books written with copious, documentation and research, and are written from a Christian perspective. They are not predictive or warping into prophetic fantasy and conjecture (per a Hal Lindsay), or filled with End Times speculation babble. But your comments show that you are woefully ignorant of the content I've posted.

And if you understood that many long-time, organized UFO and contactee organizations (some of them around since the 1950s, most of them in Europe) have definitive theologies that they have blended with a mix of Scripture and New Age teachings, and of what they say their experiences have been and what messages they have long been receiving, you might just change your mind. If you knew of the testimony of Christians who were involved in these cults and what they experienced and saw, you might just be surprised. Does Hugh Ross sound like a guy who is deluded enough to fall for easily dismissed sci-fi fantasies? Not likely!

I'm not trying to be rude, but until you investigate the contents within these books, you clearly are speaking from an uninformed position. The devil and his cohorts have many tools in their tool kit, why wouldn't they take advantage of phenomena that the culture is already pre-conditioned to embrace? All of the authors referenced would say that the cases of any authentic happenings / appearances / contacts are a very small percentage of those actually reported, but that it is in this small percentage that some very disturbing and evil things are occurring. Further they would dismiss the vast majority of reports of various phenomena. Michael Heiser, an evangelical Christian and academic (see his credentials here: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/MHeiserCV.pdf), says that this smaller percentage of compelling cases has a range of possible explanations, only one of which is cases of demonic origins. See a bit about him FAQs directed at him here: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/FAQ.html But as to what he has documented he says we would be foolish to easily dismiss its implications. And he almost exclusively reviews peer-reviewed research and documentation of such events and experiences.

[neo-x]

Furstentum Liechtenstein, have you read any of these books?

FL is right IMO, for a ufo to enter into our atmosphere, it needs to burn first when it approaches Earth. The friction would be the same as man made ship and our satellites and radars would pick up the heat signature if nothing else. But the findings would be same across the board. It can not conflict. If it does something is wrong.

[Philip]

Neo, please read my posts more carefully. I do not believe in ACTUAL aliens or that any such beings have or are visiting us. If people are seeing things that APPEAR to be such, then they are either seeing some natural phenomena that have a natural or unknown explanation or they are seeing something metaphysical. I believe that the physics and distances alone refute that actual, physical aliens - IF they existed - could have ever visited us, much less frequently as popular TV shows would assert. And no matter how fast a speed any alien technology could achieve, it still wouldn't solve the problems. In fact, being able to travel incredibly fast (nearing speed of light - or even extraordinarily fast but considerably slower than that) only makes the distance problems worse and catastrophically dangerous: http://www.reasons.org/articles/aliens- ... from-there

[PaulSacramento]

One of the theories is that ( and I don't think this applies to bigfoot, LOL), the fallen angels have always appeared to Humans and while in the past they passed themselves off as gods ( to cultures that were receptive of gods like the Incans, Mayans, etc), with the decrease in belief in multiple gods they began to pass themselves off as "something else", sometimes as "friendly spirits", other times a ghost or things like that and, most recently, as "aliens" since it seems that humans can be more willing to accept "alien visitations" as opposed to "angelic visitations".
Some say that the cultural influences are what make people "describe" the events they see in a certain way ( ancient culture was conditoned to see gods and that is what they saw, our modern culture is conditioned to see aliens).

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Furstentum Liechtenstein, have you read any of these books? ...

I'm not trying to be rude, but until you investigate the contents within these books, you clearly are speaking from an uninformed position.

I have a book in my library entitled, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian James. It is a thick, scholarly book and when I read it 30 or 35 years ago, it impressed me. To the atheist that I was, James' book offered an intelligent hypothesis for the origin of gods and the religious experience in humankind.

Unfortunately, I now understand that The Origin of Consciousness is just a load of garbage. A great big pile of garbage. So, to answer your question, No! I have not read the books you suggested, nor will I. Some ideas are so preposterous that they don't merit my time.

Of course, if I ever find myself witnessing to wide-eyed UFO space-cadets, maybe I'll pick up one of your books to read...maybe...perhaps...I'm not sure.

FL

[Philip]

I now understand that The Origin of Consciousness is just a load of garbage.

And so you read one book, that you later realized was garbage, and thus you now deem all books you know nothing about to be garbage as well. Yeah, that's great logic.

So, to answer your question, No! I have not read the books you suggested, nor will I. Some ideas are so preposterous that they don't merit my time.

Meaning you remain ignorant to the contents and research by authors that are well respected in the evangelical Christian community. So it's bunk and yet you don't even know what is asserted in the books? Wow!

I am not a person who sees Satan behind every dark corner. Most things have rational explanations and very few don't. But what ideas are preposterous? That the demonic can take on many deceptive forms? That Satan and demons desire to delude and fool people by any means they can? That one way they attempt to keep us from God may well be to make their deceptions appear authentic, so that many will be continuously obsessed with chasing various strange phenomena? As soon as one believes he is actually communicating with "ghosts, the dead, or some alien entity" - and believes they are actually what they appear to be and what they saythey are, how long will it be before many such deluded and deceived individuals also begin to believe what such an entity is actually telling them? Isn't that what Scripture teaches us, of the power of Satan and his intentions to deceive in many various ways?

Bigfoot, a total and laughable fiction, may be VERY RARELY counterfeited as well (maybe yes, maybe no), with the intention merely to bring people into a pointless and distracting obsession that will turn their attention from seeking or paying attention to God. I'm much more wary of people who say they are in communication with unknown entities (that they THINK they know), especially as such people are involved in cults and occult practices. As well, those believing ghosts are the dead, caught in some in-between state, will also fail to believe what the Bible says about what happens when one dies. And so the real questions are, what abilities to deceive does Satan and demons have and why would they not exploit such abilities. I think we need to have a healthy respect for that we don't understand or know about.

Anyway, Rich Deem would appear to agree that Satan and the demonic can do quite incredible things: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/e ... nakes.html (Especially read the "References" section at the bottom of the linked page)

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Philip, Philip, Philip...

Calm down! RELAX! None of this is important in any way! I appreciate that you think I'm some sort of ignoramus spouting my opinion about something I know nothing about.

As far as the following concerned,

Meaning you remain ignorant to the contents and research by authors that are well respected in the evangelical Christian community. So it's bunk and yet you don't even know what is asserted in the books? Wow!

...you must be aware that ''research by authors that are well respected in the evangelical Christian community'' has also produced things like British Israelism, the Prosperity Gospel, Seed Faith and other quasi-heresies. I'm sure you know that well-meaning people can misinterpret the Bible to have it confirm their fanciful ideas.

There is no need for me to read a book claiming that ''fallen angels'' are responsible for paranormal phenomena. Ultimately, our rejection of God has created this notion and all the looney ideas I mentioned above.

I think it is unfortunate that in this age of great knowledge and technology, we are more than ever slaves to irrationality, to thinking trees have spirits, to thinking the Earth is a living creature, to thinking that if we all act together we can make a difference. Ha! how foolish!

Even in the Christian community, many of us see demons lurking all around. Sorry, I don't buy that. The Bible says that I am responsible for my sin (James 1:15), I and no one else.

Carry on. Watch for Demons out there in the woods at night!

FL

[Philip]

FL, I am quite calm - and quite rational. And quite responsible for my own sin. Again, I think phenomena tied to the demonic is rare, that, by far, most mysterious things have rational explanations. But that has nothing to do with the power of Satan and the demonic, which Scripture both attests to and warns us of their great power to deceive, as it teaches, that "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places."

FL, I'm not trying to pick a fight or be difficult, but I am dismayed at your faith in your own rational discernment, as you appear to not take seriously what Scripture says about the powers of Satan and demons and their abilities to deceive and counterfeit. You quickly dismiss the evidence without even looking into it - evidence which, by the way, is 1) convincing and 2) lines up with what Scripture says.

The Bible says that Satan transformed himself into a serpent, entered Judas, his followers were able to enter pigs and people, demonic power counterfeited the miracle of Aaron's staff, making their own staffs turn into a serpent, demonic power gave the demoniac superhuman strength. To some lesser degree, the Egyptian magicians were able to counterfeit a couple of the miracles of God (blooded waters, frogs upon the land, in Exod. 7:22; 8:7). In Acts, the slave girl had the power of divination. And so while we're told that Satan, demons and dark forces have great powers and are ever scheming to deceive, we're just not told the specifics and extent of their capabilities. We do see that at some point Satan's ability to deceive will be astounding.

I would say, however, that true Christians are far less likely to encounter or experience such demonic deceptions/mysterious phenomena, but that non believers - especially those immersed in the occult - are those most likely to both experience such and also to be deceived. We just don't know the extent of their capabilities, but we are strongly warned and told: They have great power that we are to respect and be constantly on guard against such deceptions, and that these things are hidden from our rational discernment, as our normal senses cannot always or easily detect them, as their sources are "spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." This also tells me that if you think the demonic cannot use powerful metaphysical deceptions, then you do not believe what Scripture says about them, nor do you respect their power to deceive. These are not my observations, but those found in Scripture. And what the books I referenced reveal is well-researched data and evidences that line up with what Scripture has already warned us against. And so to dismiss these outright, without investigating credible Christian sources on them, committing Ad Hominem attacks against the authors, is to also dismiss what Scripture has warned us against. And, again, do you really think someone like Hugh Ross, perhaps the ultimate Christian rationalist, would put out a book that would make a mockery of all of the rational scientific analysis that he has committed his life and countless books and essays to? That's basically what you are asserting, even without investigating the claims within.

OK, I've said more than enough, only in desire to expose others to important sources on this issue.

Blessings.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Again, I think phenomena tied to the demonic is rare, that, by far, most mysterious things have rational explanations. But that has nothing to do with the power of Satan and the demonic, which Scripture both attests to and warns us of their great power to deceive, as it teaches, that "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places."

I agree.

...I am dismayed at your faith in your own rational discernment, as you appear to not take seriously what Scripture says about the powers of Satan and demons and their abilities to deceive and counterfeit. You quickly dismiss the evidence without even looking into it - evidence which, by the way, is 1) convincing and 2) lines up with what Scripture says.

You jump to conclusions too quickly! I take seriously what Scripture says about the demonic powers that influence the world in which we live. As for the ''evidence'' you have suggested, well...such Bible-based ''evidence'' has also been provided for a number of far-fetched ideas which I have already spoken of. Some intelligent guy with a string-of-letters-after-his-name writing a book isn't evidence, sorry. Commentaries of the Bible help us understand it. Someone with an axe to grind - or a theory to prove - isn't helping me understand the Bible.

The Bible says that Satan transformed himself into a serpent, entered Judas, his followers were able to enter pigs and people, demonic power counterfeited the miracle of Aaron's staff, making their own staffs turn into a serpent, demonic power gave the demoniac superhuman strength. To some lesser degree, the Egyptian magicians were able to counterfeit a couple of the miracles of God (blooded waters, frogs upon the land, in Exod. 7:22; 8:7). In Acts, the slave girl had the power of divination. And so while we're told that Satan, demons and dark forces have great powers and are ever scheming to deceive, we're just not told the specifics and extent of their capabilities. We do see that at some point Satan's ability to deceive will be astounding.

All of what you wrote is in the Bible, so of course it is true...but it is quite a stretch to apply this to UFOs and Bigfoot.

I would say, however, that true Christians are far less likely to encounter or experience such demonic deceptions/mysterious phenomena, but that non believers - especially those immersed in the occult - are those most likely to both experience such and also to be deceived.

Non-believers, by their very nature are immersed in unpardoned sin. Ivellious, if he were to die today, is going to hell. Ditto for MAGSolo! If an unbeliever dies in his sin, he's in hell, period. If he's a ''good'' Buddhist, he's in hell; if he's an axe-murderer, he's in hell, and if he's an un-saved Christian, he's in hell.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make with your UFO books by Christians. The Bible is clear: if you are an unbeliever at death, you go to hell, An unbeliever who has chosen to reject the God of the Bible is toast, period. It isn't the fault of demons and their magic, it isn't the fault of demons impersonating paranormal phenomena. The fault is on the person who rejected God and believed Satan.

Listen...we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am getting the distinct impression that our chat is like a YEC/OEC disagreement, or a KJV-Onliest/Any-Version-Will-Do discussions. Such debates are sterile and serve only to regress the cause of Christ. If UFO aficionados are your ministry, fine. You can have them! God has given me different people to work with.

FL

[Philip]

Listen...we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am getting the distinct impression that our chat is like a YEC/OEC disagreement, or a KJV-Onliest/Any-Version-Will-Do discussions. Such debates are sterile and serve only to regress the cause of Christ. If UFO aficionados are your ministry, fine. You can have them! God has given me different people to work with.

FL, yes, we can agree to that. But you don't even know what you are arguing against - at least when it comes to UFO cults, contactees, their supernatual experiences, and and the ministries that have reached out to those in them and their observations of what their rescued and still suffering victims are telling the leaders of such ministries. Again, such authentic cases would appear to be relatively rare. But they're not my ministry or in my experience either. And unlikely ever will be. And very few would be qualified to help such people. The Bible tells us there are spirits of evil - and there are also many who try to contact the dead and say they talk to them frequently. While certainly NONE are actually talking to the dead, but a some may well be in actual communication with evil entities that they have been deceived to THINK are actually the dead. But is this the case for ALL such claims? Clearly not!

Bigfoot certainly does not exist - but my point about that is merely that the demonic can no doubt use various odd phenomena to keep people obsessed over it - which will keep their focus far from seeking God. Now, most into Bigfoot are obviously just deluded and naive. Maybe all are - as with that phenomena, I do not know. But some pretty upright citizens, law enforcement officers, and other professionals have reported very close encounters. Are they ALL just mistaken, or have they actually seen some deception? I don't know. But what I think IS naive, is to dismiss specific popular mysterious pursuits and beliefs that the demonic and Satan might well be exploiting. To say they can do this but not that, can deceive only in this way or with that way - well, how do you KNOW when we've not been informed about such specifics? Why WOULDN'T they attempt to use any thing, belief or pop-culture mystery that they can leverage, and that the masses are already well primed to want to believe in, so as to spiritually destroy and deceive ? Look at just how popular TV shows and movies about the occult and UFOs are. U.S. News & World Report states that "Thirty-six percent of Americans think aliens have visited Earth, and almost 80 percent believe the government has kept information about UFOs." Think Satan ignores the usefulness of such beliefs? Why would you think so?

No, this debate is not about a pointless discussion, like the YEC vs. OEC so often is (I don't really care how LONG God took to create the universe, I merely find it much more important that He actually did so. THIS mysterious phenomenon debate is about what we should be watching out for that Satan and his cohorts might use to mislead, deceive or harm ourselves or others - and that is anything but pointless. Yes, there are tons of false reports and fakes of just about everything we ever heard of. But there are also credible, qualified sources that have carefully scrutinized copious amounts of data and have done and documented extensive research findings. With such unique sources, I'm open minded enough to at least read and listen to what they have to say. Satan and demons undoubtedly have great power to deceive, and in a wide variety of ways. But I'll never know what the truth about how they may have done so until I at least examine the evidence for it. And a portion of what I've read, from key Christian sources, I've found quite compelling. And yet, with MOST sources addressing this issue, they are fully of bunk and B.S., all merely and cleverly designed to sell books or build TV ratings.

Enough!

[RickD]

Listen...we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am getting the distinct impression that our chat is like a YEC/OEC disagreement, or a KJV-Onliest/Any-Version-Will-Do discussions. Such debates are sterile and serve only to regress the cause of Christ. If UFO aficionados are your ministry, fine. You can have them! God has given me different people to work with.

FL, yes, we can agree to that. But you don't even know what you are arguing against - at least when it comes to UFO cults, contactees, their supernatual experiences, and and the ministries that have reached out to those in them and their observations of what their rescued and still suffering victims are telling the leaders of such ministries. Again, such authentic cases would appear to be relatively rare. But they're not my ministry or in my experience either. And unlikely ever will be. And very few would be qualified to help such people. The Bible tells us there are spirits of evil - and there are also many who try to contact the dead and say they talk to them frequently. While certainly NONE are actually talking to the dead, but a some may well be in actual communication with evil entities that they have been deceived to THINK are actually the dead. But is this the case for ALL such claims? Clearly not!

Bigfoot certainly does not exist - but my point about that is merely that the demonic can no doubt use various odd phenomena to keep people obsessed over it - which will keep their focus far from seeking God. Now, most into Bigfoot are obviously just deluded and naive. Maybe all are - as with that phenomena, I do not know. But some pretty upright citizens, law enforcement officers, and other professionals have reported very close encounters. Are they ALL just mistaken, or have they actually seen some deception? I don't know. But what I think IS naive, is to dismiss specific popular mysterious pursuits and beliefs that the demonic and Satan might well be exploiting. To say they can do this but not that, can deceive only in this way or with that way - well, how do you KNOW when we've not been informed about such specifics? Why WOULDN'T they attempt to use any thing, belief or pop-culture mystery that they can leverage, and that the masses are already well primed to want to believe in, so as to spiritually destroy and deceive ? Look at just how popular TV shows and movies about the occult and UFOs are. U.S. News & World Report states that "Thirty-six percent of Americans think aliens have visited Earth, and almost 80 percent believe the government has kept information about UFOs." Think Satan ignores the usefulness of such beliefs? Why would you think so?

No, this debate is not about a pointless discussion, like the YEC vs. OEC so often is (I don't really care how LONG God took to create the universe, I merely find it much more important that He actually did so. THIS mysterious phenomenon debate is about what we should be watching out for that Satan and his cohorts might use to mislead, deceive or harm ourselves or others - and that is anything but pointless. Yes, there are tons of false reports and fakes of just about everything we ever heard of. But there are also credible, qualified sources that have carefully scrutinized copious amounts of data and have done and documented extensive research findings. With such unique sources, I'm open minded enough to at least read and listen to what they have to say. Satan and demons undoubtedly have great power to deceive, and in a wide variety of ways. But I'll never know what the truth about how they may have done so until I at least examine the evidence for it. And a portion of what I've read, from key Christian sources, I've found quite compelling. And yet, with MOST sources addressing this issue, they are fully of bunk and B.S., all merely and cleverly designed to sell books or build TV ratings.

Enough!

Philip, I was looking for the "like this post" icon. But since we don't have one, this will do:

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

...you don't even know what you are arguing against - at least when it comes to UFO cults, contactees, their supernatual expériences...

I've told you earlier that you tend to jump to conclusions, and I'll say it again: you've jumped to another conclusion above, again!. If you do a search of the word ''Rael'' on this site*, you'll find some of my posts where I speak of a family friend who is in the Raelian cult.

http://www.rael.org

Raelians are a bunch of atheist fruitcakes who think all the world's prophets live on a planet circling Sirius. There are regular flying saucer journeys from earth to this planet. His Magnificent Holiness Rael - in Person - has often made the trip. His Magnificent Holiness Rael has His planet earth-based compound about 70 nautical miles from the airport I fly out of on pleasure flights.

Now, the family friend is a RN, a woman with a university degree. From what I've read, and from what she's told me, most Raelians are professionals. Her current boyfriend (also a Raelian) is a medical doctor. Her previous boyfriend (also Raelian) had some degree in marketing. Wrap your mind around that!

This demon-behind-the-flying-saucer discussion is one I find irrelevant. Sorry.

FL

*This site, God and Science