How do we come to believe or not believe certain things? Through experience and learning. Those experiences may give us wrong beliefs and we may learn incorrect information, but they form our beliefs none the less. I've held some terrible beliefs during my life that have shaped my whole way of living. And I am glad to be rid of many of them.
Now, If I currently did not believe in God but wanted to, or I wanted to know that my denial of Chirstianity was correct how would I go about this? Experience! I would try attending a church, maybe more than once, maybe more than one church. I would talk to the pastor too. I would try reading the bible, try praying, try talking to Christians etc. All the time with a mind that was willing to have the beliefs I had formed so far be discarded or changed. Basically an experiment then, but one where you are willing to accept the outcome, not one where you are trying to make the data fit your own hypothesis. If, at the end of it all, you still believe that God doesn't exist then at least you really gave it a go. Of course, you may very well come to believe as part of your journey - which is the scary thing!
Belief a Choice?
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jlay
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Re: Belief a Choice?
Keefy,
That is essentially Lee Strobel's testimony. He set out to investigate the claims of Christianity, from a journalistic perspective, and came to faith in Christ.
That is essentially Lee Strobel's testimony. He set out to investigate the claims of Christianity, from a journalistic perspective, and came to faith in Christ.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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B. W.
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Re: Belief a Choice?
Rstrats, here are a few questions for you to ponder...rstrats wrote:...What do you do that would allow you to say: “Okay, I have obtained information about “X” and while I still do not believe that “X” exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that “X” exists and - poof - I now believe that “X” exists? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don't already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?
I don't think that it can be done, but if it can I would really like to know how.
Do you believe what your teachers taught you?
How did you learn your above stated quotes of logic?
Do you belive in yourself?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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rstrats
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Re: Belief a Choice?
cslewislover,
re: “I ALREADY had the choice. I made my choice in the past.”
And now I'm asking you to choose the other option. If you can't, then there was only one possibility for you and thus you had no choice.
re: “What two options DON'T you have?”
I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to.
re: “I'm beginning to wonder if your concern is more about the number of choices available, and not really 'how' we make a choice (?).”
Again, I don't know what you mean.
re: “I ALREADY had the choice. I made my choice in the past.”
And now I'm asking you to choose the other option. If you can't, then there was only one possibility for you and thus you had no choice.
re: “What two options DON'T you have?”
I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to.
re: “I'm beginning to wonder if your concern is more about the number of choices available, and not really 'how' we make a choice (?).”
Again, I don't know what you mean.
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cslewislover
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Re: Belief a Choice?
But why ask me that? It makes no sense. Why would I choose a nonsensical option? Now if you gave me new evidence to show me that I was wrong, that leprechauns really do exist, then of course I'd look at that evidence. That's how you do it. No big deal. Your thinking that there are no choices is very odd; I would have the choice to reconsider based on new evidence. We have the ability to consider Christ (or anyone else, or anything else) and make a choice. Today and tomorrow (as long as one is still living).rstrats wrote:cslewislover,
re: “I ALREADY had the choice. I made my choice in the past.”
And now I'm asking you to choose the other option. If you can't, then there was only one possibility for you and thus you had no choice.
I suspect you do. There is a reason you brought this subject up. Does it seem like there is only one choice in choosing Christ? Because He is the only way? Will it be Heaven or hell? It's kind-of like only one choice; yes or no to the one.re: “What two options DON'T you have?”
I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to.
re: “I'm beginning to wonder if your concern is more about the number of choices available, and not really 'how' we make a choice (?).”
Again, I don't know what you mean.
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rstrats
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Re: Belief a Choice?
jlay,
re: “I am still not grasping what you are talking about in referring to 'choosing' to believe.”
To consciously engender a conviction - without doubt - in one's mind that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true.
re: “You mention compassion. But I think you confuse feeling compassion for being compassionate.”
I don't know where you are getting that from. I've said nothing about the ramifications of compassion.
re: “I am still not grasping what you are talking about in referring to 'choosing' to believe.”
To consciously engender a conviction - without doubt - in one's mind that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true.
re: “You mention compassion. But I think you confuse feeling compassion for being compassionate.”
I don't know where you are getting that from. I've said nothing about the ramifications of compassion.
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rstrats
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Re: Belief a Choice?
cslewislover,
re: “But why ask me that? It makes no sense. Why would I choose a nonsensical option?”
To demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.
re: “Your thinking that there are no choices is very odd...”
If there are two options and it is only possible to believe one of them, then you don't have a choice.
re: “ I suspect you do. “
Your suspicion is incorrect.
re: “There is a reason you brought this subject up.”
Indeed there is. You can find it in the OP.
re: “But why ask me that? It makes no sense. Why would I choose a nonsensical option?”
To demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.
re: “Your thinking that there are no choices is very odd...”
If there are two options and it is only possible to believe one of them, then you don't have a choice.
re: “ I suspect you do. “
Your suspicion is incorrect.
re: “There is a reason you brought this subject up.”
Indeed there is. You can find it in the OP.
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jlay
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Re: Belief a Choice?
Ok. That's not my point either. I am talking about choosing to be compassionate vs. feeling compassionate.I've said nothing about the ramifications of compassion.
I think I discovered a new definition of determinism. Choosing to be stubborn.
Sounds like it is the "consciously part that you are struggling with.To consciously engender a conviction - without doubt - in one's mind that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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rstrats
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Re: Belief a Choice?
jlay,
re: “I am talking about choosing to be compassionate vs. feeling compassionate.”
I don't see what that has to do with an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things?
re: “I think I discovered a new definition of determinism. Choosing to be stubborn.”
How am I being stubborn? I asked a question and have yet to get a positive reply.
re: “Sounds like it is the consciously part that you are struggling with.”
The only struggle I'm having is in getting someone who maintains that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things to demonstrate the ability.
re: “I am talking about choosing to be compassionate vs. feeling compassionate.”
I don't see what that has to do with an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things?
re: “I think I discovered a new definition of determinism. Choosing to be stubborn.”
How am I being stubborn? I asked a question and have yet to get a positive reply.
re: “Sounds like it is the consciously part that you are struggling with.”
The only struggle I'm having is in getting someone who maintains that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things to demonstrate the ability.
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jlay
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Re: Belief a Choice?
I actually think there have been examples, but you are determined to ignore them.
I remember very clearly the day I chose to follow Christ. It wasn't a flippant "i guess I'll beleive" response like you mentioned earlier. But it was a choice very clearly.
It seems to me that you have made a choice to believe that you can not choose what you beleive.
I will conceed that much of what we may choose to believe goes on just beneath the conscience. That is why I singled out that word. There are small affirmations (choices) and rejections (choices) that we make as we intake information, and our conscience processes it. In many cases it is not as if we gather all this information and then we sit down and go "OK, now I'll decide." I think it is more of a process.
But, I can assure you that when I came to Christ, It was a choice. And there were probably hundreds, maybe thousands of small choices along the way, that culminated to that point.
What is your faith position? Are you a follower of Christ?
Billy Graham gave an example. I probably can't do it justice. He spoke of struggles he would have with the scriptures. Then one day he just decided that he would trust the bible 100%. He says his walk changed that day.
I remember very clearly the day I chose to follow Christ. It wasn't a flippant "i guess I'll beleive" response like you mentioned earlier. But it was a choice very clearly.
It seems to me that you have made a choice to believe that you can not choose what you beleive.
I will conceed that much of what we may choose to believe goes on just beneath the conscience. That is why I singled out that word. There are small affirmations (choices) and rejections (choices) that we make as we intake information, and our conscience processes it. In many cases it is not as if we gather all this information and then we sit down and go "OK, now I'll decide." I think it is more of a process.
But, I can assure you that when I came to Christ, It was a choice. And there were probably hundreds, maybe thousands of small choices along the way, that culminated to that point.
What is your faith position? Are you a follower of Christ?
Billy Graham gave an example. I probably can't do it justice. He spoke of struggles he would have with the scriptures. Then one day he just decided that he would trust the bible 100%. He says his walk changed that day.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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rstrats
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Re: Belief a Choice?
jlay,
re: “I actually think there have been examples, but you are determined to ignore them.”
There have not been any realtime demonstrations. That is what I am looking for.
re: “I remember very clearly the day I chose to follow Christ.”
That is an action that you decided to do. It was not a belief. You would first have to have previously believed that the Messiah existed before it could be said that you were legitimately following Him.
re: “It wasn't a flippant 'i guess I'll believe' response like you mentioned earlier.”
That was someone else's post, not mine.
re: “It seems to me that you have made a choice to believe that you can not choose what you beleive.”
Yes, that is what I believe, but I did not arrive at it by consciously CHOOSING the belief.
re: “I will conceed that much of what we may choose to believe goes on just beneath the conscience.”
That is what I've been saying, except that it's “all” and not just “much”. That is what I currently believe. So when someone says that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I have to question them on it because IF it is indeed possible I really would like to learn how it is done.
re: “What is your faith position?”
If you're referring to theology, I currently do not have a belief in a supreme being.
re: “I actually think there have been examples, but you are determined to ignore them.”
There have not been any realtime demonstrations. That is what I am looking for.
re: “I remember very clearly the day I chose to follow Christ.”
That is an action that you decided to do. It was not a belief. You would first have to have previously believed that the Messiah existed before it could be said that you were legitimately following Him.
re: “It wasn't a flippant 'i guess I'll believe' response like you mentioned earlier.”
That was someone else's post, not mine.
re: “It seems to me that you have made a choice to believe that you can not choose what you beleive.”
Yes, that is what I believe, but I did not arrive at it by consciously CHOOSING the belief.
re: “I will conceed that much of what we may choose to believe goes on just beneath the conscience.”
That is what I've been saying, except that it's “all” and not just “much”. That is what I currently believe. So when someone says that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I have to question them on it because IF it is indeed possible I really would like to learn how it is done.
re: “What is your faith position?”
If you're referring to theology, I currently do not have a belief in a supreme being.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Belief a Choice?
It seems to me that given any two options to believe it is always logically possible to believe either one of them.rstrats wrote:re: “Your thinking that there are no choices is very odd...”
If there are two options and it is only possible to believe one of them, then you don't have a choice.
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cslewislover
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Re: Belief a Choice?
So did some space aliens zap it into your mind somehow???? You are not a conscious being, in charge of your own thoughts?rstrats wrote:re: “It seems to me that you have made a choice to believe that you can not choose what you beleive.”
Yes, that is what I believe, but I did not arrive at it by consciously CHOOSING the belief.
If this is the case, then maybe you should be asking us how you can become a conscious being.Below are some things that you said you've chosen to believe. So you already know how to do it, "real time" or no. So why this conversation? Or as I've come to believe in "real time," non-conversation?rstrats wrote:re: “I actually think there have been examples, but you are determined to ignore them.”
There have not been any realtime demonstrations. That is what I am looking for.
rstrats wrote: re: “Please give examples of how you have come to believe in something...”
I would guess that my beliefs have most likely been caused by a process occurring in my subconscious mind due to an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, etc.
re: “ Can you give examples? “
A few would be: That the print and broadcast media is mostly liberal, that the earth orbits the sun, that the Ford Ranger is more reliable than the Chevy S10, that chili shouldn't have beans in it, that my dad loves me, that leprechauns do not exist, that scripture doesn't teach eternal torment, that my car will start the next time I turn the key, that doctrine outside of scripture is invalid, that U.S. border security should be improved, that beliefs can not be consciously CHOSEN.
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rstrats
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Re: Belief a Choice?
Kurieuo,
re: “It seems to me that given any two options to believe it is always logically possible to believe either one of them.”
Absolutely true. If one of the options can't be chosen, then there is no choice involved.
re: “It seems to me that given any two options to believe it is always logically possible to believe either one of them.”
Absolutely true. If one of the options can't be chosen, then there is no choice involved.
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rstrats
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Re: Belief a Choice?
rstrats,
re: “So did some space aliens zap it into your mind somehow????”
I would say that that is highly unlikely. I said in an earlier post that I would guess that my beliefs have most likely been caused by a process occurring in my subconscious mind due to an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, etc.
re: “Below are some things that you said you've chosen to believe. “
I never said that. If you think I have, please provide the quote.
re: “So did some space aliens zap it into your mind somehow????”
I would say that that is highly unlikely. I said in an earlier post that I would guess that my beliefs have most likely been caused by a process occurring in my subconscious mind due to an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, etc.
re: “Below are some things that you said you've chosen to believe. “
I never said that. If you think I have, please provide the quote.