Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:so Starhunter, from what I gather, you are saying, is that Jesus is a false prophet for mentioning the absolute importance of avoiding hell?

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Did you read the last sentence?

My guess would be that hell and everything in it would be destroyed in the lake of fire. Is that what you're saying Starhunter?

RickD wrote:My guess would be that hell and everything in it would be destroyed in the lake of fire. Is that what you're saying Starhunter?

Yes,

The whole topic is too painful...I have not been able to come to terms with it, despite that there will be no unlimited pain for the wicked, despite that it is very equal, and justly balanced with what suffering they caused on others, despite that the majority, after experiencing the truth of rejecting love, will be burned with absolutely no time and thought to spare,

but others who tortured and manipulated others, rejecting plea after plea to repent in their lifetime, will have to endure the pain of rejection, abandonment, and physical fire equal to the pain put onto the innocent, and onto the heart of God, Who does not have a cut off point for pain as His creatures do! And how intense and long, has been His suffering, having to grant liberty to the most vile men, so that they too might be given an equal chance to repent. We have no idea.

But then to hear that He will torture them indefinitely, fully feeling their pain! Forever!!! What a misrepresentation!
It's not even justice.

God is merciful, and will not allow someone into heaven who cannot stand to be there, who after some time would realize that their addiction to sin will be torture to them, if it continued for ever.

In mercy He puts them out, no more consciousness, never to be, nothing.

Will He remember them? Will He remember the millions of opportunities and protections sent them by His angels?

In the day of judgement preceding the fire, no one will be able to say, "salvation was not given to me,"

because everyone is judged according to their circumstance, and their responses to opportunity/love/conscience, etc

Only "thine own mouth will justify or condemn thee..."

The good news is, not a single person, no matter how forgotten, nameless and obscure, how lost and confused, will miss out on heaven, if they had an ounce of hope in love and truth.

Starhunter,

Thank you for clarifying your position more. I had trouble following your line of reasoning earlier as you seemed to be saying contradictory things. Sorry about misunderstanding you, so please forgive me on that note.

Also, please realize that God is not torturing anyone in hell. I suggest that you find in your bible specific verses that states that God tortures in hell and present them. You are being swept up in emotionalism. God is not unjust to inflict wrath and that is far different than the idea of torture. The bible makes it plain that the torment belongs to the person, as it is their own torment tormenting them. In fact in Luke 16:19-31 you do not see God anywhere torturing, do you? The man mentioned in the text is based on truth - fact, not poking fun of the religious leaders in some obscure way to a select few made proud by such secret inside knowledge. He was afflicted based on sowing and reaping.

The Bible teaches that God's wrath exposes the true nature of the human heart and mets out what one's conduct in life actually deserves on just scale that is way beyond what our mortal mind can conceive. His wrath uncovers the true person - the real them. This is not a pleasant experience for one to see themselves as they really are, unchecked, unbridled, fully warped and dark as it proves how unredeemable they are beyond all doubt. In the scope of eternity, they will always corrupt seeking to take advantage of God's good character in some form or manner. Enough is enough - for God.

Next, as for the lake of fire being literal or not, let's look at this more as it might help you come to terms with what it means. The use of fire is often used as a metaphor and in that you must take the Lake of Fire of the future. In fact the bible uses fire as a metaphor when James writes that the tongue sets the world on fire and that things that consume one is liken to a fire consuming: James 3:5,6 and James 5:3. Hebrews 1:7 says that his ministers will be flames of fire. In Luke 3:16 John the Baptist said of Jesus he would baptize with fire. Proverbs 16:27 mentions words are like scorching fire. 1 Co 7:9 states about burning with passion. Anger is said to smolder producing smoke too, yet, these are figurative. With that, the lake of fire is represented by fire of an unspecified form and type. With that, one can come to his /her own conclusion on the matter if it is literal fire we know of or something that only God knows of...

In fact Jeremiah 17:4 sets forth the principle that it is people who kindle the fire of God's anger - forever - and that means his wrath is not temporary. Please note the context of Jeremiah cited from the NASB below:

Jer 17:1-5, "The sin of Judah is written down with an iron stylus; With a diamond point it is engraved upon the tablet of their heart And on the horns of their altars, 2 As they remember their children, So they remember their altars and their Asherim By green trees on the high hills. 3 O mountain of Mine in the countryside, I will give over your wealth and all your treasures for booty, Your high places for sin throughout your borders. 4 And you will, even of yourself, let go of your inheritance That I gave you; And I will make you serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger Which will burn forever. 5 Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD."

The principle is clear that it is the act of folks who turn against the Lord that kindles God's wrath like a fire which will burn forever. Why - well keep reading...

Jer 17:9-13, "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? 10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds. "As a partridge that hatches eggs which it has not laid, So is he who makes a fortune, but unjustly; In the midst of his days it will forsake him, And in the end he will be a fool." 12 A glorious throne on high from the beginning Is the place of our sanctuary. 13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD. "

It is people who forsake the Lord and now read the next verse..

Jer 17:1, Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; Save me and I will be saved, For You are my praise." NASB

Does not the bible say whosoever calls on his name will be saved? They will be saved from forsaking the Lord and experience his eternal wrath. This only occurs in this life. Not in the hereafter. So it is important to to preach the gospel to the lost as many do not realize how they have forsaken the Lord. When the Lord says himself his wrath burns forever - it is him - not me - not paganism saying it, It is him.

John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NASB

It might appease our feelings and emotions to think God will not inflict wrath, or that such wrath is temporary, but it does not escape the fact that what God does as it pertains to his just character is forever, as the context of Eccl 3:11, 14, 17 highlights. You see, God is slow to anger for a reason and purpose. Since he is slow in this, people go about justifying forsaking God, even use the item of hell as such an excuse. Or use the human definition of evil so as to claim they are not. What then is Evil the Hebrew word ra or ra'ah (evil) mean and the Greek too? It means the warping and twisting good into ones own advantage such as moral and ethical twisting for ones advantage over others or God. It also means, evil in the purest sense of the word too as well as worthless or bad. The context which the word is used sheds light on the meaning applied in a verse. Look at the example below...as it applies to a sinner. The Hebrew word used for sinner means - one who misses the mark - twist off course...

Eccl 8:11-13, "Because the sentence against an evil ( a bad) deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil (moral and ethical twisting). 12 Although a sinner (one who twist off course) does evil (moral and ethical twisting) a hundred times and may lengthen his life, still I know that it will be well for those who fear (respect) God, who fear Him openly. 13 But it will not be well for the evil (Morally twisting) man and he will not lengthen his days like a shadow, because he does not (respect) fear God." NASB

The subject of Hell is not pleasant so be aware of using it to keep away from God, or making a god into the image and likeness of appeasement according to human sensibilities, or else one can't respect him so reject him. God has his reasons for doing things his way and in that, you can trust. Be the salt and light to the world and help save the lost as they know not what they are doing. God is slow to wrath, in that is great goodness - people take advantage of. God is not mocked. What a person sows they will reap.

Job 34:10-12, "So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 He repays everyone for what they have done; he brings on them what their conduct deserves. 12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice." NIV

In that, trust, and leave the rest to God...
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You've probably posted similar material, which I did not read, but I get where you are coming from and like it, for the necessary justice,

But once justice is met, it is met. An eternal punishment cannot be justified for temporary sin. That is not justice, it then becomes a form of sadistic gratification.

God deliberated in providing a plan for saving man, because of the unnecessary suffering in this world because of sin and its consequences, how much less will He allow them continuous suffering when life has already been hard enough to them.

The purpose of their destruction has to do with their unfitness for heaven - because if allowed in, fences, alarms and police would be back.

The idea of the wicked not dying, is not really Biblical - from what I read. I am not certain what Gman's version is, but he seems to have a good background in scripture, from the little I have read of his posts.

What you have said is quite deep, with strong points, but when does hell stop?

but when does hell stop?

Personally, through my studies I have a hard time not seeing a 'final' end with evil creatures forever after the milllenial rule.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Could not his forever wrath include death forever after the process (hell) of showing why this creature is where they are, to themselves and all?

What do you think of this B.W.?

When we ask ourselves, when does "hell" stop, what are we truly asking?
The torment in Hell ( whatever it may be) is self-imposed.
Those that are in hell are so because they chose to reject God, God who is love is rejected so they reject LOVE,all that is good and right and pure.
Someone that rejects the ultimate love and ultimate relationship has created for themselves the ultimate hell.
How long will that hell last?
We have this as a clue:
Revelation 20
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Satan Bound

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Freed, Doomed

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment at the Throne of God

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The New Heaven and Earth

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements. 18 The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; 20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

What seems to be said is that a fire will come down from heaven and create a lake of fire that burns forever:

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Then we have a second death for those of the second resurrection deemed unworthy according to their deeds and, since they are being thrown into the same lake of fire that is forever, it seems to imply they will suffer like the devil, the beast and false prophet mentioned above:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Just wanted to say thanks for the post Paul, that was a great response to my question ^_^ I"m satisfied.

Starhunter wrote:But once justice is met, it is met. An eternal punishment cannot be justified for temporary sin. That is not justice, it then becomes a form of sadistic gratification.

First, I'd want to lay on the table that for me, I consider it somewhat uncertain territory to enter into talk of spiritual matters re: the afterlife.

I'd argue the things the matter most are made clear to us in Scripture. And importance is placed on coming to God in this life via Christ.

It seems to me that after this life, perhaps due to the nature of things, that there is no or very limited/no ability for us to change something deep in who we are.

In support of this, I offer the case of fallen angels. When they rebelled, it seems their decision was instantly set in stone. There seems to be no turning back for angels who are spiritual beings. How unfair is that? Just one instance of weakness, and presumably, as far as we know it, eternal condemnation. Just one "moment" -- if we can call it a moment in the spiritual world -- of desiring to be like God or rebel against Him. Eternally fallen. We humans get to sin against God many times over.

With that, I'd question the idea that those who die without Christ are punished for temporary sin. Rather, I'd be more inclined to believe that those banished from God are lost forever because their rebellion against God is/becomes eternal. Those who perish without Christ are kind of locked into their decision after death. There is no turning back. Perhaps due to the nature of the spiritual world? Therefore at death, if we are in rebellion against God, such rebellion becomes an eternal rebellion.

Again, this is all very entertaining to talk about, but we're/I'm postulating about matters I'd consider uncertain. These are just my best postulations.
What we do know is that Christ is the Way and the importance to accepting that way is all placed on this life. There is hopefully some movement hereafter for change, but this is definitely not the impression I get reading Scripture... God's pleading with us to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

I do believe in everlasting hell fire torment for sinners.I believe in hell fire and Gehenna proves it because Gehenna was where people took their trash to be burned and everybody knew where Gehenna was when Jesus used it as an example of hell fire.Think of trash being thrown into a fire. Also Jonah went to hell and came back to tell about it and that is why he went to Ninevah.So a to hell and back story is biblical.