Need some advice

[ageofknowledge]

As a rule, beautiful Christian young ladies do not seek out ugly, poor, unsocialized males with which to date and marry. As a rule, young attractive, successful, highly social males do not seek out unattractive, poor, fat Christian women to date and marry. I have seen both reject the other if they ask them out though. Sure I've seen that. And so has Gabe. That's an observable real fact. You don't like it. Tough. It's the way it is in reality. Don't blame me.

Taking the rare exception to the rule and holding that up as a normal is deceiptful. Women and men typically choose the best they can get within the context of their world (family, belief system, social circles, etc...) as a rule.

Now to understand women so you can more easily connect with them so they naturally like you and guide them to be with you takes an average guy and puts him in an above average category when it comes to choices for dating and mating. And that's desirable.

I admit it's been a journey communicating this. But to pull out everything you don't like that I said and leave out the rest isn't fair. How about I troll your posts and only seek that which I don't like and paint you with it. That's your Modus operandi right?

[Gabrielman]

Age I will repeat myself. I don't believe in psycology. I have myself defied it and so have many others. Also getting to know a woman means getting to know about her, listening to her, being there when she needs you, and understanding how she feels. You have to actually listen to her, no psycology ever said that. Science it's self has disapointed me in a major way. You may rely on science, but I want to rely on what people say, rather who they say they are, not what psycology tells us we are.

I have to add that some of the posts by ageofknowledge are sitting a little uncomfortably with me, it sounds remarkably similar to things I've heard said by those with an interest in evolutionary psychology and dating. More like Sun Tzu than wholesome relationship advice.

I've never had any interest in learning to how interface with people so I can pick friends/spouse from a group of infatuated individuals, cultivating meaningful relationships was always higher on my list and pretending to be, or being, an alpha make who 'got game', from my observations, does not attract the sort of people I would like to have meaningful relationships with.

Gabrielman:

Do you mind if I ask if you have many close female friends? I found it difficult to have close female friends when single and really wanted them, now I'm married with a daughter and a houseful of mainly female animals I've got far more close female friends without really trying. It sort of went from almost no females in my life, aside from my mum and sister, to one female, my wife and just kept going up from there.

I have two close friends who are single and looking for love. One is very obvious in her want for commitment and finds it rather difficult to have meaningful, lasting relationships with men. The other keeps it far more hidden and he has many, very close female friends whom he has meaningful relationships with, I don't mean sex, but finds it very tough to make the jump from great friend to dating. That may not help you in the slightest but as they were talking about it over the past few days I thought I would type it anyway.

Using psychological constructs, like alpha and beta males, to interface with females with the outcome of getting to pick which one you want seems like bad advice to me. Cultivate meaningful relationships with the opposite sex whilst being yourself would be my advice. And to add to what the others have said, close involvement with a church which speaks to your heart isn't going to any harm to that advice.

I like what you said as well, it is how I believed for a while now. To answer your question, I used to have close female friends, they are gone now went their own ways. I actually had intrest in one, she had no intrest in me. I got the "You are more like a brother" thing thrown at me, then she disapeared without saying a word... I always wonder how she is. Anyway, Thanks for your encouragment!

It sounds more of an issue of lack of opportunities with good Christian friends. I agree with nd925, get involved in a good church, have a good support group, get involved with a good young adults ministry where you can talk to the women without the pressure of immediate dating.

That would be the problem as it stands. I have been away from God and am still dealing with some issues, this one being the smallest. (Yet there is so much written about it, which is good for people seeking advice on the same topic.) I am currently looking for a good Church, I want to get involved, make new friends, and move forward. The Lord waited while I was gone, He saved me again. I used to be in Christian groups, did a lot with Churches, I need to get back to that. Thanks, it is meaningful.

In the church groups they usually have monthly activities, some fun, some service. You can get to know them without having to immediately feel like dating.

A good place for me to start!

I meant to reply to this, Gabe....don't ever worry about the physical experience bit. The woman you love won't/shouldn't care about it....in fact we would be quite happy with someone with very little or no experience...of course if you are going after the wrong sort of girl they probably care. In the words of someone I can't remember...physical passion is easy...it's the loving that's hard.

My brother went through his entire undergrad without a date....his first real girlfriend was in grad school....and he had to be hinted at by the singles group leader that his now wife was interested in him....married by 30...

Had to say Thanks for that! It is encourageing.

Gab, It sounds to me like you've got a good head on your shoulders. The best advice I have for you is first and foremost, find yourself a good Bible based church that you can get yourself plugged into. Be an active member of the church, don't just sit on the sidelines. Remember church is not a spectator sport.
Second, form solid friendships with some fellow Christians. Don't worry so much about the girl, that will come. Just be yourself, love God, and be encouraged, God will never leave you or forsake you. Sorry don't remember where that verse is.
Here's a couple of books I've read that I think you might like and may be helpful,
Stop Dating the Church by Joshua Harris - This might be helpful in your quest to find a church.
Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul by John Eldredge - This might be helpful in finding out how you are wired and what makes you tick. I think that is really important to know especially as you are coming to the point in your life where you are thinking about marriage, etc.

Thanks for the book ideas, and I like that advice. Like I have said earlier I have been away from the Lord for too long. This is the second time he saved me. The first time didn't hurt like this though... He is picking up the pices and helping me heal, as are some of you, I must thank you again for that. I should write another testamony. nd925, thanks.

Your biased misunderstandings guide your judgements. There is nothing wrong with taking the time and energy to understand women. You can pretend that this isn't desirable to your goal of dating Christian women and from them finding a wife as all of these people are telling you though there position is illogical, unscientific, and not even scriptural. Nowhere does scripture command us to remain ignorant of the opposite sex because to understand them better is evil. What it tells us to do is flee sexual immorality but also to gain knowledge and wisdom. This is summarized in the verse to be wise as serpents but innocent as doves. This is all bias and prejudice from posters who want to color me in some bad light for pointing this out and that is wrong.

*sigh* Age I am going to give you a little advice. Your ideas match that of some of the cold, heartless, cruel people I just got away from. I will also note that I never really struggled with sexual immorality, though to me it seems you think I have. I had too much else to worry about in life, things which are getting worked out. Also if you make a refrence to scripture to try to prove a point, then show us the scripture! Then you must also think how many of those men thought back then, in a very sexist manner. Even Paul, Lord forgive me for this, seemed like a maijor sexist, that's why I don't like some of what he has said. He made a point in 1 Timothy Chaptter 2 vs 10-12, and I quote, "10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But *I* suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Note the *I*, not God, but he didn't want women to teach. He was a sexist! I don't agree with him in the slightest, so if you are pointing out anything in scripture be sure God said it, and not a sexist of the day, as many of them were.
Zoe, again too much to quote , but I read it all and agree with your analysis. Age... okay let me put it like this. I would rather get to know them by talking to them, say over a cup of tea (coffee is not good with me, but I like it so much! !), than I would learn it from some psycological mumbo jumbo that some man (no doubt) said. I will repeat myself, I spent years doing independent research (I am self educated in most of what I know) in psycology. I read many books, they all contradicted each other. I came to one obvious conclusion, THEY DON'T KNOW JACK! They told me I was supposed to be a shallow, sex driven, perverted, moron! None of the above (er... to the side) describes me! Please stop insiting that psycology knows anything! I actually once had a psycologist, he was visiting my highschool, try to tell me who I was before he even asked me any questions. Not only was he wrong, but he managed to get the exact opposite of who I really was! He thought by watching me he, and others, he could tell us who we were, he was suprised to know he was wrong. I wasn't surprised, you can't tell anything about anyone without getting to know them first. What they like, what they don't, what their hopes and dreams are, you need to get to know them deeply. Then if you are not the type of person they are interested in you should NOT change yourself to fit it. That is lying! That is hiding behind a mask. Let me share a little secret with you, masks hurt, they cut deep, they lie to you, they are heavy, they destroy you!!!! To hide behind a mask and decive others will slowly kill you! You will suffer, you will be in the worst place in life, you will die on the inside. And once the mask breaks, there is nothing left! Do you understand me!? I will not wear that mask, or any other masks!
God bless you all.

[Gabrielman]

As a rule, beautiful Christian young ladies do not seek out ugly, poor, unsocialized males with which to date and marry. As a rule, young attractive, successful, highly social males do not seek out unattractive, poor, fat Christian women to date and marry. I have seen both reject the other if they ask them out though. Sure I've seen that. And so has Gabe. That's an observable real fact. You don't like it. Tough. It's the way it is in reality. Don't blame me.

Taking the rare exception to the rule and holding that up as a normal is deceiptful. Women and men typically choose the best they can get within the context of their world (family, belief system, social circles, etc...) as a rule.

Now to understand women so you can more easily connect with them so they naturally like you and guide them to be with you takes an average guy and puts him in an above average category when it comes to choices for dating and mating. And that's desirable.

I admit it's been a journey communicating this. But to pull out everything you don't like that I said and leave out the rest isn't fair. How about I troll your posts and only seek that which I don't like and paint you with it. That's your Modus operandi right?

AS A RULE!!!!!! DO YOU JUST NOT GET IT! Okay you wanted to make me mad you did it! You just keep trying until you succed! Reality! Do you have any idea what you are talking about! Everyone precives people differently, you obviously want to judge them by "science". Well I got news for ya, science lies! It is a pathetic lie! Time and again darwanists hide the truth about evolution, it is wrong! There are by estiment 8 billion people on this planet! What of the blind who don't see looks, or what of those who find what you call "ugly" attractive. It is not rare, you just don't pay any attention! What gives you the right to think that you know women, or men at that! WE ARE NOT HARDWIRED IN THE WAY YOU PUT IT. Do you really want to know how we are hard wired? Do ya? We are hardwired to seek GOD!!!! I will put him first! Not these ideas that bring no good! You cannot know the heart of anyone by analysis! Let me put it in the easiest way I can, WE HAVE FREE WILL!!!!!! We decide what we want! We make our own minds up! I do not like the women who are considered "hot" by society! (no offense to you women who are, you just aren't attractive to me is all). I am into the "less desirable" women, or as I call them MY TYPE OF WOMAN! If you can analize so much I challenge you, what are my standerds? What kind of woman do I seek? Please tell me, because it is obvious I don't know! Oh wait that's right, I do! My challenge still stands! Tell me! Can you do it! How am I hard wired! Let me know in your next post! Otherwise I will ignore all of your posts!
Aghhh! Why do you presist! I can't even think straigt right now! What is with you and your emphasis on looks only!? I will not be a cold calculating man who "analizes" a womans "hardwiring"! That would make me a lie! That is not who I am! You say that taking the "rare" execptions to the rule and presnting it as normal is deceitful!? How would you know it is rare!? Do you know everyone!? Do you know all the couples across the world!? Aghhh! This is what I hate about science! It pretends to know without facts! I pray that God changes the way you believe.

[ageofknowledge]

The correlations you are drawing are absurd Gabriel. Recognizing reality and learning how to deal with people to get good results does not equate to lovelessness, godlessness, or whatever other negative connotations you are incorrectly drawing.

You're mind is way too set against overcoming the mental and behavioral hurdles you have to get over to get where you want and need to go.

Once you are a girls friend-friend you're no longer a prospect. You have a lot to learn about women and you seem 100% committed to learning it the hard way. The others aren't helping you. They are coenabling a strategy and tactics that won't get you where you want and need to go.

They are right you should be in good Christian single circles teeming with female prospects. Those are the pools you will become a part of. But you're going to have to change your game to get better results. It is insane to do the same thing over and over and expect different results but that is exactly where you're headed imo.

[Gabrielman]

It is insane to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.

What do you imply I do over and over!? You havn't the slighest clue how I have interacted with women in the past! I never told you any of that! To be quite honest I have no intensions of telling you! You still didn't answer my challenge. How am I hardwired!? Tell me! I will not got to Church and Christian groups to look for women! That is a betrayl to God! I don't want to do that!

[ageofknowledge]

You're a man. Men have a common biological template with attributes that can be understood and provide for predictable response. Sure there is variance but most will be within an acceptable variance to the mean. For example, we are visually stimulated. This is hard wired into our physiology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology and one of the reasons Steven advises us to bounce our eyes when necessary to avoid lusting after beautiful women. This is but one of many hardwired attributes that males possess. I thought Dr. Laura hit quite a number of the more interesting ones personally in her book.

Women also possess common attributes as a part of their physiology. Knowing what these are and how to interface with them in a way that makes you a prospect for dating and marriage and not just a friend will get you on your way to where you want and need to go.

And I'm not a sexually immoral person Gabriel. I've been a celibate Christian for over 25 years.. since the day I started to really follow Christ. But I recognize reality and I'm giving it to you. I used to think like you. I used to listen to all the Christian folklore advice. Look where it got me. Single for life. That's the road you're on imo unless you start to educate yourself better on this issue.

[Gabrielman]

You're a man. Men have a common biological template with attributes that can be understood and provide for predictable response. Sure there is variance but most will be within an acceptable variance to the mean. For example, we are visually stimulated. This is hard wired into our physiology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology and one of the reasons Steven advises us to bounce our eyes when necessary to avoid lusting after beautiful women. This is but one of many hardwired attributes that males possess. I thought Dr. Laura hit quite a number of the more interesting ones personally in her book.

Women also possess common attributes as a part of their physiology. Knowing what these are and how to interface with them in a way that makes you a prospect for dating and marriage and not just a friend will get you on your way to where you want and need to go.

And I'm not a sexually immoral person Gabriel. I've been a celibate Christian for over 25 years.. since the day I started to really follow Christ. But I recognize reality and I'm giving it to you. I used to think like you. I used to listen to all the Christian folklore advice. Look where it got me. Single for life. That's the road you're on imo unless you start to educate yourself better on this issue.

YOU PUT TOO MUCH ON SEX! A relationship is not about sex! Yes when you make love to your spouse it is good, but that is not what a marrige is based on! There is a difference in sex and love making, and even I know that! Let me put it like this Age, I have seen time and again people utilze your ideas. They are single now, sad, and they still follow the same ideas! It does not work! I am not out to have sex! I want someone I can talk to, someone who listens, someone I can listen to! I want someone to take walks with in the rain (which I currently do alone), I want someone who is interested in my hopes and dreams, I want to be interested in their hopes and dreams! I seek a creative person like myself so we can work together! There is a lot more than just that, but there is a little about what I seek. Not sex! I want a relationship!
God bless, and stop listening to scientists .

[jlay]

One of my good friends just finally found the woman who shared those Christian morals. No sexual intimacy of any kind until married. He is in his 50s.

[ageofknowledge]

You're a man. Men have a common biological template with attributes that can be understood and provide for predictable response. Sure there is variance but most will be within an acceptable variance to the mean. For example, we are visually stimulated. This is hard wired into our physiology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology and one of the reasons Steven advises us to bounce our eyes when necessary to avoid lusting after beautiful women. This is but one of many hardwired attributes that males possess. I thought Dr. Laura hit quite a number of the more interesting ones personally in her book.

Women also possess common attributes as a part of their physiology. Knowing what these are and how to interface with them in a way that makes you a prospect for dating and marriage and not just a friend will get you on your way to where you want and need to go.

And I'm not a sexually immoral person Gabriel. I've been a celibate Christian for over 25 years.. since the day I started to really follow Christ. But I recognize reality and I'm giving it to you. I used to think like you. I used to listen to all the Christian folklore advice. Look where it got me. Single for life. That's the road you're on imo unless you start to educate yourself better on this issue.

YOU PUT TOO MUCH ON SEX! A relationship is not about sex! Yes when you make love to your spouse it is good, but that is not what a marrige is based on! There is a difference in sex and love making, and even I know that! Let me put it like this Age, I have seen time and again people utilze your ideas. They are single now, sad, and they still follow the same ideas! It does not work! I am not out to have sex! I want someone I can talk to, someone who listens, someone I can listen to! I want someone to take walks with in the rain (which I currently do alone), I want someone who is interested in my hopes and dreams, I want to be interested in their hopes and dreams! I seek a creative person like myself so we can work together! There is a lot more than just that, but there is a little about what I seek. Not sex! I want a relationship!
God bless, and stop listening to scientists .

Err.. what are you talking about? I never said what you think I did. You are confusing my assertion that understanding women and how to interface with them to obtain better results is desirable to the goal of dating and finding a mate must involve sexual immorality. That's not what I'm saying. I'm clearly saying sexual immorality is a sin and to avoid it. You're going to have to stop making the incorrect correlation that understanding women to get better results with them in a Christian context must somehow be tied up in sexual immorality because that's simply not true and not what I am saying to you. You need to grasp the significance of what I'm communicating sans-sexual immorality.

[ageofknowledge]

One of my good friends just finally found the woman who shared those Christian morals. No sexual intimacy of any kind until married. He is in his 50s.

Is it logical for Christians to wait until they are in their 50's to marry as a rule? How do they reproduce if their wife has passed menpause. If every Christian did that, why we'd be out of business in a single generation.

You can maintain your sexual purity and learn how to interface with women to marry one and start a family much sooner than fifty plus. Why do so many Christians always hold up some extreme exception to the rule, such as a man finally finding a mate in his fifties, as if it's normal or desirable for the majority?

[zoegirl]

How about I troll your posts and only seek that which I don't like and paint you with it. That's your Modus operandi right?

they are *your* words said over and over again. You paint yourself with these words.

However, to be fair, here is *your* opportunity to specify....So do enlighten us.

What do you consider proper interfacing with a woman? If asking her out for coffee isn't manly enough for you, then what, pray tell, constitutes a manly interface with a woman, since you are so fond of this term? What would get women to fall at a man's feet so that he can have his choice?

I quoted you saying that one needs a car, money, and game. Then you are upset that I quoted your words back at you.

So let's be quite specific. What constitutes, in your mind, what women want in an interface?!? (other than the best that they can get)

[Gabrielman]

Your implactions have been there the entire time! Read what you write. It isn't even about getting to know them with you! You say they are all the same, and you put forth rules that are not true!

You're a man. Men have a common biological template with attributes that can be understood and provide for predictable response. Sure there is variance but most will be within an acceptable variance to the mean. For example, we are visually stimulated. This is hard wired into our physiology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology and one of the reasons Steven advises us to bounce our eyes when necessary to avoid lusting after beautiful women. This is but one of many hardwired attributes that males possess. I thought Dr. Laura hit quite a number of the more interesting ones personally in her book.

Women also possess common attributes as a part of their physiology. Knowing what these are and how to interface with them in a way that makes you a prospect for dating and marriage and not just a friend will get you on your way to where you want and need to go.

And I'm not a sexually immoral person Gabriel. I've been a celibate Christian for over 25 years.. since the day I started to really follow Christ. But I recognize reality and I'm giving it to you. I used to think like you. I used to listen to all the Christian folklore advice. Look where it got me. Single for life. That's the road you're on imo unless you start to educate yourself better on this issue.

YOU PUT TOO MUCH ON SEX! A relationship is not about sex! Yes when you make love to your spouse it is good, but that is not what a marrige is based on! There is a difference in sex and love making, and even I know that! Let me put it like this Age, I have seen time and again people utilze your ideas. They are single now, sad, and they still follow the same ideas! It does not work! I am not out to have sex! I want someone I can talk to, someone who listens, someone I can listen to! I want someone to take walks with in the rain (which I currently do alone), I want someone who is interested in my hopes and dreams, I want to be interested in their hopes and dreams! I seek a creative person like myself so we can work together! There is a lot more than just that, but there is a little about what I seek. Not sex! I want a relationship!
God bless, and stop listening to scientists .

Err.. what are you talking about? I never said what you think I did. You are confusing my assertion that understanding women and how to interface with them to obtain better results is desirable to the goal of dating and finding a mate must involve sexual immorality. That's not what I'm saying. I'm clearly saying sexual immorality is a sin and to avoid it. You're going to have to stop making the incorrect correlation that understanding women to get better results with them in a Christian context must somehow be tied up in sexual immorality because that's simply not true and not what I am saying to you. You need to grasp the significance of what I'm communicating sans-sexual immorality.

Every time someone posts that you should ask a woman to coffee and treat them nice you post something (Zoe qouted most of it) saying to ignore them. So what are you getting at then!?

[Gabrielman]

Ok, just one more post for the road.

Blah blah blah... their talk is irrelevant and like following smoke trails around in different directions looking for a fire somewhere you'll not likely find because what they say and do are often two different things.

Women respond to the stimuli they are presented with according to their programming. That's what you need to key in on. Bring your A game and interface with them in a manner that brings forth desirable predictable responses and stay with it honing it as you go. Live it. You'll be the one that ends up with many choices. Afterwards, you can get to know them.

Hehe.

This is part of my point Age. Re-read what you said here. "Women respond to the stimuli they are presented with according to their programming." What are you getting at here, mind you that I do not agree with you. Everything you say seems to point not to a relationship, but rather trying to use women to satisfy what I want, (which is in turn a relationship).
This whole "alpha male" thing is stupid. Someone who pretends to have "game", and money is lying.
The first pice of advice you gave me was to get money, looks (impliyng I have none), and game, and that if I don't have money to pretend I do! Go read it yourself! You told me to be dishonest (against Christian morals) and to go for the girls who want marteralistic things. I want a woman who wants me, not my things. Read what you say and think about how it sounds.

[ageofknowledge]

I'm not upset Zoe. I'm just working through this with all of you. I think my last posts are better than my first. Do what thou will. Peace.

[zoegirl]

See, I offer you the opportunity to clarify what you mean. You are extemely vague with your "interface". If you are truly trying to help, then specify what this means. You have stated that you have very clear ideas about what is manly...but don't offer details.

If you regret your earlier statements then say so, but by all means take this time now to clarify what you think women want in an interface. Why isn't asking a woman for coffee manly and then what constitutes manly interface?