Evidence for God from Science

PaulB007 wrote:I won't lie, a lot of changes will need to be made. I am a terrible sinner. I have a child out of wedlock, a lot of sex out of wedlock.. ect. I am a man who operates on lust. Sex is my drug, I am terrible. I don't care what I do, I use others to my gain, I get what I want and then discard them. I lie compulsively, I use, I cheat.. you name it. And I do this more so than the normal person.

Well, you sound a lot like me before I came to the Lord...only you are nicer! In addition to all of the above I was also a theif, the son of a theif whose father was a theif, and my son became a theif. Like father like son: 4 generations of swindlers. All did time in jail save me...but I was the biggest theif by far.

PaulB007 wrote:I am not holding back out of fear of having to change my life to a more Christlike style, but afraid of giving it up for no reason if this is all fake.

If you do decide to hand over control of your life to Christ, you will quickly be aware that none of this is fake.

FL

DannyM wrote:

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I strongly feel theistic evolution is modern society's attempt to fit creation with God in an attempt to not discredit the religion. I feel you can only have it one way. Man was created in God's image *uniquely* or else religion is false.

In His image had to be spiritual, since while we are dualistic in our existence, we physically look nothing like a Triune God.

I disagree. In His image, 'tselem' is from a root and means 'to cut off' or 'to chisel' ... We are "calved" in God's image. That's not to say we look exactly like God, but I do not believe we are purely His image in a spiritual sense. We are in His image in a number of different ways: physical, spiritual, purposeful, loving, conscious-aware...

This is why theistic evolution simply does not hold plausible for me.

What source are you using for tselem?

Anyway, I don't hold to evolution in any way shape or form, as a cursory reading of my history here will show, including common descent, theistic evolution or any such thing. Paul asked the question and I explained what the options were.

But I am curious as to what image of God you are proposing here? I can't recall offhand that God has any physical flesh and bone characteristics, in fact, Christ had to "become" man, He wasn't man.

PaulB007 wrote:I won't lie, a lot of changes will need to be made. I am a terrible sinner. I have a child out of wedlock, a lot of sex out of wedlock.. ect. I am a man who operates on lust. Sex is my drug, I am terrible. I don't care what I do, I use others to my gain, I get what I want and then discard them. I lie compulsively, I use, I cheat.. you name it. And I do this more so than the normal person. I am not holding back out of fear of having to change my life to a more Christlike style, but afraid of giving it up for no reason if this is all fake.

If we don't believe that the love and grace of God is big enough to cover every possible sin that we commit, then we are all in very big trouble. None of us here are without sin. You may think that you are worse than any of us, but you are not. In the eyes of God we are all sinners, and He paid the price to cover all of our sins.

I am curious though, why would you consider keeping on doing those things if you know they are wrong, regardless of whether you are a Christian?

I come from a Missouri Synod Lutheran church, for those of you who aren't aware its the strictest form of Lutheran there is, coming close to Catholic strict in some ways. They were very "by the book" so to speak. Believed dinosaurs walked among men, that the earth is 6000 years old, that evolution in any form is not real. I am not sure if they still hold this view but in the late 90's early 2000's they did. I came from this type of teaching and because of it, it drew me away because a lot of the things they tried to teach just didn't make much sense scientifically.

I shouldn't have even been confirmed at 15 years old, because even at that point I had started doubting and shouldn't have lied. This has been an almost 10 year problem for me, I am 22 now. Nobody has been ever able to give me the answers I look for. This is the closest I've come, this website.

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I won't lie, a lot of changes will need to be made. I am a terrible sinner. I have a child out of wedlock, a lot of sex out of wedlock.. ect. I am a man who operates on lust. Sex is my drug, I am terrible. I don't care what I do, I use others to my gain, I get what I want and then discard them. I lie compulsively, I use, I cheat.. you name it. And I do this more so than the normal person. I am not holding back out of fear of having to change my life to a more Christlike style, but afraid of giving it up for no reason if this is all fake.

If we don't believe that the love and grace of God is big enough to cover every possible sin that we commit, then we are all in very big trouble. None of us here are without sin. You may think that you are worse than any of us, but you are not. In the eyes of God we are all sinners, and He paid the price to cover all of our sins.

I am curious though, why would you consider keeping on doing those things if you know they are wrong, regardless of whether you are a Christian?

Well, because I've held to the atheist doctrine for a long time. I am a walking example. A lot of atheists will say how moral and upstanding they can be. Maybe some are, but I am one of those who literally says "If we all die in the end and have nobody to be accountable to, who gives a damn?" I might as well enjoy myself and feel good now while I can. While being a good guy and doing what feels right may be noble, its all simply wishful thinking. So why live by it if life is destined to end. Why hold myself to a moral code and restrain myself from pleasure? Why should I care about anyone else? I am not a sociopath because I do feel pain, emotion, I often times feel bad about what I do inside, but I almost consciously tell myself inside that it doesn't matter, nothing matters in the end. Some atheists may point out we should still be good for a numerous amount of reasons, but frankly if we all die and have nothing else, who gives a damn? Once my immediate family dies out I won't be remembered anyway. I lived by true atheist nature and rarely went out of my way for anyone for any reason and served only myself. Note that im not saying all atheists are horrible, but I fall right into you guys' description of how one should act if they would be to follow an atheist world view.

That's how I have always felt for awhile, only lately have I felt an urge to reconsider this stance and I can't explain why. Fear of death? Lack of direction in life? Holy Spirit maybe? It's so tough to say for sure. It's like I was just overcome over a period of time during these past two months, with an urge to find out the real truth. Keep in mind im only 22, most my age don't care about this stuff.

I do promise though, if I come to accept all of this I will change my life and I will start caring and I will do the right thing whenever I can.

Keep reading his word..

PaulB007 wrote:Well, because I've held to the atheist doctrine for a long time. I am a walking example. A lot of atheists will say how moral and upstanding they can be. Maybe some are, but I am one of those who literally says "If we all die in the end and have nobody to be accountable to, who gives a damn?" I might as well enjoy myself and feel good now while I can. While being a good guy and doing what feels right may be noble, its all simply wishful thinking. So why live by it if life is destined to end. Why hold myself to a moral code and restrain myself from pleasure? Why should I care about anyone else? I am not a sociopath because I do feel pain, emotion, I often times feel bad about what I do inside, but I almost consciously tell myself inside that it doesn't matter, nothing matters in the end. Some atheists may point out we should still be good for a numerous amount of reasons, but frankly if we all die and have nothing else, who gives a damn? Once my immediate family dies out I won't be remembered anyway. I lived by true atheist nature and rarely went out of my way for anyone for any reason and served only myself. Note that im not saying all atheists are horrible, but I fall right into you guys' description of how one should act if they would be to follow an atheist world view.

That's how I have always felt for awhile, only lately have I felt an urge to reconsider this stance and I can't explain why. Fear of death? Lack of direction in life? Holy Spirit maybe? It's so tough to say for sure. It's like I was just overcome over a period of time during these past two months, with an urge to find out the real truth. Keep in mind im only 22, most my age don't care about this stuff.

I do promise though, if I come to accept all of this I will change my life and I will start caring and I will do the right thing whenever I can.

Paul, I admire you for your honesty. Most people, Christian or otherwise, won't have the guts to say what you said here.

While we don't purport to have all the answers, hang around and keep asking questions.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I won't lie, a lot of changes will need to be made. I am a terrible sinner. I have a child out of wedlock, a lot of sex out of wedlock.. ect. I am a man who operates on lust. Sex is my drug, I am terrible. I don't care what I do, I use others to my gain, I get what I want and then discard them. I lie compulsively, I use, I cheat.. you name it. And I do this more so than the normal person.

Well, you sound a lot like me before I came to the Lord...only you are nicer! In addition to all of the above I was also a theif, the son of a theif whose father was a theif, and my son became a theif. Like father like son: 4 generations of swindlers. All did time in jail save me...but I was the biggest theif by far.

PaulB007 wrote:I am not holding back out of fear of having to change my life to a more Christlike style, but afraid of giving it up for no reason if this is all fake.

If you do decide to hand over control of your life to Christ, you will quickly be aware that none of this is fake.

FL

I hope to find my way to this same conclusion, friend.

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:Well, because I've held to the atheist doctrine for a long time. I am a walking example. A lot of atheists will say how moral and upstanding they can be. Maybe some are, but I am one of those who literally says "If we all die in the end and have nobody to be accountable to, who gives a damn?" I might as well enjoy myself and feel good now while I can. While being a good guy and doing what feels right may be noble, its all simply wishful thinking. So why live by it if life is destined to end. Why hold myself to a moral code and restrain myself from pleasure? Why should I care about anyone else? I am not a sociopath because I do feel pain, emotion, I often times feel bad about what I do inside, but I almost consciously tell myself inside that it doesn't matter, nothing matters in the end. Some atheists may point out we should still be good for a numerous amount of reasons, but frankly if we all die and have nothing else, who gives a damn? Once my immediate family dies out I won't be remembered anyway. I lived by true atheist nature and rarely went out of my way for anyone for any reason and served only myself. Note that im not saying all atheists are horrible, but I fall right into you guys' description of how one should act if they would be to follow an atheist world view.

That's how I have always felt for awhile, only lately have I felt an urge to reconsider this stance and I can't explain why. Fear of death? Lack of direction in life? Holy Spirit maybe? It's so tough to say for sure. It's like I was just overcome over a period of time during these past two months, with an urge to find out the real truth. Keep in mind im only 22, most my age don't care about this stuff.

I do promise though, if I come to accept all of this I will change my life and I will start caring and I will do the right thing whenever I can.

Paul, I admire you for your honesty. Most people, Christian or otherwise, won't have the guts to say what you said here.

While we don't purport to have all the answers, hang around and keep asking questions.

Thanks. I figure in trying to figure out the solution to this problem I need to be completely honest. I won't make myself out to be some upstanding guy, because im not. Most people would probably be disgusted with me.

PaulB007 wrote:Thanks. I figure in trying to figure out the solution to this problem I need to be completely honest. I won't make myself out to be some upstanding guy, because im not. Most people would probably be disgusted with me.

I'm not. We've all been there. We've all done things we are not exactly proud of.

Keep being honest with yourself, it's a good start.

Yeah true. Well a lot of my problems stem more from science and what not. The moral part of Christianity makes perfect sense to me and would be exactly what a God would want if he existed.

PaulB007 wrote:

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I won't lie, a lot of changes will need to be made. I am a terrible sinner. I have a child out of wedlock, a lot of sex out of wedlock.. ect. I am a man who operates on lust. Sex is my drug, I am terrible. I don't care what I do, I use others to my gain, I get what I want and then discard them. I lie compulsively, I use, I cheat.. you name it. And I do this more so than the normal person. I am not holding back out of fear of having to change my life to a more Christlike style, but afraid of giving it up for no reason if this is all fake.

If we don't believe that the love and grace of God is big enough to cover every possible sin that we commit, then we are all in very big trouble. None of us here are without sin. You may think that you are worse than any of us, but you are not. In the eyes of God we are all sinners, and He paid the price to cover all of our sins.

I am curious though, why would you consider keeping on doing those things if you know they are wrong, regardless of whether you are a Christian?

Well, because I've held to the atheist doctrine for a long time. I am a walking example. A lot of atheists will say how moral and upstanding they can be. Maybe some are, but I am one of those who literally says "If we all die in the end and have nobody to be accountable to, who gives a damn?" I might as well enjoy myself and feel good now while I can. While being a good guy and doing what feels right may be noble, its all simply wishful thinking. So why live by it if life is destined to end. Why hold myself to a moral code and restrain myself from pleasure? Why should I care about anyone else? I am not a sociopath because I do feel pain, emotion, I often times feel bad about what I do inside, but I almost consciously tell myself inside that it doesn't matter, nothing matters in the end. Some atheists may point out we should still be good for a numerous amount of reasons, but frankly if we all die and have nothing else, who gives a damn? Once my immediate family dies out I won't be remembered anyway. I lived by true atheist nature and rarely went out of my way for anyone for any reason and served only myself. Note that im not saying all atheists are horrible, but I fall right into you guys' description of how one should act if they would be to follow an atheist world view.

That's how I have always felt for awhile, only lately have I felt an urge to reconsider this stance and I can't explain why. Fear of death? Lack of direction in life? Holy Spirit maybe? It's so tough to say for sure. It's like I was just overcome over a period of time during these past two months, with an urge to find out the real truth. Keep in mind im only 22, most my age don't care about this stuff.

I do promise though, if I come to accept all of this I will change my life and I will start caring and I will do the right thing whenever I can.

Paul,

That's an admirable sentiment. The good news however, is that you don't have to change your life nor do you have to try to do the right things whenever you can. It's an inside job. Christ has accomplished it and when you share in that heritage what Christ has done is sufficient for salvation. Sure we then look to love Him and walk with Him, but that's our response to what He has already done. We will still stumble and fall. God's love for us is not dependent upon our performance in the past, now or in the future.

Look in the Bible at many of the people God loves and used. The future apostle, Saul persecuted the early church and was responsible for the deaths of many early believers. David, who was called a man after God's own heart committed adultery and ordered the husband of the woman he practically raped sent to the front lines to hide his sin and the child he conceived in that adultery. There is a prostitute in the lineage of Christ.

Sin is serious. I can well understand the pain you feel for your past. Even the forgiveness of God through Christ doesn't always eliminate the temporal consequences of our actions. God however is not the brooding, distant vengeful God that we often mistake Him to be. God himself came into the sphere of our existence in the person of Jesus Christ to provide everything we will ever need to be made right with Him. We are no longer slaves and servants who serve in fear and insecurity. When we accept the gift of Christ's salvation we are born again and adopted, bought with the most precious price ever paid to become sons and daughters of Christ. God may feel pain for what we have done in the past, not just for the affront of sin but also because God loves us and grieves for the pain we bring upon ourselves.

You're a father, albeit in difficult circumstances. We're imperfect. Yet even in our imperfection we can see a glimpse of the love our perfect father holds for us. His love is constant even when we are not. I have 5 children. I've been grieved and disappointed at times in things they have done, but I still love them and rejoice in them for the simple fact that they are my children and I seek to do the best for them I can.

Performance as a Christian is not the basis of our acceptablity to God. Nor is any sinner any better or any worse than any other in the eyes of God. He loves us and meets us where we are. How much easier is it to live without the worry of whether we'll be acceptable to God and earn his favor? Performance comes our of relationship. It's our response to God and has nothing to do with earning anything from Him.

I sense a lot of sorrow and regret in your words and they touch my heart. Repent. Grieve. But know that you don't have to pay God back for you've done in the past. Nobody ever could do that no matter how "good" we attempt to be. When we accept Christ and enter into the fullness of His love and the finished work of his incarnation, life, obedience, death and resurrection, the matter is settled and God looks upon us and sees the righteousness of Christ.

There's no freedom any more precious than to live and walk secure and know God as the loving Father that he is. It's sad that far too often, well intentioned Christians in a plethora of churches and denominations speak of Him and live as if He were Zeus looking down upon us from Olympus ready to hurl lightening bolts. Jesus in the parable of the prodigal son, tells us that His Father is not like that. He not only waits for us patiently to return, but when he sees us on the road far away, He runs toward us to receive us, love us and receive us back into right relationship with weeping, rejoicing and the deepest and greatest love.

There's nothing better in this life or the life to come that is any better.

blessings,

bart

August wrote:

DannyM wrote:

August wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I strongly feel theistic evolution is modern society's attempt to fit creation with God in an attempt to not discredit the religion. I feel you can only have it one way. Man was created in God's image *uniquely* or else religion is false.

In His image had to be spiritual, since while we are dualistic in our existence, we physically look nothing like a Triune God.

I disagree. In His image, 'tselem' is from a root and means 'to cut off' or 'to chisel' ... We are "calved" in God's image. That's not to say we look exactly like God, but I do not believe we are purely His image in a spiritual sense. We are in His image in a number of different ways: physical, spiritual, purposeful, loving, conscious-aware...

This is why theistic evolution simply does not hold plausible for me.

What source are you using for tselem?

Anyway, I don't hold to evolution in any way shape or form, as a cursory reading of my history here will show, including common descent, theistic evolution or any such thing. Paul asked the question and I explained what the options were.

But I am curious as to what image of God you are proposing here? I can't recall offhand that God has any physical flesh and bone characteristics, in fact, Christ had to "become" man, He wasn't man.

I am using Leon Kass- The Beginning of Wisdom: Reading Genesis.

Of course. I was not lumping you in with theistic evolution but rather was giving you my take on how a Christian really needs to be moving near-perilously away from the early Genesis account if he is to hold that we have come from a different species. I believe if there is a common "ancestor" then this is the dust in the ground. However, Genesis does not assert the eternity or fixity of the species. Each species had a beginning in time but there is nothing to prevent adaptive changes occuring within the species.

God became man by God planting a seed in an earthly woman. God can change from spirit to physical shape, for sure, if He so pleases. My take on this- and Lord knows I could be wrong- is that we are in God's image in a physical sense as well as spiritual, purposeful et cetera. I believe God will have an appearance in the afterlife; I believe we are created in this image as well as the non-physical aspects.

I like this Paul guy.

Stick around Paul, don't let the world make a monkey out of you.

Can you imagine what an awesome testimony Paul will have when and if he comes to Christ. He rejected 'religion,' which makes him have a lot in common with Jesus and the Apostle Paul right off the bat.

Thank you for all your kind words. I can feel my heart reaching out, I just need some time to fight back my ever curious and doubting mind. Skepticism is certainly healthy but I have quite an exaggerated case of it! Bare with me guys im trying.