Evidence for God from Science

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:Danny, What polls are you referring to? I only responded to a poll in Texasmomof3"s post about believing in "God". If you have a poll that asks specifically if someone believes in the Gospel of the Bible and justification by faith alone, then show me those polls. Otherwise, like I said before, The overwhelming majority of Saudis believe in God. Is Saudi Arabia a Christian nation?

Rick, and what is wrong with TM3's poll? Your analogy with Saudi is bogus because it is not a Christian nation. America is a Christian nation and a poll that comes out with 9 out of 10 people believing in God automatically means that the overwhelming majority of those polled would be Christians (since the poll is being conducted in a Christian nation), and therefore the overwhelming majority of the 90% in favour of God are going to be in favour of the Christian concept of God. Now, your point is that many of these Christians are not only small-c Christians; my question is how on earth do you know this? Listen, I'm not presuming to know more than you about your own country; I'm merely asking how you are measuring how many Christians do not fit your criteria?

Danny, if the poll says that 9 ot of 10 people believe in God, and that poll was accurate(because we know all polls are accurate representations of an entire nation ), that would say that the country overwhelmingly believed in God. That doesn't necessarily mean the God of the Bible. You are going on the assumption that America is a Christian nation before the poll was given. Isn't that circular reasoning? I've lived here all of my life, and I know for a fact that 90 % of Americans are NOT born-again Christians. If you really believe that, then you need to revisit to see for yourself.

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:Danny, you keep saying that America is a Christian nation, but you won't say specifically what makes it so. Please tell me SPECIFICALLY why you believe America to be a Christian nation by your definition. Thanks

The crucial role of Christianity in that great nation's formation is clear, as Revolutionary leader Patrick Henry said: "It cannot be emphasised too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship."

Now, when you call America secular, what/who are you referring to? Government and institutions?

Danny, I never said America wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian principles. America in 2010 is NOT a Christian nation. I never called America secular, someone else did.

RickD wrote:Danny, if the poll says that 9 ot of 10 people believe in God, and that poll was accurate(because we know all polls are accurate representations of an entire nation ), that would say that the country overwhelmingly believed in God. That doesn't necessarily mean the God of the Bible. You are going on the assumption that America is a Christian nation before the poll was given. Isn't that circular reasoning? I've lived here all of my life, and I know for a fact that 90 % of Americans are NOT born-again Christians. If you really believe that, then you need to revisit to see for yourself.

Rick, then can you explain to me why America is not a Christian nation? Here's what you said to TMO3,

RickD wrote:Texasmomof3, I never said that our nation was founded to get away from Christian principles. I said, part of the reason it was founded was to get away from the "christian" nation that our founders left. Notice I said "christian" with a small "c". The Country our founding fathers left was a "christian" nation with a small c..

What country are you talking about?

RickD wrote:It was not a nation of people who were born-again believers..

Again, what country and how do you know whether or not they were born again?

RickD wrote:Neither is The United States. You talked about a poll where 9 out of 10 people believe in God. Well, that is not relevant. I'm sure Satan believes in God. Does that make him a born again Christian? (notice the Capital C ) ..

What is irrelevant is your talk of satan. Those polled would not have answered Yes to belief in God if they were atheists or hated the concept of God.

RickD wrote:Yes, part of why our country was founded was to worship freely. If the United States is ever forced to be a "christian " nation by any man's definition of "christian", we will lose our freedom to worship freely. Oh, by the way, try asking that "poll" question to the people of Saudi Arabia. How many there do you think would say they believe in "God"? I rest my case.

Again, you are failing to distinguish between a nation with a majority of Christian people and secular institutions; I noted that you brought Mr. Obama into the conversation a while back, and his governmental stance has no bearing on the beliefs of the nation at large.

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:Danny, you keep saying that America is a Christian nation, but you won't say specifically what makes it so. Please tell me SPECIFICALLY why you believe America to be a Christian nation by your definition. Thanks

The crucial role of Christianity in that great nation's formation is clear, as Revolutionary leader Patrick Henry said: "It cannot be emphasised too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship."

Now, when you call America secular, what/who are you referring to? Government and institutions?

Danny, I never said America wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian principles. America in 2010 is NOT a Christian nation. I never called America secular, someone else did.

Rick, my apologies. So if America is not secular then what is it?

Danny, I guess we are stuck at what you and I believe "Christian" means. If you mean that we are a Christian nation because the majority of people here believe in God, then I have no argument with that. Saudi Arabia is a Muslim nation because the overwhelming majority of its people are Muslim, and there is Sharia law there. You can't separate the two. America has no "Christian" law of rule. I'm not saying America didn't start out as a Christian nation, just that in 2010 it isn't.

RickD wrote:Danny, I guess we are stuck at what you and I believe "Christian" means. If you mean that we are a Christian nation because the majority of people here believe in God, then I have no argument with that. Saudi Arabia is a Muslim nation because the overwhelming majority of its people are Muslim, and there is Sharia law there. You can't separate the two. America has no "Christian" law of rule. I'm not saying America didn't start out as a Christian nation, just that in 2010 it isn't.

Rick, "Christian" means to believe in Christ Jesus, all his works and his glory. Now, I'm sure there are some so-called Christians out there who do not really hold to this; they are not Christians. But I was keen to know how you came to the opinion that America could only be a small-c Christian nation due to many Christians only being of the small-c type (personally, I'd rather call then non-Christians ).

Now, if you're also concerned about the number of secular institutions, political correctness et cetera in society then, brother, I can empathise with you wholeheartedly on this. I used to rave that Britain was no longer Christian. But I realised that, actually, it IS still overwhelmingly Christian, but that, increasingly, government "morality" and standards in public life did not reflect the Christian ethic and the Christian reading of things.

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:Danny, I guess we are stuck at what you and I believe "Christian" means. If you mean that we are a Christian nation because the majority of people here believe in God, then I have no argument with that. Saudi Arabia is a Muslim nation because the overwhelming majority of its people are Muslim, and there is Sharia law there. You can't separate the two. America has no "Christian" law of rule. I'm not saying America didn't start out as a Christian nation, just that in 2010 it isn't.

Rick, "Christian" means to believe in Christ Jesus, all his works and his glory. Now, I'm sure there are some so-called Christians out there who do not really hold to this; they are not Christians. But I was keen to know how you came to the opinion that America could only be a small-c Christian nation due to many Christians only being of the small-c type (personally, I'd rather call then non-Christians ).

Now, if you're also concerned about the number of secular institutions, political correctness et cetera in society then, brother, I can empathise with you wholeheartedly on this. I used to rave that Britain was no longer Christian. But I realised that, actually, it IS still overwhelmingly Christian, but that, increasingly, government "morality" and standards in public life did not reflect the Christian ethic and the Christian reading of things.

Danny, I don't have a problem with someone calling America a christian(small c) nation, because I can seehow someone would see America as christian in the generic meaning of christian. There is no Christian rule of law in America, and far too many non born-again Christians to even think that America is a Christian nation. I don't call Christians who aren't born-again "non-christians", just maybe non-Christians. Similar to the difference between God and god. One is the True God and one is not the True God. One is a true Christian and one is not a true Christian.

RickD wrote:Danny, I don't have a problem with someone calling America a christian(small c) nation, because I can seehow someone would see America as christian in the generic meaning of christian. There is no Christian rule of law in America, and far too many non born-again Christians to even think that America is a Christian nation. I don't call Christians who aren't born-again "non-christians", just maybe non-Christians. Similar to the difference between God and god. One is the True God and one is not the True God. One is a true Christian and one is not a true Christian.

Forget the small-c, big-C stuff! The correct term is nominal Christian, that is a Christian in name and culture only. America, then, would be a nominally Christian nation, as would Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the U.K. and so on.

Carry on.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

RickD wrote:Danny, I don't have a problem with someone calling America a christian(small c) nation, because I can seehow someone would see America as christian in the generic meaning of christian. There is no Christian rule of law in America, and far too many non born-again Christians to even think that America is a Christian nation. I don't call Christians who aren't born-again "non-christians", just maybe non-Christians. Similar to the difference between God and god. One is the True God and one is not the True God. One is a true Christian and one is not a true Christian.

Forget the small-c, big-C stuff! The correct term is nominal Christian, that is a Christian in name and culture only. America, then, would be a nominally Christian nation, as would Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the U.K. and so on.

Carry on.

FL

Thank you, that is what I've been trying to say.

"The proportion of the [American] population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001." ARIS Study, 2001. (It reached 76.0% in 2008.)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

The way I see it, if you are going to determine how many of this 76% (while searching I found differing results, ranging from 67% to 81%, so settled on this figure for balance) are "real" Christians then you are going to need to have looked into the heart of every one of the 76%. God alone, when all is said and done, decides who are "real" Christians and who are not.

"Can America still be called a Christian nation? It is certainly a more religiously pluralistic and diverse society than it was during the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. There are increasing numbers of non-Christians immigrating to this country, and there has been a rapid rise in adherents to Islam among our population. There are millions of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Unitarians, Hindus, Wiccans, Naturists, Agnostics, and Atheists, but Christians comprise roughly 84%[*] of the population. Our constitutional legal system is still based on the Jewish/Christian Bible, not the Koran or other holy book. We still observe Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, as an official holiday. Easter and Christmas still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench. Our coins still display the motto "In God We Trust." The US is still firmly part of a Western Civilization fashioned by a Judeo-Christian religious ethic and heritage. Alexis de Tocqueville observed more than a century and a half ago, "There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America." That is still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation where all are free to practice their particular religion, in accommodation with other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation, which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may properly be referred to as a Christian nation."

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... g0040.html

*I realise this figure is debatable.

The article is from 2001, and if anything has changed or is simply plain wrong in the above conclusion of the article then I apologise, and please let me know what these changes/inaccuracies are...

I'm done debating this point. America is christian only in a generic or nominal sense of the word. Roman Catholocism and Biblical Christianity differ on some very key doctrines, so quoting a Catholic article doesn't help your argument IMO. But, that may be for another topic. I stand by my opinion, and this is my last post on this subject.

RickD wrote:I'm done debating this point. America is christian only in a generic or nominal sense of the word.

Yes Rick, you keep saying that but have offered not a shred of substance to the claim.

RickD wrote:Roman Catholocism and Biblical Christianity differ on some very key doctrines, so quoting a Catholic article doesn't help your argument IMO. But, that may be for another topic.

Huh? The link has NOTHING to do with biblical doctrine and everything to with its take on whether or not America is still a Christian country. Where does biblical authority vs Roman Catholicism come into it? The article approaches the very question we are debating...

RickD wrote:I stand by my opinion.

Yes, while refusing to substantiate.

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:I'm done debating this point. America is christian only in a generic or nominal sense of the word.

Yes Rick, you keep saying that but have offered not a shred of substance to the claim.

RickD wrote:Roman Catholocism and Biblical Christianity differ on some very key doctrines, so quoting a Catholic article doesn't help your argument IMO. But, that may be for another topic.

Huh? The link has NOTHING to do with biblical doctrine and everything to with its take on whether or not America is still a Christian country. Where does biblical authority vs Roman Catholicism come into it? The article approaches the very question we are debating...

RickD wrote:I stand by my opinion.

Yes, while refusing to substantiate.

OK Danny, fine. You are using a Catholic article to state that America is Christian. The Catholic point of view is that Catholicism is Christian. I don't agree with that. While I do think Catholicism is "nominally" Christian. I'm sure it's possible to be saved in the Catholic church, but that certainly is not the norm. Many of my wife's family has come out of Catholic bondage and into a relationship with Christ. So, a Catholic article doesn't prove anything to me. Danny do you actually believe that over 50 % of Americans are born-again believers? Seriously, think about that. If not, then your argument fails.

RickD wrote:I'm sure it's possible to be saved in the Catholic church, but that certainly is not the norm.

How do you know that?

Danny, that article talks about how our country was founded. I don't disagree, and have said that America was founded on a lot of Biblical principles. If that is why you are calling America a Christian nation, then, my point is that we as a nation(people and government) have gotten too far away from those principles.