Evidence for God from Science

osirisravanz,

I believe we all agreed that evil was not a prerequisite for choice.

It sounds like you have been influenced by open theism.

God asked the questions of Adam (Gen. 3:9, 11) so that he would have the chance to confess. Instead he and Eve started passing the blamed.

He asked the questions of Cain (Gen. 4:9-10) for the same reasons. Cain lied and tried to avoid the subject. God clearly knew what had happened, because He told Cain that Abel's blood was crying out from the ground.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah and the two Angels, I believe God was demonstrating His justice to Abraham. He would "check it out " before destroying it. I believe this is further demonstrated in the following verses where God lets Abraham set the requirments for their destruction. Abraham could not then claim God had been too harsh. God knew all along that there were not even 10 righteous men there.

A last example in which God clearly knew what would happen is in Jonah. Even Jonah knew that God would not destroy Nineveh when the people repented (Jonah 3:9-10, 4:2).

Another thing to keep in mind is that this creation is only the very good creation, not the perfect creation. God gave both angels and man the freedom to choose, in this one, knowing that they would sin. God is using this creation as the stage to end evil and then He will create the perfect creation, New Heavens and New Earth, in which sin will never enter (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-2, 27). Only the humans and angels who made their free choice to follow the LORD, in this creation, will enter the New Creation.

Since God chose us for salvation even before time began (2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2) it is impossible for Him to have made a mistake. He already knew what would happen and had made a way of salvation before the universe, earth, Satan or Adam even existed.

Free will is not a consequence of evil but rather evil is a consequence of free will. Only a loving God would permit free will, free choice to His creation

God asks Adam where he is, and Cain where Abel is, so as to encourage them respectively to own up. God is looking for responsibility to be taken for their actions. God knows where Adam is, and He knows where Abel is and what had happened to him, but He is looking for Adam and Cain to stand up and be counted. Regarding God's omniscience, has the OP considered that He knew that Adam and Cain would need encouraging in order to own up and/or feel any remorse?

I'm astounded that the OP apparently hasn't even considered that this is the very foundation of consciousness, awareness of one's own actions and taking responsibility for these actions.

It's a shame when people don't stop to take a proper look at why God has 'acted' in the way He has...

This post is in the Science and God section because I want the believer and the non believer to participate in this discussion. Thanks Dayage for trying to back up your opinion with some scripture I appreciate that. For the rest of you, your interpretations of Gods reason for why he allowed satan in the garden in the first place is just that your own personal interpretation. I know that my post is my own personal interpretation as well, however im trying to find the truth. What im looking for is hardcore scripture to back up your claims, im really not hear for the sake of debating im hear because im upset with God, and I need some answers.

osirisravanz wrote:This post is in the Science and God section because I want the believer and the non believer to participate in this discussion. Thanks Dayage for trying to back up your opinion with some scripture I appreciate that. For the rest of you, your interpretations of Gods reason for why he allowed satan in the garden in the first place is just that your own personal interpretation. I know that my post is my own personal interpretation as well, however im trying to find the truth. What im looking for is hardcore scripture to back up your claims, im really not hear for the sake of debating im hear because im upset with God, and I need some answers.

Oh, but I thought you were here to teach us? I'm still waiting to learn a single piece of new information from you...

dayage wrote:osirisravanz,

I believe we all agreed that evil was not a prerequisite for choice.

It sounds like you have been influenced by open theism.

God asked the questions of Adam (Gen. 3:9, 11) so that he would have the chance to confess. Instead he and Eve started passing the blamed.

He asked the questions of Cain (Gen. 4:9-10) for the same reasons. Cain lied and tried to avoid the subject. God clearly knew what had happened, because He told Cain that Abel's blood was crying out from the ground.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah and the two Angels, I believe God was demonstrating His justice to Abraham. He would "check it out " before destroying it. I believe this is further demonstrated in the following verses where God lets Abraham set the requirments for their destruction. Abraham could not then claim God had been too harsh. God knew all along that there were not even 10 righteous men there.

A last example in which God clearly knew what would happen is in Jonah. Even Jonah knew that God would not destroy Nineveh when the people repented (Jonah 3:9-10, 4:2).

Another thing to keep in mind is that this creation is only the very good creation, not the perfect creation. God gave both angels and man the freedom to choose, in this one, knowing that they would sin. God is using this creation as the stage to end evil and then He will create the perfect creation, New Heavens and New Earth, in which sin will never enter (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-2, 27). Only the humans and angels who made their free choice to follow the LORD, in this creation, will enter the New Creation.

Since God chose us for salvation even before time began (2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2) it is impossible for Him to have made a mistake. He already knew what would happen and had made a way of salvation before the universe, earth, Satan or Adam even existed.

Excellent answers!
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osirisravanz wrote:This post is in the Science and God section because I want the believer and the non believer to participate in this discussion. Thanks Dayage for trying to back up your opinion with some scripture I appreciate that. For the rest of you, your interpretations of Gods reason for why he allowed satan in the garden in the first place is just that your own personal interpretation. I know that my post is my own personal interpretation as well, however im trying to find the truth. What im looking for is hardcore scripture to back up your claims, im really not hear for the sake of debating im hear because im upset with God, and I need some answers.

We are granting your request and giving you answers.

Dayage gave a very good response - if you are here to learn - what do you learn from his answers?
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The Genesis story mentions a serpent, it does not mention Satan. Everyone “assumes” it is Satan, but the word “Satan” is not found anywhere in the entire Book of Genesis.

Did God make a mistake? If he were human, maybe. But the problem is you are talking about God. If you are capable of understanding the mind of a God then it is your call to make. Otherwise, perhaps like the rest of us, you are condemned to perplexity regarding the mystery of his ways. About the best one can do, IMO, is have faith that it will all work out well in the end.

B.W the only thing i am hear to teach is that choice and free will are totally independent of the knowledge of good and evil, therefore it is not necessary for us to have sin in the world in order for us to know that God loves us. The Angels prove that. Remember there was no evil in the world or sin until Satan first decided to go against God. So did the Angels not know of Gods love before Satan deceived them? The Angels also prove that free will and choice was indeed a part of there existence in heaven before Satan in his pride decided to go against God.

What I learned from dayage is that God might have been trying to get Adam to confess his sins so that is why hi said "where art thou Adam".

Coldblood , we know beyond a shadow of a dought that the serpent was indeed satan , we know this by the prophecy of jesus foretold in Genisis regarding the serpent. ." 14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

B. W. wrote:

osirisravanz wrote:@B.W this is my topic " I think God made a mistake or he's insane" explain how refining precious metals is related?

It involves a process to remove dross (impurities). It takes intelligence, planning, preparation, process before the final product can be had. You can't make a mistake nor be insane about this type of work.
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This may be a moot point but I don't see sanity as being directly linked to the ability to refine precious metals. One can be certified insane and still have the ability to refine precious metals. The ability to refine precious metals does not guarantee clinical sanity - if it did psychiatrists would have refineries in every mental institution instead of consultation rooms. If all it took to avoid the label of insanity was to refine precious metals I'd venture the diagnosis of insanity would drop like a lead balloon.

osirisravanz wrote:This post is in the Science and God section because I want the believer and the non believer to participate in this discussion.

These are theological questions.. Not scientific ones.. Do you know the difference between the two?

osirisravanz wrote:Thanks Dayage for trying to back up your opinion with some scripture I appreciate that. For the rest of you, your interpretations of Gods reason for why he allowed satan in the garden in the first place is just that your own personal interpretation. I know that my post is my own personal interpretation as well, however im trying to find the truth. What im looking for is hardcore scripture to back up your claims, im really not hear for the sake of debating im hear because im upset with God, and I need some answers.

Free will.. God offers free will to everyone. Including the devil.. What is your point?

Gman you think that since you are the board admin, that you have the final word! All you do is give your opinion with no references. Its is the God and Science section because the discussion will affect the atheist and all manner of theism, we just have not got to that part of the discussion yet. Remember the core of this sites defense against non Christian beliefs is free will and choice and how it would not be present without evil in the world, everything you believe hinges on that , that is why its in the Science and God section. The only reason the atheist have not already broken down this weak foundation of a belief system is because they don't have understanding of scripture. I am not saying that i have understanding of all scripture, but i do have understanding of most of it.

I personally think the problem of evil and a benevolent God is a mute point. All that is required to make such an argument mute is that a benevolent God has sufficient reason for allowing evil to be in the world. And I can think of several reasons why God allows evil to remain in the world.

I think it obvious Adam and Eve were ultimately responsible for their decisions against God, even if God allowed Satan in the world. All that is required is God had a sufficient reason for allowing Satan into creation to tempt Adam and Eve, and again I can think of several.

What is a more difficult argument to respond to are ones based on the extent of evil. Why does a benevolent God allow evil to exist in the world to the extent that it does? Furthermore, can God seriously hold persons accountable for not seeing Himself as all-loving if all they ever experienced in life was extreme hatred. I recall reading one example in particular which just made my heart break. What reason was there for a benevolent God allowing evil in such individual cases, or to the extent that was found in the holocaust? These are much more difficult questions to respond to.

Kurieuo, and what might that be, this sufficient reason, for God to allow evil into the world. let me guess , for his own pleasure? or so that we will appreciate who God is and what he has done for us by delivering us from evil, or how else would we know what he has done, without deliverance from evil. none of witch is scriptural. Oh do suprise me Kurieuo! You guys make these grand claims with no biblical evidence to support it. For God never said that he allowed Sin into the world so that free will or choice can be manifested, or that it abounds so for his own pleasure or so that we will appreciate who he is and what he has done for us. But what he did say was "if you will not praise me I will make the rocks praise me"